PhreeZone 15 #51 February 18, 2003 >My course alone was $350, I then had to pay gear rental and double slots for ten jumps, $650. That total comes up to $1,000.00 bub, get your facts on everything. Hmm... My TI and DZO must really like me then since its just a small fee to the TI and rental and jump cost. We have a lot of people that will gladly jump for free with people to help them get the ratings. 500 is about total around here... My camera was 1800 and I'm yet to get a dime back off it. I have got some great boogie shots though Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #52 February 18, 2003 are you saying that you have people that are willing to pay their own slot to go on a phase II jump with a candidate. Personally, I wouldn't let them pay their own slot, they are doing me a favor by just jumping with me. None the less, I am starting to see why the option of finding a new dz for myself is looking better and better all of the time. This guy really didn't do anything to hook me up at all other than fronting my expenses to me and then letting me work them off. It seems that I am paying one hell of an interest rate thoughAs far as cameras go.......did I mention I am poor? I am just happy to have a decent digital on my head at this point. I started out with a Sony Hi-8 (aka a toaster oven) I actually used tandem vids and packing to pay a bit off my rating. The rest of it came from working side jobs in construction and a few tandems themself. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #53 February 18, 2003 > If you want it bad enough, there is a way. Agreed. I just did the strong tandem recert for very cheap; basically just slot cost. But then again I did install an electrical system for the dropzone. There's always a way to do it; there are other ways to pay for JCC training (and even the course itself) than cash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
underdog 0 #54 February 18, 2003 I worked my a$$ off on the pack floor for 3 years to buy all my gear and cameras and get good enough to shoot tandem and aff vid. then i worked my butt off shooting vid to pay for my tandem rating. now i'm happily poor doing it full time. after this season i should be able to save enough to get an aff rating. the moral of the story is if you want it you gotta work for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark135 0 #55 February 18, 2003 wow. how easy it is for people to get things mixed up. Nowhere did i say that the requirments should be lessened. nowhere did i say that the price should be lowered, I made no suggestions at all. simply stated a fact that an aff rating is cost prohibitive to many ppl. those of you who said that you got your ratings "whatever the cost" thats cool. im happy for you. My wife and I cant do that. its hard to feed 4 kids and pay the mortgage if you "give it all up" and thats fine, thats the way the mop flops. those of you who worked so hard to acheive financial security, good for you. im glad your life has gone the way you want it to. Dont forget there are people who have had disasters in their life which have prevented them from attaining their goals. our life is still rich with the sound of laughter and joy of seeing your kids make the grade. I am not whining, just explaining. as far as a fanasy world... well lets see.i have been shooting tandem vids for 3 years so i know the scoop. I know exactly what it will cost me for a tm rating and exactly how many jumps needed to pay that off and exactly how many jumps i can do per weekend. sorry you guys had to pay so much for your level 2's at our dz our level 2's are free. teaching for the joy and giving back? well yes there is that and its true it is rewarding in that respect. i have been a s/l jm for 4-5 years so i know all about that. but how many of you could continue to do that if you didnt get paid? so bottom line is I didnt say anything about lowering the requirements. Nor did anyone else. no one said anything about lowering the cost. all i did was state some facts. i do think people should stop being so eager to jump on other people's case's. Shit man, who cares. we could be living under a bridge or starving in some third world country_______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark135 0 #56 February 18, 2003 Yes. Then you teach them how to not do it again. I am really glad that my instructors didn't have this attitude. I might not be alive right now if they had. It is not an option for one of MY students to get hurt if I can help it. One student fatality is NOT an option for me. Altitude, flying in with my arms up protecting my head, a good helmet, and an AAD all in conjunction with a good flying ability will save any student from deploying while on his/her back. To say that it is ok for a student to deploy on their back is ludicrous. I have seen the broken bones and near death experiences that come from attitudes like that and I don't find it to be acceptable in the least. Quote I hope, as an instructor, I never even consider that making a student personally responsible for his own safety is "outdated." If I do, I'll stop teaching before I get someone killed with that attitude. I couldn't agree more with that statement, however, I do disagree with an instructor using an AAD as a secondary means for stability. This is just my opinion here, but I tend to follow these rules in my head on a student dive: 1st: teach a thorough and accurate ground school and make sure the student understands it thoroughly by repeated demonstration. (repeated demonstration also builds muscle memory) 2nd:Do everything in my power to assure that my student has a really good skydiving experience by keeping him/her safe on the dive. I do this by allowing enough altitude for recovery if things get out of control. I would much rather tell a student that they failed the dive because of instability than visit them in the hospital to tell them they failed and I am sorry that they have broken bones because I couldn't fly well enough to save them from themselves in conjunction that I didn't take them as high as we could have gone which would have made things easier. A deployment while on your back leads to a 50/50 chance of an entanglement of legs and suspension lines. This is going to break bones or kill most people and probably lead to the individual never skydiving again. I know that if I were on student status and had to land on my head because one of my instructors opted to let my AAD fire while I was on my back instead of him getting in to help me......well, I would never come back and I would end up bad mouthing skydiving for the rest of my life.....if I was even able to talk. seems ppl are mixing and matching aff and s/l. bottom line is you have to know that the student understands and is capable of acheiving the dive goals. I have had my share of students that "broke themselves" i can assure you it never has anything to do with the dive. im sure its possible to break an arm or leg on an unstable opening. as far as you never lettig a student pull on their back? well, lets review 1. pull 2. pull at altitude. 3. pull at altitude and stable rule number one supercedes everything. oh yeah, have fun!! try not to mix up s/l and aff. they are two different methods with 2 different dive goals. 2 types of j/ming. just because i dont have an aff rating doesnt mean i cant fly as well as an aff/i. after all i am just a s/l I so I can't fly worth a crap! (see: humor)_______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #57 February 18, 2003 wow. how easy it is for people to get things mixed up. Nowhere did i say that the requirments should be lessened. nowhere did i say that the price should be lowered, I made no suggestions at all. simply stated a fact that an aff rating is cost prohibitive to many ppl. *** Then what did you mean by?: ***Thats right, lets make it so that only those that have plenty of disposable income can become aff instructors. The only reason I dont have an aff rating is the fact that I am unwilling to take food off the table for a rating that will not create a return on the initial investment. figure the cost of taking 2 weeks off work and the course fee and what you are paid per jump as an aff instructor. Do it for the love of the sport? I would like to do that, however that is impossible, There are others such as myself and my wife that work in the sport for the sole purpose of being able to afford skydiving in the first place. It also is supplemental income to sustain us through the offseason when we rely on our pitiful small checks from our real jobs. the joy of teaching students is a great offshoot but without the income from doing it we wouldnt be able to teach in the first place. Seems to me you were complaining about the cost of the AFFI rating and suggesting that it should be lower. You responded to my statement that there should be AFF Mentors, complaining that it would put the AFFI rating out of reach of anyone that didn't have "plenty of disposable income". A AFF Mentoring program would not change the cost of the rating nor change how much the new instructor earns, only limit the new instructor to 2 jumpmaster dives until ready to handle single jumpmaster dives. Are you against this idea? If so, why? I don't think we got things all mixed up, we all read your post the same way; "The course is expensive and you are suggesting to make the rating more expensive (I wasn't), I would have my rating if it wasn't so expensive. I just want to give back to the sport, it shuld be cheaper, so I can get my rating. If it was cheaper, I would have my rating". That is what I took your post to mena, and I beleive others did too. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #58 February 19, 2003 to clarify my opinion...... I was referring to a student on a 5 or 10 second delay. I would much rather take a student through a quick AFF ground study after they have completed the static line jumps than turn them lose with just enough time to hang themselves. This is just my opinion. I think that is where the confusion is coming in between SL and AFF. Personally, I don't agree that a student ever needs to be in free fall by themself until they have displayed enough control in free fall to an instructor who was in free fall with them. To enact my opinion into a working training method would have to incorporate static line students into an AFF atmosphere. IS this going to happen......more than likely not. It just scares the poop out of me when I see a student going into free fall for the first time when they are alone. As for the pulling thing.....yes, you are quite correct. Above all else pull. What I was saying was that I personally would much rather see a student out of control at 6,000 feet with an instructor to assist them instead of an out of control student at 4,000 all by themself. I am not saying that we should abolish static line progression completely. However, I will never reccomend it as a training method to any whuffo I meet on the street. I will push AFF or Tandem progression instead. This is just my opinion and I want to make that quite clear. After all, I am a product of static line progression and I did just fine with it, but it definitely is nowhere as safe as AFF or Tandem in my opinion. Please understand what I am saying here folks....this is just my opinion and I don't want people to get in a hissy thinking that I am saying we need to abolish static lines. That isn't for me to say or do. I am not an S&TA nor do I work for the USPA. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 563 #59 February 19, 2003 Quote 4) I believe a new AFFI should not be signed off to do solo AFF until after being signed off by an AFF Mentor, and only after a minimum of 25, 2 Instructor dives with that AFF Mentor.Quote I agree. Recently certified instructors - in any genre - should be eased into instruction. This means that new s/l instructors should start with students doing their second or third jumps. They should gain some experience before dealing with the high-stress scenario of first-timers. This means that recently certified AFF Instructors should do a couple dozen "cling on dives" before any one-on-one dives with students. By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students. Oh, and I believe that recently certified instructors should be paid for all the dives they do with students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites listo 0 #60 February 19, 2003 Quote By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students To take that one step further......I would say that instead of the medium sized passengers...they should take passengers that are just a little bit smaller or the same size, but definitely not larger than they are. I know some pretty small TIs. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #61 February 19, 2003 Quote Quote By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students To take that one step further......I would say that instead of the medium sized passengers...they should take passengers that are just a little bit smaller or the same size, but definitely not larger than they are. I know some pretty small TIs. I know of several TIs who have done just that. When they 1st started out put a max weight limit of something like 170 then worked thier way up to 200. I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug*Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #62 February 19, 2003 Quote4) I believe a new AFFI should not be signed off to do solo AFF until after being signed off by an AFF Mentor, and only after a minimum of 25, 2 Instructor dives with that AFF Mentor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. Recently certified instructors - in any genre - should be eased into instruction. This means that new s/l instructors should start with students doing their second or third jumps. They should gain some experience before dealing with the high-stress scenario of first-timers. This means that recently certified AFF Instructors should do a couple dozen "cling on dives" before any one-on-one dives with students. By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students. Oh, and I believe that recently certified instructors should be paid for all the dives they do with students. I agree they should be paid, never ment to imply they shouldn't. Just like you said, eased into the job. My first live AFF student was a Level 4 repeat dive, with a history of spinning. Talk about trial by fire..... Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites listo 0 #63 February 19, 2003 Quote I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug* the funny thing is.....I am 6'4" and 205. So I just had to bite the bullet so to speak. The good thing is that I can't take anyone over 240. However, since I am big, I always get stuck with the huge pieces of "meat". The little guys are afraid to take to 200+ pounders. lol Gotta earn a buck however you can I guess.Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #64 February 19, 2003 Quote Quote I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug* the funny thing is.....I am 6'4" and 205. So I just had to bite the bullet so to speak. The good thing is that I can't take anyone over 240. However, since I am big, I always get stuck with the huge pieces of "meat". The little guys are afraid to take to 200+ pounders. lol Gotta earn a buck however you can I guess. hehehe..I saw video of a TI who's ~5'4 taking a big guy (something like your size) on a tandem out of a skyvan. The tandem student stood up and walked out the back of the plane, in the video you see the TI's legs dangling off the floor. Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites listo 0 #65 February 19, 2003 yeah, I have seen that too. I constantly remind my tall passengers to not stand up in the otter. I have had my head banged on the ceiling quite a few times. I am more worried about dragging the rig though. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark135 0 #66 February 19, 2003 <<"The course is expensive and you are suggesting to make the rating more expensive (I wasn't), I would have my rating if it wasn't so expensive. I just want to give back to the sport, it shuld be cheaper, so I can get my rating. If it was cheaper, I would have my rating". >> I didnt write that part. What I did mean was lets not make it more expensive._______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 563 #67 February 19, 2003 I disagree with giving only small students to new tandem instructors. My experience (2000 plus tandems) is that tiny students are the most dangerous. The problem is that small women believe that their instructors can solve any problem. So they go fetal on exit, hang onto instructors' thumbs at pull-time, etc. They have far more confidence in their instructors abilities than I do. So far (2,000 tandem jumps) I have been able to solve all the problems students have thrown at me, but I do not expect my luck to last forever. On the other hand, big guys know instinctively that they can kill tandem masters, so they listen and cooperate much better. I have jumped with tandem students 7 inches taller than me and 70 pounds heavier and they were some of my better students. Granted it takes a while for new tandem instructors to gain the experience to handle students significantly bigger than them, but it is all part of the learning process. I believe in leading by example, so I never ask other instructors to take students that I cannot handle. I also do not believe in assigning large students to small instructors when there is a larger instructor available. And let's be realistic, small tandem instructors should never have to jump with huge students. In conclusion, as long as I head the tandem program at Pitt Meadows, junior tandem instructors will start out with medium-sized students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #68 February 19, 2003 QuoteI don't think we got things all mixed up, we all read your post the same way; "The course is expensive and you are suggesting to make the rating more expensive (I wasn't), I would have my rating if it wasn't so expensive. I just want to give back to the sport, it shuld be cheaper, so I can get my rating. If it was cheaper, I would have my rating". That is what I took your post to mena, and I beleive others did too. I know you didn't write that, I was saying how I read your post, paraphrasing. You said, you ment lets not make it more expensive. You are complaining about the current cost, and I didn't suggest making the rating more expensive. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 37 #69 February 19, 2003 Quoteare you saying that you have people that are willing to pay their own slot to go on a phase II jump with a candidate. Personally, I wouldn't let them pay their own slot, they are doing me a favor by just jumping with me. ] Lots of places will. I've paid for my own slot on the front of more than one tandem helping a friend out. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #70 February 20, 2003 QuoteOn the other hand, big guys know instinctively that they can kill tandem masters, so they listen and cooperate much better. I have jumped with tandem students 7 inches taller than me and 70 pounds heavier and they were some of my better students. Granted it takes a while for new tandem instructors to gain the experience to handle students significantly bigger than them, but it is all part of the learning process. I believe in leading by example, so I never ask other instructors to take students that I cannot handle. I also do not believe in assigning large students to small instructors when there is a larger instructor available. And let's be realistic, small tandem instructors should never have to jump with huge students. Let's not forget physics either here. A smaller student moves the CG up into the Instructor with the Huge rig on his back. If things go wrong, it's just that much easier to end up on your back. At least a big student keeps that CG lower and helps you keep some assemblence of belly to earth. I had done few Tandems before I got hurt doing them and decided I was done, but I know for certain that (for me) bigger students were easier to deal with than little ones. Now, I'm a big guy myself, so that helps with the manhandling in the door, but once your into the blue, I think most everyone is in (or near) the same situation. CG is still CG. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
listo 0 #60 February 19, 2003 Quote By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students To take that one step further......I would say that instead of the medium sized passengers...they should take passengers that are just a little bit smaller or the same size, but definitely not larger than they are. I know some pretty small TIs. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #61 February 19, 2003 Quote Quote By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students To take that one step further......I would say that instead of the medium sized passengers...they should take passengers that are just a little bit smaller or the same size, but definitely not larger than they are. I know some pretty small TIs. I know of several TIs who have done just that. When they 1st started out put a max weight limit of something like 170 then worked thier way up to 200. I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug*Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #62 February 19, 2003 Quote4) I believe a new AFFI should not be signed off to do solo AFF until after being signed off by an AFF Mentor, and only after a minimum of 25, 2 Instructor dives with that AFF Mentor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. Recently certified instructors - in any genre - should be eased into instruction. This means that new s/l instructors should start with students doing their second or third jumps. They should gain some experience before dealing with the high-stress scenario of first-timers. This means that recently certified AFF Instructors should do a couple dozen "cling on dives" before any one-on-one dives with students. By the same logic, new tandem instructors should start with medium-sized students. Oh, and I believe that recently certified instructors should be paid for all the dives they do with students. I agree they should be paid, never ment to imply they shouldn't. Just like you said, eased into the job. My first live AFF student was a Level 4 repeat dive, with a history of spinning. Talk about trial by fire..... Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #63 February 19, 2003 Quote I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug* the funny thing is.....I am 6'4" and 205. So I just had to bite the bullet so to speak. The good thing is that I can't take anyone over 240. However, since I am big, I always get stuck with the huge pieces of "meat". The little guys are afraid to take to 200+ pounders. lol Gotta earn a buck however you can I guess.Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #64 February 19, 2003 Quote Quote I know TIs who won't take anyone over 200lbs, and I know ones who will. *shrug* the funny thing is.....I am 6'4" and 205. So I just had to bite the bullet so to speak. The good thing is that I can't take anyone over 240. However, since I am big, I always get stuck with the huge pieces of "meat". The little guys are afraid to take to 200+ pounders. lol Gotta earn a buck however you can I guess. hehehe..I saw video of a TI who's ~5'4 taking a big guy (something like your size) on a tandem out of a skyvan. The tandem student stood up and walked out the back of the plane, in the video you see the TI's legs dangling off the floor. Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #65 February 19, 2003 yeah, I have seen that too. I constantly remind my tall passengers to not stand up in the otter. I have had my head banged on the ceiling quite a few times. I am more worried about dragging the rig though. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark135 0 #66 February 19, 2003 <<"The course is expensive and you are suggesting to make the rating more expensive (I wasn't), I would have my rating if it wasn't so expensive. I just want to give back to the sport, it shuld be cheaper, so I can get my rating. If it was cheaper, I would have my rating". >> I didnt write that part. What I did mean was lets not make it more expensive._______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 563 #67 February 19, 2003 I disagree with giving only small students to new tandem instructors. My experience (2000 plus tandems) is that tiny students are the most dangerous. The problem is that small women believe that their instructors can solve any problem. So they go fetal on exit, hang onto instructors' thumbs at pull-time, etc. They have far more confidence in their instructors abilities than I do. So far (2,000 tandem jumps) I have been able to solve all the problems students have thrown at me, but I do not expect my luck to last forever. On the other hand, big guys know instinctively that they can kill tandem masters, so they listen and cooperate much better. I have jumped with tandem students 7 inches taller than me and 70 pounds heavier and they were some of my better students. Granted it takes a while for new tandem instructors to gain the experience to handle students significantly bigger than them, but it is all part of the learning process. I believe in leading by example, so I never ask other instructors to take students that I cannot handle. I also do not believe in assigning large students to small instructors when there is a larger instructor available. And let's be realistic, small tandem instructors should never have to jump with huge students. In conclusion, as long as I head the tandem program at Pitt Meadows, junior tandem instructors will start out with medium-sized students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #68 February 19, 2003 QuoteI don't think we got things all mixed up, we all read your post the same way; "The course is expensive and you are suggesting to make the rating more expensive (I wasn't), I would have my rating if it wasn't so expensive. I just want to give back to the sport, it shuld be cheaper, so I can get my rating. If it was cheaper, I would have my rating". That is what I took your post to mena, and I beleive others did too. I know you didn't write that, I was saying how I read your post, paraphrasing. You said, you ment lets not make it more expensive. You are complaining about the current cost, and I didn't suggest making the rating more expensive. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #69 February 19, 2003 Quoteare you saying that you have people that are willing to pay their own slot to go on a phase II jump with a candidate. Personally, I wouldn't let them pay their own slot, they are doing me a favor by just jumping with me. ] Lots of places will. I've paid for my own slot on the front of more than one tandem helping a friend out. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #70 February 20, 2003 QuoteOn the other hand, big guys know instinctively that they can kill tandem masters, so they listen and cooperate much better. I have jumped with tandem students 7 inches taller than me and 70 pounds heavier and they were some of my better students. Granted it takes a while for new tandem instructors to gain the experience to handle students significantly bigger than them, but it is all part of the learning process. I believe in leading by example, so I never ask other instructors to take students that I cannot handle. I also do not believe in assigning large students to small instructors when there is a larger instructor available. And let's be realistic, small tandem instructors should never have to jump with huge students. Let's not forget physics either here. A smaller student moves the CG up into the Instructor with the Huge rig on his back. If things go wrong, it's just that much easier to end up on your back. At least a big student keeps that CG lower and helps you keep some assemblence of belly to earth. I had done few Tandems before I got hurt doing them and decided I was done, but I know for certain that (for me) bigger students were easier to deal with than little ones. Now, I'm a big guy myself, so that helps with the manhandling in the door, but once your into the blue, I think most everyone is in (or near) the same situation. CG is still CG. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
