Demo jumps

[ojf1982 0]

My university's homecoming committee has asked me if I could jump into the stadium for our homecoming game. Problem is I do not have a PRO rating, but I have heard of others doing demo jumps who do not have a PRO rating. Knowing my drop zone is conservative on issues like this, what do I have to do so I can be able to jump. Feedback on things like insurance, plane would be greatly appreciated.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[DanG 1]

Jumping into a university stadium will require a PRO rating. No if, ands, or buts.

Sorry.

- Dan G

[quade 3]

It has less to do with your drop zone and much more to do with the FAA.

It will be extremely difficult to get the FAA to approve a "Stadium" jump without you having a PRO Rating from the USPA.

The details of Exhibition jumps including Stadium jumps are listed in the Skydiver's Information Manual starting on page 135.

However, depending on exactly how the "stadium" is layed out, this might not be considered a stadium jump at all. However, in ANY case you'll need at least a USPA D License.

You'll probably be better served if you consult one of the local demo jumpers as well as an S&TA in your area for exact procedures on clearing things with the FAA.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Jumping into a university stadium will require a PRO rating. No if, ands, or buts.

There is another way. You can go to your local FSDO and request to demonstrate competency for demonstration skydives. If you can show the inspector you are capable and if the inspector is satisfied that you are capable, they will issue you a letter stating as much. The PRO rating was designed to eliminate/prevent this process. Showing the FAA your PRO rating card eliminates the need to demonstrate competency to the inspector. I have heard of someone that was anti-USPA doing exactly this to be able to perform PRO rating level demonstration jumps. It is easier just to get the PRO rating. The competency letter may not be accepted in a different FAA region.

Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

I'd get the PRO rating... On staduims Accuracy is deadly accurate. Winds in a staduim are weird, I'd talk to some one thats jumped into a stadium before you do it... and big 7 cell canopies are a god send....

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ojf1982 0]

I was planning on a borrowing a Spectre if I was going to do it. Also, the FIU stadium is not a huge stadium, its an open one that looks like it wouldnt be that difficult to land in.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[quade 3]

Again, I refer you to the SIM for definitions.

However, you won't be able to do it in ANY case with only a C License.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I was planning on a borrowing a Spectre if I was going to do it. Also, the FIU stadium is not a huge stadium, its an open one that looks like it wouldnt be that difficult to land in.

I would recommend jumping the canopy you are going to use several times (the more the better) at your DZ, then make a couple jumps into the stadium before hand. Stadiums are deceivingly difficult. The wind does very strange things inside the “bowl” of the stadium. Just don’t under-estimate the difficulty. Contact USPA for insurance. It isn’t cheap. You will need a “D” license to get the insurance if I remember correctly.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

A good majority of the stadiums I've seen would be scary as all get out to jump into. http://www.12thmanfoundation.com/mag/vol1/vol1no14/sight.jpg An example. I don't think I could be paid enough money to jump into something like that.

About 13 years ago, before the other 2 tiers on the far side of Kyle Field (that link) was built, one of the Aggie Skydivers broke both his ankles jumping into that stadium.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ojf1982 0]

I just applied for my D license last week.

I just left a message at FSDO. "Hi, My name is Omar and I want to jump in a stadium." (<--paraphrased) I think when they see the name Omar they are going to send the FBI after me. By the way, I am not Arab.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[PhreeZone 15]

You will still need to file all the NOTAM's and demonstrate the accuracy to please the local FAA official. As for the plane... getting a jump plane and piot for an hour can range from $100 (182) per hour to $2000+ (Casa type). You also need to know how to use WDI's and the like to assist in the spoting and winds. If its homecoming it will probally be with a full crowd and there for your landing area will be cut way down thanks to not being able to use the side lines, end zones or going over a crowd under 500 feet. Odds are that you'll want to jump smoke too since this is a demo... and depending on the game... it could be a night jump... (What are the actual conditions?)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 3]

Did I tell ya to call the FSDO? No.

Talk to a LOCAL PRO and S&TA first.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ojf1982 0]

I know a friend of a friend who owns a C182, also whatever plane I get if I get to jump will be paid by the school. The school is located in southwest Miami and the conditions are usually light winds with temperature in the high 80s to low 90s and the game is scheduled to start at 3:30PM

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[PhreeZone 15]

If the 182 is not a jump plane thats a whole new headache....

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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However, you won't be able to do it in ANY case with only a C License.

I think you only NEED the "D" license to get a PRO rating (not absolutely necessary for demos), and for demo insurance through USPA. Legally you can do a Level 1 exhibition jump w/o a “D” license. It is a whole lot easier (and smarter) to have a “D” license and a PRO rating, but legally not required.

BTW, I do have a “D” license and a PRO rating.

Hook

[happythoughts 0]

I hope Omar listens to you. A local PRO may have jumped this stadium and give a little insight. Omar didn't ask "should I", he asked "what do I have to do so I can". The S&TA in Miami may be a little conservative because of his experience. At 200 jumps, this is your first demo. The demo sounds fun, but try to be objective and listen. A 150 is not a demo canopy. Winds in a stadium are tricky.

[quade 3]

May I refer you to;

SIM Section 7-1 C.1.a. (page 137).

Now, I'll grant you that legally you're absolutely correct in that there is actually no license requirement for any demo whatsoever. I guess your 10-year-old could legally do a night demo into an Open Field and for his Level 1 AFF remain technically legal, but uh, my guess is that if the FAA got wind of it, the operator/pilot of the airplane wouldn't do a second one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DJL 232]

Why not grab a couple of guys with demo experience to jump with you and organize? Depending on the male to female ratio at your school I doubt it would be hard to persuade a few fellas to partake in the jump and post graduation parties/tailgates, etc. A bunch of divers coming in would definitely be more fun than just one.... This way it's someone who knows all the hurdles and can take care of planning, preparation, while you get your paperwork out of the way.

Good luck!
-doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[ojf1982 0]

Well it doesnot look like it is going to happen, I just got the call back from the FSDO office and he said it is over Miami which is congested airspace. FIU is right over the approach to Miami International Airport, Also without the PRO rating it would be very difficult to get approval for such a jump.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

May I refer you to;

SIM Section 7-1 C.1.a. (page 137).

Now, I'll grant you that legally you're absolutely correct in that there is actually no license requirement for any demo whatsoever. I guess your 10-year-old could legally do a night demo into an Open Field and for his level 1 AFF remain technically legal, but uh, my guess is that if the FAA got wind of it, the operator of the airplane wouldn't do a second one.

That is what I said, it is legal, not technically legal, legal. Why would the FAA care if someone w/ 200 +/- jumps did a demo jump after demonstrating competency, filing the NOTAM, used a legal airplane, and followed all the applicable FAR’s?

There are big differences between what is legal and what the USPA says you can do. I recently saw a DZ where the instructor (S/L) had 18 total skydives and that day, fired his reserve in the aircraft (no door) for the second time in his short skydiving career. Why doesn’t the FAA do something? Because they are not breaking any FAR’s. (Well they are, but that’s another issue).

Is doing your first demo jump into a stadium, on an unfamiliar canopy that you are not current under w/ 200ish jumps a wise course of action? I don’t think so. Are USPA’s BSR’s a good idea? I think so.

Hook

[quade 3]

Ok, I think we're on the same page then.

I also have a problem with people that use the concepts of legal and safe somewhat interchangeably.

I guess my whole point was that he's going to be jumping through hoops to do this anyway and that going outside what the USPA recommends and is generally accepted by the FAA probably isn't going to help him any.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,435]

>I was planning on a borrowing a Spectre if I was going to do it.

I took a Triathalon 190 into Qualcomm Stadium. Harry gave me grief about it, jumping a ZP into a stadium, but I figured this was the biggest doggiest ZP canopy in the world and I'd be fine.

Well, I should have listened to him. I had to turn hard to avoid the foul line wires and ended up planing out the entire length of the field. I stopped about 10 meters before the outfield fence.

Moral of the story - take a canopy that you can (and have) sunk into a target. Don't do the demo until you _can_ sink a canopy nearly straight onto a target in zero winds (and light winds, and a light downwind) because those are the kinds of winds you'll see inside a stadium. A 180 degree difference on the stadium floor is not uncommon.

[BikerBabe 0]

Don't let anyone kid you, demos aren't easy! No, I don't have a PRO rating, but I've done several demos into airshows, the Air Force Academy stadium, parks, you name it (the PRO was waivered for us). Stadiums are probably the hardest to do, because of the weird winds, the excitement of all those people, and a lot of pressure to land well and on target (not just peer pressure, either...if you don't, you could get seriously injured!)

Our local DZ did one a couple of weekends ago into a wide open field near a car dealership. Based on the landing area, it was rated a level 1 demo, which meant that we didn't have to have our PRO rating to do it.

The S&TA limited it to D-licensed jumpers, and we had a guy who was on his first demo. Needless to say, even with the wide open landing area, he still landed "out" and almost hit a car.

Don't forget the adrenaline factor, as well. It can make you screw up royally.

I would highly recommend a lot of practice, a big "demo" canopy, and a PRO rating. It's safer for you and for the audience. Also, learn to use WDI's to spot (I think it actually makes spotting easier). Someone around your DZ is bound to know how.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[happythoughts 0]

On the subject of winds in a stadium, you are right on.
Last Sunday night, I was sitting in a pool at a friends house. Three years ago, during Thanksgiving, he did a demo into the Orange Bowl in Miami. He said that as he was coming in, he noticed all the flags at the top of the stadium were blowing IN. All flags were facing IN. He was flying a 200+ canopy. 10 practice jumps on it. Cross-wind landings, everything. Got slammed so hard he crushed his leg. The doctors said he was lucky not to lose it. Stadium jumps are not easy. The winds can do anything.