In the beginning...

[Guru312 0]

I posted a question in the Safety/Training forum a few days ago concerning night tandem jumps. I also corresponded with a few people about this issue.

Bottom line is that USPA 'discourages' such an activity and specifically prohibits students from jumping during darkness.

In my correspondence to people I mentioned that when I first started sport jumping, June 1960, I was not permitted to jump a 7 gore TU rig...too dangerous: only the Army team was permitted that luxury.

Also, at that time, we were told we couldn't use a sleeve retainer line because it would entangle and cause a malfunction. [Holding tension and chasing sleeves were two reasons for having women on the DZ back then...remember that chauvinism?]

Again around that time, we were discouraged from making contact in freefall. The time period was just before the first batan pass. [Steve Snyder and who?]

AFF and the idea of tandem jumping wasn't in anyone's mind in the early 60s.

Now, finally, my point...if many of the things we did way back then were discouraged or prohibited how did they ever get changed to be what they are?

Can anyone add some factual history on the development of any of the above? Maybe some sort of a time line?

Or just your recollection of 'how things were'...in the beginning...

I have a reason for wanting night tandems...and I want to hear the historical aspects of our development into what jumping is today for a clues in how to get the USPA to say OK to night tandems...as they did with all of the issues I've mention above.

Thanks. My memory may be off on some of the stuff so I'm asking the olde farts what they remember.

Your comments, please.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[GreenLight 5]

I'm not really that old of a fart but the first thing that comes to mind regarding night tandems is the loss of a very expensive main canopy if it is cut away. Also, landings are not usually on your feet when jumping tandem. Night dives are for experienced jumpers, so unless the passenger is licensed for night dives it would be against the BSRs. I doubt if any USPA DZ would ever allow it. But as you say, things change over time.

Next?

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Snyder passed the baton with Charlie Hilliard. He went on to become a World Champion in airplane aerobatics, owned a big Ford dealership in Ft. Worth and got killed in a crazy taxiing accident.

[mjosparky 3]

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Snyder passed the baton with Charlie Hilliard. He went on to become a World Champion in airplane aerobatics, owned a big Ford dealership in Ft. Worth and got killed in a crazy taxiing accident.

If is sort of funny, both of them died in old war birds.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Tink1717 2]

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I have a reason for wanting night tandems...

And that would be???

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Guru312 0]

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Quote

I have a reason for wanting night tandems...

And that would be???

I'd love to discuss it but I think I could be in violation of the DZ.com rules which state:

"You will not advertise or solicit other members to buy, sell or peruse any products or services for that purpose through this discussion forum."

I'm an inventor/designer. I created something for which I'm attempting to get venture capital. Strange as it may seem, night tandems would play a part in the activitiy. My idea is for an activity which would take place on a DZ or airport after dark.

The activity would extend the operation hours of the DZ into night time when the activity is appreciated more. When the time comes I'll be contacting Sangiro about advertising to DZ owner/operators.

I don't have anything to sell because I need the venture capital to get into operation. I don't have a company in which you could buy stock so I'm not selling stock either.

A determination of whether I'm selling something is on the edge...just like the idea.

Moderator: If this post violates the rules do what you need to do...and I apologize.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[skypuppy 1]

I have a reason for wanting night tandems...and I want to hear the historical aspects of our development into what jumping is today for a clues in how to get the USPA to say OK to night tandems...as they did with all of the issues I've mention above.
__________________________________________________

I'm sure Bill Booth has probably done night tandems with his daughter, underaged. But I'm equally sure he will say it is not a good idea for anyone else and that it would not be condoned by Relative Workshop.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[airtwardo 6]

This thread goes directly to the point you're making...


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=266298;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

An interesting read.

Quote

.... around that time, we were discouraged from making contact in freefall. The time period was just before the first batan pass. [Steve Snyder and who?]

***

~Gotta agree with ya Guru,

I had to have a couple hundred 'round' jumps before
being trusted on one of those KILLER squares!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[PhreeZone 15]

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My idea is for an activity which would take place on a DZ or airport after dark.

The activity would extend the operation hours of the DZ into night time when the activity is appreciated more.

Good, maybe we can have another round of drunk skydivers hooking themselves into the ground at night! A few honest questions are when was your last tandem, are you a current TM, how many tandems do you have and when was your last night jump?

Even in the 6 years I've been jumping I've seen a change in night jumps. There has been an upswing in the % of DZ's running large turbine planes for night jumps. Also people are flying much smaller canopies then years ago. That increases the danger factor by a lot since now canopy collisions are an increased possiblity. Also there seems to a percentage of the skydiving population that thinks that night jumps are not enough by themselves and need to do them after a few drinks. Some DZ's are now making people stay isolated in the hanger while preping for the night jump and away from the beer.

As a former TM, a Tandem is not just another skydive (Repeated that at least 50 times on the climb up every jump) and its a lot more to process. You could'nt pay me enough money to do tandems at night. Either as a TM or as a passenger.

Plenty of potential ideas get kicked out in these fourms all the time about things people would like to see built or designed for jumping, but where there is an issue is when a company is trying to use the fourms to market a product they have.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bozo 0]

Even in the 6 years I've been jumping
As a former TM, a Tandem is not just another skydive (Repeated that at least 50 times on the climb up every jump) and its a lot more to process. You could'nt pay me enough money to do tandems at night. Either as a TM or as a passenger.
_______________________________________________
You just showed us your ability level......I have done tandems at night.....it isnt that big of a deal.
6 years ? LOL

bozo

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[slug 1]

Hi PZ

I agree you have valid concerns

But your sounding like a old fart way before your time.

They won'y listen anyway You'll just be older



R.I.P.

[skybill 19]

Hi 312,
Night Tandems eh?? Sure, but why?? First jump night AFF??? How about that too!?? Get my drift? Well maybe if you posed the question, you can't see the answer and I'm not the one to try to explain it to you!! BSBD

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[PhreeZone 15]

I know you've got pleanty of demo experience and TI time, how many night tandems Have you done? Would you do them every weekend like any other tandem jump?

As for time in sport.. its increasing every year, about all that can be done short of having a Delorian, a Flux Capisator and an electrical charge of 1.21 gigawatts

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Tink1717 2]

You work for Skyride, don't you?

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[bozo 0]

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I know you've got pleanty of demo experience and TI time, how many night tandems Have you done? Would you do them every weekend like any other tandem jump?
---------------------------------------------------------

The point that I was trying to get across Phree is that you were being judgemental without the background. If we had stopped every innovation in skydiving thruout its history.....where would we be now?
You mention guys augering themselves into the ground under good canopies at night.....its happening now . Wait around a few years and see what the next evolution of our sport produces.
They are talking about landing wingsuits. How many lives do you think will be lost when this, if it does, happens?
Sit back...take it easy.....

bozo

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

• Quote

[wartload 0]

Now, finally, my point...if many of the things we did way back then were discouraged or prohibited how did they ever get changed to be what they are?

Another way to look at this sort of change is to look at who "the powers" were back then, and how the process of change took place. I think that, if you do so, you'll find that you are trying understand an "apples" approach to a solution that now requires one that's more of an "oranges" approach.

I wasn't very close to the USPA back in those days, but what I've gathered is that they made such decisions based upon what sounded reasonable to most of them at the time, then changed them when enough buddies, or other well-known folks, did it the other way for long enough to show that it's safe.

I would hope that the organization has now been professionalized to the point that you could make a formal policy proposal to them, and expect them to consider it on the substantiated merits. That proposal would demonstrate and substantiate the need/problem/opportunity, offer a solution to that need (preferably a couple of solutions, along with compromising modifications), substantiate how the solution(s) are likely to be effective, and discuss how the solutions would be likely to affect the positions of both stakeholders and potential opponents.

Fight bureaucracy with paper upon which logic resides.

[skypuppy 1]

I could buy that if I didn't know some Tandem Examiners who have done night jumps.

I've done a fair number of night jumps, I wouldn't hesitate under the right circumstance to consider a tandem....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[slug 1]

Hi SP

Lets think about this and follow the money

Some tandems are already being done under "questionable weather conditions" Becausee the DZO doesn't want to disapoint the customer

Some people think jumping is a seasonal sport by increasing the operating hours during this limited season will allow more customers to be able to experience the thrill of skydiving.

$$$$$$$

R.i.P.

[Guru312 0]

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Hi 312,
Night Tandems eh?? Sure, but why?? First jump night AFF??? How about that too!?? Get my drift? Well maybe if you posed the question, you can't see the answer and I'm not the one to try to explain it to you!! BSBD

Bill...

No, I certainly don't get your drift. You didn't *read* my post, evidently.

Can't you see the connection you are making with NO NIGHT TANDEMS and the past prohibition of: Tandems, AFF, sleave retainer lines, or contact in freefall.

I've received a half a dozen PMs about this. LOTS of people are doing night tandems.

Explain to me *why* they shouldn't be done. I have a Mensa card in my pocket...I just may be able to understand your answer.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Guru312 0]

Quote

Wait around a few years and see what the next evolution of our sport produces.
They are talking about landing wingsuits. How many lives do you think will be lost when this, if it does, happens?
Sit back...take it easy.....
bozo

Bozo and others...

The sport is evolving. Gear is changing...unfortunately, a bit faster than attitudes.

My questions and comments about night tandems was meant to be a learning experience for myself so I can evaluate the way I'd like to integrate night tandems into my idea.

Imagine landing a wingsuit! Is that needed, necessary, important or safe? Is there a compelling reason to jump off a building, a tall rock or a TV tower?

When I started jumping everyone had two-shot Capewell connectors. Now, nearly everyone has what was once known in the very pejorative sense as 'a three ring circus'. You cannot imagine the arguments the I observed--and was a party to--over the safety and sanity of that wonderful and brilliant invention.

As I've written, times change.

Give me some *reasons* why night tandems shouldn't be considered as an acceptible activity for non-experienced people.

With as little emotion as possible, please.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[wartload 0]

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Give me some *reasons* why night tandems shouldn't be considered as an acceptible activity for non-experienced people.

With as little emotion as possible, please.

I agree with your approach, insofar as it should be policy-neutral and not partisan-emotional.

On the other hand, since you are working toward a change in the established rules, I'd argue that you will need to come up with the reasons why night tandems *should* be considered an acceptable activity for non-experienced people.

Your opposition can cite increased risks involved in making night tandems v. those in the daylight. What is the benefit that you can cite, which will outweigh the increased risks?

Stakeholders in this process (USPA's and the DZ's insurance underwriters immediately come to mind) will also want to know what the net benefit is to them for you to conduct such jumps. In the absence of any clear benefit to them, they will want to establish how much additional liability they are going to have to anticipate by insuring you to do them. If they are underwriting a group policy, the others on that policy are most likely going to end up having to share your increased liability with increased premium costs.

[JohnRich 4]

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if many of the things we did way back then were discouraged or prohibited how did they ever get changed to be what they are?

Someone dared to do things that others considered "crazy". And they did them long enough and safely enough, that others began to realize that it really wasn't that crazy after all.

Examples:
- Johnny Carson's "AFF" skydive.
- BASE jumping.
- Roger Nelson's student training initiatives.
- Bat wings.

If you want night tandems to become accepted in the sport, someone's got to go out there and start defying conventional wisdom and do it. And that will, of course, involve some pain and sacrifice on the part of the person doing it.

[bozo 0]

As I've written, times change.

Give me some *reasons* why night tandems shouldn't be considered as an acceptible activity for non-experienced people.

------------------------------------------------------------

No. You first tell me your reasons for wanting this.
I/we will play devils advocate for you but you need to come clean with your motivation.
I have already done many tandems, that were after dark, for whatever reason.
Guru....you want more than youre providing.

bozo

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[Guru312 0]

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No. You first tell me your reasons for wanting this.
I/we will play devils advocate for you but you need to come clean with your motivation.
I have already done many tandems, that were after dark, for whatever reason.
Guru....you want more than youre providing.
bozo

That's a very reasonable response to which I owe an equally reasonable answer...IF the moderators on here will allow it.

I'm not hiding anything but I am in the process of selling something. I've purposively evaded discussing details because I don't want to be seen as a huckster for the whole idea.

I'd rather be seen as some nutty olde jumper who wants to see night tandems 'legalized.'

That all said, here's the deal. I'm an inventor. I've designed and built a robot for security, surveillance and gaming with gaming being my main focus: more money and more fun in gaming.

Some of you may have seen threads I started about 'making a small fortune in parachuting' and how to make money on a DZ with a non-jumping activity.

And, having been a DZ owner/operator I know that after dark not much happens on a DZ to make money.

I've created a game with a loose quasi-military flavor or feel in which players are members of the 312th CyberForce Commando Group, AIRBORNE. [Any SpecOps types will see the obvious connection to 7th SFG or similar.]

Players of the game are commandos who must infiltrate various locations and 'take-over' facilities and systems associated with the game.

The night tandem connection is this: most players won't want to go through AFF training to become a proficient jumper just to play the game. Since night very much enhances the game night tandems are a part of it all.

I don't 'need' night tandems to make this work. As a matter of fact, tandems night or day, would be a relatively small part of the whole operation.

Anyone reading the above will probably think WTF? And, frankly, if most people didn't think that I'd know I wasn't on the right track.

Simply put, two players team up with one robot and form a 'cyberforce commando team' with the robot being the third member of the team.

I've severely modified a standard golf cart to be totally controllable via computer...and soon, maybe next month...anyone with proper authorization will be able to drive it from anywhere in the world using a standard browser such as you use to access DZ.com.

Any area where golf carts could be driven is a potential site for this game. A DZ already has the land and infrastructure to accomodate the players...players who most of which will NOT be jumpers nor interested in jumping. Some will want to jump as part of the game.

Is that nuts...or what?!

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Guru312 0]

Quote

On the other hand, since you are working toward a change in the established rules, I'd argue that you will need to come up with the reasons why night tandems *should* be considered an acceptable activity for non-experienced people.

...

What is the benefit that you can cite, which will outweigh the increased risks?

Stakeholders in this process (USPA's and the DZ's insurance underwriters immediately come to mind) will also want to know what the net benefit is to them for you to conduct such jumps.
...

If they are underwriting a group policy, the others on that policy are most likely going to end up having to share your increased liability with increased premium costs.

I don't know that I can list benefits other than financial for the DZ operator. AFF and tandems are benefits to the operator financially. Tandem particularly. I corresponded with a guy who runs a tandem-only DZ. That surprised me, frankly.

Your comment regarding insurance underwriters touchs the thing I'm most concerned about: insurance. I'm facing just that because I'm putting people into a vehicle with intelligence.

If I can even find an underwriter no one else is going to paying a higher premium...except me!

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper