slug 1 #51 January 15, 2004 QuoteIt's wierd to read the high-winds hook turn procedure, in light of recent skydiving trends. So anyone ever hook a PC as described? We jumped in Kansas so we were a little behind the times, and backing up a lot of times. We did see a visiting jumper hook his PC in during high winds to get penertration for a nice standup. His timing was perfect. Never had the gut's to try it on rounds and or even squares when I was still jumping. A person can really hurt themselves doing that stuff if they screw up The grapevine back in the day was a little slower and the winds would blow the smoke signals away befor they got to far, but don't remember hearing/reading about any bad accidents. Just folks saying don't do that. So we would just land backing up with minor injuries. The barb wire fences were useful for stopping you from getting dragged to far in case you got knocked out on landing. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mlinda 0 #52 January 14, 2006 I came across your reference to Bob Hill on this Dropzone site and wonder if anyone has any idea whatever happened to him. A number of his Toronto friends have been trying to find him We would appreciate any help you can give us. We're planning a get-together and would love to include Bob if he is still around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #53 January 14, 2006 28'.....American Pap........Starlite....... 300 total on rounds........always stood them up........unless the wind was 15+.........and you could flare if you wanted........worked best for me on the 28' but......... I was 6' and 130 lbs back thenthat might have had something to do with itMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norman8791 0 #54 January 14, 2006 I use to hook my PC in high winds, and did real well with it, until one day, I missed just a little and tore my knee up pretty good. I got better results pulling the front risers down, until just before landing and switching to rear risers, Norm Van Pelt D5555 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #55 January 14, 2006 No, you can not flare a PC in the sense of flaring a square. And I have the broken ankle to prove it. Stand up landings could be as routine with a PC as they are with todays canopies, but there was no flare, per se. You had to be very carefull with control inputs near the ground as it could stall and sink you into the ground. Let up too fast on the steering toggles and it would surge ahead and be on the ground before you were...ala today. Either way could be hazardous to your legs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayne8577 0 #56 January 14, 2006 Yes you can! On a hard turn the PC would pendulem slighty foward with full brakes at the bottom of the turn. Had to be done JUST right! No where near as much as a square! But, only with a turn as you needed the centrifical force of the turn to do it! Otherwise No!Here's to Old Farts in the Wind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #57 January 15, 2006 That's not a flare as much as inertia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #58 January 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe Para-Commander was one of the best chutes ever made, and I think I only had 2 malfinctions on them... I never had to cutaway from a round canopy either - never. I had a Paracommander and later a Sparrow, which was a mini 21' lightweight sort of a PC clone built for RW. Also tried one jump each on a Starlite and a Piglet II, didn't really care much for either of them. You couldn't really "flare" a PC in the sense that you flare a ram air, because rams are wings and PC's are rounds. But I used to get fantastically soft landings with my PC and acceptable standups with my Sparrow by pulling down on the rear risers. The PC landings were so soft that I gave up on wearing paraboots (that's right kids, we used to wear paraBOOTS), for sneakers. Never tried burying the toggles, as it didn't make sense to me. Pulling the toggles down would not only stall the canopy, but would do so by releasing more air out of 6 side slots (3 on ea. side). That never sounded to good for landing a round, so I never did it. I will admit in those days I was a bony 155 lb 6'3" scarecrow, noadays I struggle to stay below 220 lbs and much as I'd love to jump one again am just too heavy for a round. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wayne8577 0 #59 January 16, 2006 True, but like I said , if ya did it right it was, well let's call it a round semi flare! Good imatation maybe?Here's to Old Farts in the Wind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #60 January 16, 2006 Tom, Try to locate a SET-10 if you want to try a round again. Trust me, it's a great chute and won't bust you up. It's a delight to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #61 January 17, 2006 I read in a skydiving magazine, a while back, that many old skydivers used to pull down on the rear risers at the exact instant that they hit the ground, thus lifting themselves up to lessen impact. I wonder who dreamed that up? I don't think anyone did it that way, but maybe some jumpers did. I doubt if it would help much. Everyone I knew pulled the back risers down a few seconds before hitting the ground. A flare may not be the right name, but it did slow down your forward speed for a softer landing. In the 70's I was a pretty scrawny guy and had no trouble standing up a P.C. I even had a couple one foot standups when the wind was just right on a Mark 1. I hadn't jumped a para-commander in over 25 years. A friend had one at a boogie a couple summers ago. So naturally I had to try it. Even though I'm now a fat old man I still stood it up. Kind of like riding a bike....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beermonster 0 #62 January 17, 2006 The PC doesn't generate lift as a product of forward speed in the same way a ram air does, thus flaring the beast would be a futile excercise. What I've found is that pulling down on the back risers just before touch down pulls down on the crown lines that invert the apex and probably force air out and down a bit faster, giving a softer landing. The down side is that if you screw it up, the small amount of acceleration required to inflate the canopy properly again could mean a harder landing. My 2c worth.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wartload 0 #63 January 17, 2006 Quote You couldn't really "flare" a PC in the sense that you flare a ram air, because rams are wings and PC's are rounds. But I used to get fantastically soft landings with my PC and acceptable standups with my Sparrow by pulling down on the rear risers. The PC landings were so soft that I gave up on wearing paraboots (that's right kids, we used to wear paraBOOTS), for sneakers. Never tried burying the toggles, as it didn't make sense to me. Pulling the toggles down would not only stall the canopy, but would do so by releasing more air out of 6 side slots (3 on ea. side). That never sounded to good for landing a round, so I never did it. I will admit in those days I was a bony 155 lb 6'3" scarecrow, noadays I struggle to stay below 220 lbs and much as I'd love to jump one again am just too heavy for a round. I've still got two pair of "Frenchies," or, "Waffle Stomper" paraboots. At some point I quit wearing them for PC jumps, unless I was carrying a smoke bracket on my foot. For landings where I'd either be in the peas or on fairly level grass, I felt that I had more control of how my feet were placed with tennis shoes than boots...sort of like a sports car not doing as well in a collision as an SUV, but maybe more likely to be able to swerve away from a collision than an SUV, I guess. In order to truly say whether or not a PC could be "flared," I guess that depends on how you define that term. We used to refer to "flaring" as a method of landing cheapos and PCs. My own PC was a short-lined Mk 1, and I weighed between 170 and 185 lbs when I was jumping it. Before that, I had a 28' with a 7TU mod. I jumped them both the same way. If I was making a stable and straight approach to the the point of landing, I'd pull the toggles as far down as I could reach, just a few feet before contact. If I timed it right, the canopy would be just about to stall when my feet hit the ground. That would reduce the forward speed-over-ground of the canopy. If the wind was around 5-7 mph, that sort of landing was fairly gentle. Nearly all of my landings, starting with my first jump off static line, were standups. "Flaring" the canopy would also swing my legs forward a bit, putting my feet at a better angle to hit the ground with a little forward drive (unless the grass was wet or there was a fresh cowpie there). I tried the pull-down-on-the-back-risers technique on cheapos a few times, and on the PC once, in a high-wind landing. I remember thinking at the time that it didn't really make much difference, but stalling the canopy did. In case of an anticipated hard landing I guess that it did put your arms into a better position for a PLF, though, than having your hands down by your sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,334 #64 January 17, 2006 QuoteI'd pull the toggles as far down as I could reach, just a few feet before contactInteresting. My "flare" (and we all called it that) was with the back risers (see picture -- the back risers are lower than the front). I tried a toggle flare a couple of times and was unimpressed. I stood my Starlite up more regularly than the Safire I bought once I started jumping again, at least on no-wind days. Maybe "flaring" just gave us something to do at the last second . I quit using boots once I started jumping more regularly, with about 70 jumps. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #65 January 17, 2006 Pulling down the back risers was/is the only way to land a round. Pulling down the steering toggles could leave your arms out at an awkward angle which could be trouble if your attempted stand-up goes bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #66 January 17, 2006 QuotePulling down the back risers was/is the only way to land a round. Pulling down the steering toggles could leave your arms out at an awkward angle which could be trouble if your attempted stand-up goes bad. That's a good point. I do recall a skydiver or two trying to land a P.C. with toggles, but that would be a good way to break a wrist. Doing a chin up on the back risers would be safer in that respect....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beermonster 0 #67 January 18, 2006 Know of one particular rocket surgeon who spent the afternoon watching the Para Planes, Strangle Stars and Flyers landing then promptly went out and broke both wrists flaring a Spearchucker using the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #68 January 18, 2006 Sounds like he was educated beyond his intelligence! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 37 #69 January 18, 2006 Quote[That never sounded to good for landing a round, so I never did it. I will admit in those days I was a bony 155 lb 6'3" scarecrow, noadays I struggle to stay below 220 lbs and much as I'd love to jump one again am just too heavy for a round. I started on t-10's, bought a Comp PC (still have it in my crossbow), and moved on to a Strato Cloud. Still jumped the PC as a second and third rig for jumpmastering. Had jumped a round since about 1984. Busted my ankle up in 1987 and so don't want to try the PC. But....................... In 2004 I bought a Phantom 28 on ebay ofr $60 and jumped it as a main in my modern rig. Glad I hit the peas though. I was about 215 naked when I jumped it. I say go for it!I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #70 January 26, 2006 Have you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #71 January 27, 2006 QuoteHave you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. Quote It wasn't the jumping that gave us the limp you see... It was the partying FOLLOWING the jumping! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #72 January 27, 2006 QuoteHave you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. HEY! I am one of the old "gray hairs" around the dz. I have well over 2,000 jumps on a PC and I most definitely do not gimp around. I have hurt myself under a square more than I ever did under my PC. You are correct on one point...the PC did not flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #73 January 27, 2006 Quote HEY! I am one of the old "gray hairs" around the dz. I have well over 2,000 jumps on a PC and I most definitely do not gimp around. I have hurt myself under a square more than I ever did under my PC. You are correct on one point...the PC did not flare. Easy there Ripcord4... I'm just pokin' fun and at no one in specific... no need to go shakin' your walker at me... ... just kiddin' around... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 6 #74 January 27, 2006 I stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #75 January 27, 2006 QuoteI stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there... That guy must have VERY short arms as the toggles are right in front of your face on the rear of the front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
wayne8577 0 #59 January 16, 2006 True, but like I said , if ya did it right it was, well let's call it a round semi flare! Good imatation maybe?Here's to Old Farts in the Wind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #60 January 16, 2006 Tom, Try to locate a SET-10 if you want to try a round again. Trust me, it's a great chute and won't bust you up. It's a delight to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #61 January 17, 2006 I read in a skydiving magazine, a while back, that many old skydivers used to pull down on the rear risers at the exact instant that they hit the ground, thus lifting themselves up to lessen impact. I wonder who dreamed that up? I don't think anyone did it that way, but maybe some jumpers did. I doubt if it would help much. Everyone I knew pulled the back risers down a few seconds before hitting the ground. A flare may not be the right name, but it did slow down your forward speed for a softer landing. In the 70's I was a pretty scrawny guy and had no trouble standing up a P.C. I even had a couple one foot standups when the wind was just right on a Mark 1. I hadn't jumped a para-commander in over 25 years. A friend had one at a boogie a couple summers ago. So naturally I had to try it. Even though I'm now a fat old man I still stood it up. Kind of like riding a bike....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beermonster 0 #62 January 17, 2006 The PC doesn't generate lift as a product of forward speed in the same way a ram air does, thus flaring the beast would be a futile excercise. What I've found is that pulling down on the back risers just before touch down pulls down on the crown lines that invert the apex and probably force air out and down a bit faster, giving a softer landing. The down side is that if you screw it up, the small amount of acceleration required to inflate the canopy properly again could mean a harder landing. My 2c worth.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #63 January 17, 2006 Quote You couldn't really "flare" a PC in the sense that you flare a ram air, because rams are wings and PC's are rounds. But I used to get fantastically soft landings with my PC and acceptable standups with my Sparrow by pulling down on the rear risers. The PC landings were so soft that I gave up on wearing paraboots (that's right kids, we used to wear paraBOOTS), for sneakers. Never tried burying the toggles, as it didn't make sense to me. Pulling the toggles down would not only stall the canopy, but would do so by releasing more air out of 6 side slots (3 on ea. side). That never sounded to good for landing a round, so I never did it. I will admit in those days I was a bony 155 lb 6'3" scarecrow, noadays I struggle to stay below 220 lbs and much as I'd love to jump one again am just too heavy for a round. I've still got two pair of "Frenchies," or, "Waffle Stomper" paraboots. At some point I quit wearing them for PC jumps, unless I was carrying a smoke bracket on my foot. For landings where I'd either be in the peas or on fairly level grass, I felt that I had more control of how my feet were placed with tennis shoes than boots...sort of like a sports car not doing as well in a collision as an SUV, but maybe more likely to be able to swerve away from a collision than an SUV, I guess. In order to truly say whether or not a PC could be "flared," I guess that depends on how you define that term. We used to refer to "flaring" as a method of landing cheapos and PCs. My own PC was a short-lined Mk 1, and I weighed between 170 and 185 lbs when I was jumping it. Before that, I had a 28' with a 7TU mod. I jumped them both the same way. If I was making a stable and straight approach to the the point of landing, I'd pull the toggles as far down as I could reach, just a few feet before contact. If I timed it right, the canopy would be just about to stall when my feet hit the ground. That would reduce the forward speed-over-ground of the canopy. If the wind was around 5-7 mph, that sort of landing was fairly gentle. Nearly all of my landings, starting with my first jump off static line, were standups. "Flaring" the canopy would also swing my legs forward a bit, putting my feet at a better angle to hit the ground with a little forward drive (unless the grass was wet or there was a fresh cowpie there). I tried the pull-down-on-the-back-risers technique on cheapos a few times, and on the PC once, in a high-wind landing. I remember thinking at the time that it didn't really make much difference, but stalling the canopy did. In case of an anticipated hard landing I guess that it did put your arms into a better position for a PLF, though, than having your hands down by your sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,334 #64 January 17, 2006 QuoteI'd pull the toggles as far down as I could reach, just a few feet before contactInteresting. My "flare" (and we all called it that) was with the back risers (see picture -- the back risers are lower than the front). I tried a toggle flare a couple of times and was unimpressed. I stood my Starlite up more regularly than the Safire I bought once I started jumping again, at least on no-wind days. Maybe "flaring" just gave us something to do at the last second . I quit using boots once I started jumping more regularly, with about 70 jumps. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #65 January 17, 2006 Pulling down the back risers was/is the only way to land a round. Pulling down the steering toggles could leave your arms out at an awkward angle which could be trouble if your attempted stand-up goes bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #66 January 17, 2006 QuotePulling down the back risers was/is the only way to land a round. Pulling down the steering toggles could leave your arms out at an awkward angle which could be trouble if your attempted stand-up goes bad. That's a good point. I do recall a skydiver or two trying to land a P.C. with toggles, but that would be a good way to break a wrist. Doing a chin up on the back risers would be safer in that respect....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beermonster 0 #67 January 18, 2006 Know of one particular rocket surgeon who spent the afternoon watching the Para Planes, Strangle Stars and Flyers landing then promptly went out and broke both wrists flaring a Spearchucker using the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #68 January 18, 2006 Sounds like he was educated beyond his intelligence! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #69 January 18, 2006 Quote[That never sounded to good for landing a round, so I never did it. I will admit in those days I was a bony 155 lb 6'3" scarecrow, noadays I struggle to stay below 220 lbs and much as I'd love to jump one again am just too heavy for a round. I started on t-10's, bought a Comp PC (still have it in my crossbow), and moved on to a Strato Cloud. Still jumped the PC as a second and third rig for jumpmastering. Had jumped a round since about 1984. Busted my ankle up in 1987 and so don't want to try the PC. But....................... In 2004 I bought a Phantom 28 on ebay ofr $60 and jumped it as a main in my modern rig. Glad I hit the peas though. I was about 215 naked when I jumped it. I say go for it!I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #70 January 26, 2006 Have you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #71 January 27, 2006 QuoteHave you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. Quote It wasn't the jumping that gave us the limp you see... It was the partying FOLLOWING the jumping! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #72 January 27, 2006 QuoteHave you seen any of the old "grey hairs" gimpin' around the DZ that used to jump PCs? Based on the condition most of them are in today... I'd say the PC did not flare. HEY! I am one of the old "gray hairs" around the dz. I have well over 2,000 jumps on a PC and I most definitely do not gimp around. I have hurt myself under a square more than I ever did under my PC. You are correct on one point...the PC did not flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #73 January 27, 2006 Quote HEY! I am one of the old "gray hairs" around the dz. I have well over 2,000 jumps on a PC and I most definitely do not gimp around. I have hurt myself under a square more than I ever did under my PC. You are correct on one point...the PC did not flare. Easy there Ripcord4... I'm just pokin' fun and at no one in specific... no need to go shakin' your walker at me... ... just kiddin' around... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 6 #74 January 27, 2006 I stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #75 January 27, 2006 QuoteI stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there... That guy must have VERY short arms as the toggles are right in front of your face on the rear of the front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ZigZagMarquis 9 #73 January 27, 2006 Quote HEY! I am one of the old "gray hairs" around the dz. I have well over 2,000 jumps on a PC and I most definitely do not gimp around. I have hurt myself under a square more than I ever did under my PC. You are correct on one point...the PC did not flare. Easy there Ripcord4... I'm just pokin' fun and at no one in specific... no need to go shakin' your walker at me... ... just kiddin' around... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 6 #74 January 27, 2006 I stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #75 January 27, 2006 QuoteI stood up almost every landing under my RW PC. I grabbed the rear risers and pulled down at the time of touchdown. (or I might have actually been just pulling myself up) I always had my feet and knees together just in case though. So is that a flare? Probably not. LOL! Somebody jumped one here at Perris a couple of weeks ago. It was his first time jumping a PC. He opened at about 3500 and couldn't reach the toggles... Would you have chopped? He didn't... He landed way out there... That guy must have VERY short arms as the toggles are right in front of your face on the rear of the front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
This Site Is For Sale
