Coach course questions

[riddler 0]

I'm planning on taking Mustard's coach course in March and I'm reading the IRM and SIM, which leads me to a LOT of questions, so I hope you guys don't mind if I pick your brains and start a thread on this, since I didn't see one for questions specific to the USPA course.

The first question in on coach currency. There are a few options to stay current, but it looks like USPA is trying to encourage the first one - sit in on a first-jump course every year and do 15 coach jumps every year. Failing that, it looks like you have to retake the coach course (but with only one jump, rather than two, if it's within a year of expiration). I would prefer the former, rather than the latter, and I think USPA would prefer that as well. I do think it's good that getting a higher cert (such as AFFI) automatically renews the coach rating.

My concern is that it may be difficult to perform 15 coach jumps in a year. It seems that a lot of jumpers in my area either are or are becoming coaches and there may not be enough of a student market for coaching to let all of the coaches stay current. It looks like with the ISP, that every student requires at least 3 coach jumps (is this correct?). If true, this would mean coaches may need to work with as many as 5 students every year to stay current. I don't know enough about the big picture (ratio of coaches/students) to know if this is reasonable. It seems that, especially at smaller DZs, it may be hard to find five students for every coach every year.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Have any coaches been struggling with finding enough students?

[PhreeZone 15]

What is even harder is if your DZ does not push the students to have the coach jumps then that is another lost opprunity to get your jumps in. We use a hybrid program that at the end of it the students only really need 1 jump or so to finish off the A card since everything else is covered in their student program. So that leaves coaches doing the gear and canopy flight stuff but only 1 freefall per student. At say 5 coaches per DZ that means we'd have to graduate 75 students a year to maintain currency for all the instructors. The other situation that we run into at my DZ is the FJC is usually only offered during the week so that all the instructors are avaible on the weekends. In order for me to attend an FJC that means missing a day of work too. Its hard for me to justify taking a day off work to attend an FJC for a rating that I probally won't be able to renew anyways.

Any ideas other then have the coaches become upper level JM's?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkySlut 0]

you dont necessarily have to get paid for doing coach jumps...sometimes a DZ will give you a free slot to help out a newer jumper or sometimes you can just take the initiative and pay your own slot. If you are teaching them, it helps them and it helps you in preparation for your AFF rating. With the ISP program, you will find that a lot of AFF instructors dont want to be bothered with doing coaching jumps because they take up a good amount of time and it typically doesnt pay as much. you should be able to stay current very easily. just make sure that you are being noticed that you are doing so and log them so you have proof that you have been doing coaching so when you have to get your rating renewed...the local official can sign you off on it.

[riggerrob 561]

At a properly-run DZ, fully-rated instructors are so busy with students that they do not have time for coaching.
USPA coaches take over when students have 8 or a dozen jumps.
Smart DZOs give junior jumpers a price break on coach dives to keep them involved, so they will complete their "A" Licenses, stick around, buy gear, etc.
Junior coaches often volunteer their time and get free slots. As they improve their coaching skills, they get slot-plus-$5, etc.
The best coaches get discounted gear and "subsidized" slots on 300-ways.
It is all a cycle. Smart DZOs encourage junior coaches so they will have another crop of instructors two or three years down the road.

[SkySlut 0]

Yep, that is a smart DZ...but sometimes it can be pretty difficult to find a DZ that has that type of mentality. So you may have to search out a good one. So if you are at a DZ that only thinks about the present moment you may have to switch DZs to persue your skydiving goals.

[rigging65 0]

DZs don't generally run their student programs to facilitate instructors keeping their ratings current. If the student count isn't high enough to keep you current at your current DZ, and you really want to be a coach, move yourself to a DZ that has more students. Or get out there and advertise for your DZ and help bring in more students!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[riddler 0]

Getting paid doesn't matter much to me - I make enough money in my day job to skydive as much as I like. I want to be an instructor because I just really like the students. But at the same time, I don't want to piss off the "union" by handing out free coach jumps when others are trying to make a living from skydiving. Anyone have thoughts on this? If I don't charge a student for the jump, is it best to keep that between the two of us?

Even not charging for coach jumps doesn't make the numbers better - if there's not enough students asking for coach jumps, then it's gonna be hard to get the requirements in. I want the students to have fun, at the DZ, not be pressured by all the people trying to sell them coach jumps, equipment, videos, t-shirts, etc.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[SkySlut 0]

Yep, that is a VERY find line to walk...I remember when I was doing coaching jumps, at the DZ that I started at they had 2 coaching jumps after AFF. A good portion of the instructors were pretty bent about it because I was taking work from them...but the smart ones (the DZO) knew that I was going to be an AFF instructor and that he was helping me, I was helping the DZ and that it would pay off for both of us in the long run. I found out later after getting all my ratings that the same guys that were bitching about me doing coaching jumps, bitch about everything...so screw em. I have said this in the past, if you are in it for the money, quit and get a real job...stick to your guns and be the best coach you can be...the students can tell the difference between a good coach and a whiny ass, money grubbing, burnt out instructor. Just keep in mind why you are doing this. If you do a great job at coaching, the word will travel and soon you will have plenty of students. Try not to get mixed up in the politics...especially in front of students or potential students. Its just not appropriate.

[JYorkster 0]

You bring up a good point. But not everyone DOES make enough money at their 'real' job to skydive as much as they want. If there is an open friendly atmosphere at the DZ, get all the I's and coaches together and work it out. I beleive if the jump requires a coach for the student program, the DZ should charge the standard rate for a coached jump. This is fair to all invovled. However, if you are doing coaching for someone off student staus, it is up to you whether you charge them. Other coaches should not be upset by this. What if it were a friend or relative or something? Would they charge them? Keeping it separated by on/off student status provides a clear deliniation, and if someone is depending on the money to keep skydiving, they can focus on the students who require coached jumps to progress.

Just my 2 cents,
Rock

[mustard 0]

"Coaching" for the ISP ostensibly means those who are still students and who have not yet earned a license. However, Riddler's point is a good one, as is Yorkster's. If someone is off student status (i.e., has an A license), they still need to work on their skills, and this is a perfect situation for a junior coach. Work it out with the person as to who pays for the jump. If you are just going out to watch them and don't actually end up spending much time on the jump, it could be that you end up paying your own slot.

Skratch does this all the time -- he's going out to lurk a big-way or just look at the scenery, and there's a young jumper on the load. He ends up establishing a rapport with the person, and they jump together. This starts a relationship. *Then* you can decide if a coach jump is appropriate, and they buy your slot.

I myself feel that you need to be very up front with someone who is buying your slot. Remember that most of the time they don't have gear, so they end up on a solo jump paying $45 for it. Add in a coach's slot and it's $65. Add to that the $10 for your time, and it's a $75 jump.

Now it could be worth it to him/her, or not. Depends on the coach, how much you teach and how you debrief and follow through. Some coaches in Colorado get many more than 15/year -- and some don't get any.

You don't have to get paid for the jump, or even jump with an actual student, to call it a coach jump. Coach somebody who needs it (and we all can use help in the early days). Mark it in your logbook as a coach jump, and when you get renewed, you shouldn't have any problem showing 15.

The younger a coach is in the sport, the harder it is for him/her to feel their own worth to another. I have no problem saying up front, this is what we will do, this is what my time costs. But then again, I've got more than 3K and almost a thousand jumps with students. When I had your number of jumps, I was looking for people to pay for coaching! So, times are changing.

You will learn from each coach jump you make, and by the time you are ready for renewal, you will be a different person. You'll know what you teach well, what you need to improve, and with each jump, if you are honest with yourself, you should see improvement in both the coach and the coachee!

If USPA had wanted to have already developed coaches, they wouldn't simply require 100 jumps and a course. You'll see! And I hope, really hope, you have fun doing this. That way, you'll transfer that joy to those you jump with.

***
DJan

[skr 1]

>leads me to a LOT of questions

Hey Phil,

Let's do some stuff together out at Brush this summer.

There are plenty of people who need help - 15 jumps
won't be too hard.

The ISP indicates one way to get from post AFF to the
A license, but the students don't come in any standard
format. Each one needs different training even though
we are trying to get them all to a common level of skills
by the A license.

I wrote some stuff about how to cope with that and put
it at
http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/index.html#learning


It's the program we set up at Calhan, but my intuition is
telling me to jump much more at Brush this summer.


The money question is tough and I've had a hard time
coming to terms with it.

It takes more money now to jump than it once did. I don't
like that, and it does exclude some people, but I didn't
create the economic times we live in.

Also coaching is way more than just going up and doing
a casual two way with someone. It's mostly about canopy
flying and packing and spotting and how the dropzone
system and society work and it's a *lot* of work.


Most people *want* further training. People pay instructors
for skiing down bunny slopes, and skydiving is definitely
not a bunny slope.

Skr

[riddler 0]

Thanks, Mustard and skr for replying (two of my heros
I now feel comfortable about getting 15 coach jumps in, since Mustard explained about coaching with folks other than students. And I think a good approach for me about cost would be to tell students that I am a less experienced skydiver and that's why I may not be charging them for the coach or the slot, and let them know there are more experienced skydivers that they can go with that know their stuff better and may charge them for it.

Now for two more questions!

1. As far as the course itself, I feel I really have to work on the evaluation jumps, since I tend to be a free-flyer and I'm not that good on my belly. Maybe the coach program will reflect FF at some point in the future for rebellious souls like myself, but for now, it's all about belly-flying. The question is about docking and taking grips, which is required for the category G and H dives. I don't have a jumpsuit with grips, and I was wondering if I will be penalized for that? Will I need to get one (quickly!) or borrow one for this?

2. The second question harkens back to the issue of the various unions around the DZ - I'm getting ready to mount a camera on my helmet, and I do plan on using that on coach dives. I think it's too valuable a tool to show students what they are doing to NOT have one. The second question is am I going to piss off the camera people if I'm videoing students on coach jumps? I know the AFFI's don't typically do this, and I was told it's partly because they don't want to interfere with the people making money on video. As a coach, I don't want to step on the toes of the camera flyers any more than the AFFIs. Any camera people that have a thought on this - your opinion would be most valuable.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

2. The second question harkens back to the issue of the various unions around the DZ - I'm getting ready to mount a camera on my helmet, and I do plan on using that on coach dives. I think it's too valuable a tool to show students what they are doing to NOT have one. The second question is am I going to piss off the camera people if I'm videoing students on coach jumps? I know the AFFI's don't typically do this, and I was told it's partly because they don't want to interfere with the people making money on video. As a coach, I don't want to step on the toes of the camera flyers any more than the AFFIs. Any camera people that have a thought on this - your opinion would be most valuable.

Phil

Hopefully you'll get some replies from some dedicated camera people. But don't forget that any coach jumps you may do while at the Tandem Factory will be done while you're competiting against the Tandems wants/desires to have their jumps videoed. So I don't think this will be an issue while you're at you know where ... the Tandem Factory.

PS: Even though I'm not running out to be a coach any time soon, videoing others for educational purposes is a huge motivational factor for flying a camera.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Deuce 1]

Well, Riddler, I always wear my camera. Always. RW, FF or working camera on Tandems and Levels.

The coaches are all low time jumpers, pretty much, at my DZ. Once they get to the AFF rating, I'm pretty sure most of them don't do coached jumps anymore. The pro coaches, who also do AFF, charge pretty steep, but you get what you pay for.

When you start skydiving for money, you gotta pay attention to business. So if you're gonna give up a jump ticket for a coached jump, give it to me, cause I'm gonna give you some good video. The coaches who don't do video would have to be really good, and the great coaches get 2 jump tickets to jump with you, and they mostly hire video.

If you've got "unions" on your DZ, I don't know what to suggest. You do gotta get along.

Remember: Nothing happened if it didn't happen on video!

[skr 1]

>Maybe the coach program will reflect FF at some point
>in the future for rebellious souls like myself, but for now,
>it's all about belly-flying.

No, it's not.

I wish there were some way to get this straight in people's
minds, I hear this quite often.

It's about teaching people how to make a parachute jump,
canopy control and winds and spotting and traffic and
exit separation and packing and gear and how the dropzone
system and society work.

I have people make a few solo freefalls right after AFF
while we focus on canopy control and the other stuff.

And I have them play around in freefall, a few turns and
loops, maybe stand up or fall off the plane backwards and
see what happens, find landmarks and look at the size of
cars at various altitudes and so on.

But the emphasis is on the parachute jump aspects,
canopy control, exit separation and so on.

When they show some signs of getting it we go up and
do the freefall requirements and sign them off.

All this other stuff, wingsuits and boards and head down
and points and stuff, is totally irrelevant until they can
make a parachute jump without scaring anybody.

It's like teaching people to scuba dive before they know
how to swim.


>I don't have a jumpsuit with grips, and I was wondering
>if I will be penalized for that?

Don't worry about it. My fast suit has no grippers, my middle
suit is a freefly suit, only my great big jump with 98 lb girls
suit has grippers. I have them taking thumb and forefinger
grips anyway.


>various unions around the DZ

Colorado isn't that formal, at least Brush and Calhan
aren't. I don't go to Mile Hi any more and I've never
been to Skydive the Rockies.

I'm unsure about a camera. Students don't tend to stay
in the frame and a lot of the time you're supposed to
hold still and provide them a reference.

We can figure all that out this summer. I know some
places do that. Roger's AFP people carry a camera
on every jump, but I don't know how it works.

Skr

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

>Maybe the coach program will reflect FF at some point
>in the future for rebellious souls like myself, but for now,
>it's all about belly-flying.

No, it's not.

I think he ment the freefall portions focus on belly flying, not free-flying.

Quote

I'm unsure about a camera. Students don't tend to stay
in the frame and a lot of the time you're supposed to
hold still and provide them a reference.

We can figure all that out this summer. I know some
places do that. Roger's AFP people carry a camera
on every jump, but I don't know how it works.

I wear a sidewinder w/ a PC-101 on AFF/AFP/Coach dives. Works very well. No sight to get in the way. Wide angle lens gets the shot. Turn it on before exit and forget about it.

Hook

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

>
We can figure all that out this summer. I know some
places do that. Roger's AFP people carry a camera
on every jump, but I don't know how it works.

Skr

It works very well. I think I was out of frame for a total of about 10 seconds over 15 AFP jumps when I was a student.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[eeneR 1]

Quote

It works very well. I think I was out of frame for a total of about 10 seconds over 15 AFP jumps when I was a student.

Pretty much the same here...but over 18 jumps as they have since updated the program to finish the student all the way thru the A license. It was a great way to go back and see what I was doing wrong..."your feet are on your ass!", No they werent..."yes look at this video...your backsliding all over the sky!" Video is a priceless tool....

my .02

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[riddler 0]

Quote

We can figure all that out this summer. I know some places do that.

You are right about the "point" of coaching, and I need to keep this in mind during the course, but my biggest concern is the jumps, because that's where I feel weakest of all the requirements. Also, I think that many students that come to me as a coach will expect me to be some sort of skygod because I'm a coach, and I think I need to impress on them, just like you do to me, that I'm not necessarily a great flyer and the important parts of skydiving are being safe, keeping separation, flying canopy with awareness, landing well and understanding what others expect of them.

And so, on to the next question:

About the number of coach jumps required for the ISP program. It looks like with USPA ISP that coaching is going to go on for categories E-H, with coach sign-off in categories F, G, H. This kind of implies that there should be at least three coach jumps to sign the students off, but whether three are required is nebulous.

In the 2003 IRM Edition 2, page "Coach 7", Section 3, "Document Layout", Part B. "The A license Proficiency Card", Number 2.a.2., it states:

"each category recommended to be completed prior to advancing to the next"

Does this "recommended" mean that it is still my (as a coach) discretion about what to sign off for all the levels? In other words, I can, as a guideline, only sign off portions in category E, until category E is completed, then move on to category F, and only sign off portion in there until F is completed, and so on. But alternatively, it looks like it may be my discretion to sign off parts or all of category F, even though the student may not be done with category E yet. Is this correct? Or do I and other coaches need to only work in one category at a time?

You can probably see where I'm going with this. If the students know that multiple parts can be signed off, there may be pressure to get more of the ISP signed off with fewer coach jumps. This may be reasonable if the student is a good all-around skydiver and they don't feel they can afford $75 each time for three coach jumps. But it may be a bad idea if the student is just trying to save money even if they need more coaching. These are the sorts of problems that are inherent in formalizing coaching and turning into something for profit.

[skr 1]

>And so, on to the next question

Jeez riddler, I'm going to have to email you some
killer dwee or something to slow that mind of yours
down :-) :-)


>In the 2003 IRM Edition 2, page "Coach 7", Section 3,
>"Document Layout", Part B. "The A license Proficiency
>Card", Number 2.a.2., it states

Aaaggghhhhh, I can't stand it.

This SIM Sludge representation of coaching is so hard
for me to deal with that by the time I had finished the
coach course I didn't even want to jump any more,
much less coach anyone.


Now then, the purpose or goal of the coaching phase
is to get them to a certain level of skill before turning
them loose.

Would you feel OK with this person going out after your
group? Does he scare you when he's zooming around
the crowd under canopy? Do you turn pale watching
him pack?


The goal is the level of skill attained and not the path
from here to there. When you read the SIM you get the
impression that the path they laid out, levels F-G-H,
is the one and only way to do it, but it is only one way
to distribute the requirements across the jumps.

I keep in mind the skills we are going for and use the
short form of the proficiency card.

I emphasize canopy flying first since that is what they
need the most and do the freefall stuff last.


The long form might work in a military situation where
you have more uniform students and some control of
their jump life, but out here in the civilian world they
show up in all states of currency, mood, energy level,
strengths and weaknesses and so on.

So on each jump you cook up a nutritious jump that
moves them toward the desired skills.

The skills are concrete and the ingredients are concrete,
but the meals you cook for them are variable according
to the needs of the moment.


Before the course we'll make a couple jumps together
with you the coach leading me the student around.
It will only take 2-4 jumps to see that you can do it.

During the course DJan makes clear what you need to
do. The evaluation jumps are predetermined and you get
a handout with the jumps and the possible mistakes the
evaluator can make.



AFF is *much* harder, as it should be. When we get
them at the coach level they can already fall stable
and pull, and we're just helping them get from there
to being able to jump on their own without scaring
anybody.

I wrote a handout for the coaches at Calhan that goes
into all this
http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/cc_coach_handout.html

The coach course is a little bit of an artificial environment
but that handout is about life after the coach course.

Skr

[riddler 0]

About what a coach can actually sign on the ISP student progression card.

The 2003 has both the "traditional" A license card, and the new and improved ISP card. I assume that the "old" card is there for students that got on-bard before ISP, and that all new students will be using ISP?

The new card specifies that for ISP Categories E-H, a coach may only sign off on the free-fall portions of the skydive. Then they go on with signatures that say "I" (I assume this is AFF Instructor), "C/I" (I assume coach *or* AFF Instructor), "R/I" (Rigger *or* AFF Instructor?) and "P/I" (Pilot *or* AFF Instructor?) as specified in various pages 67-97 of the SIM.

I think I am beginning to understand that the coaching is teaching students to be safe in general. But this question is about what I can actually sign on the card. I don't want to sign off portions I'm not supposed to and have USPA reject the application as a result.

As a coach, I may only sign the first line of each category, marked "Freefall" or "Exit/Freefall", and various portions of the skills on the right-hand side of each category?

I have no idea what killer dwee is, but I'll take some of that now

[Kris 0]

Actually, the "I" signature that is required for those sections can be signed off by an AFF, S/L, or IAD Instructor. Not sure about a tandem I, but I believe they can sign as well...

As a coach, you can only sign off on the Exit and Freefall portions of Cat's E, F, G & H.

Kris
USPA IAD-I '03

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[riddler 0]

Quote

2003 IRM, page "coach 23", Section 10. "Problem Solving", part B.1

"The coach should wear a chest-mounted visual altimeter for the student to observe".

Okay - I have heard of 4-way and other belly-teams wearing chest-mount or leg-strap mounts so that teammates could see each other's alitimeters, but how practical is this for a student?

As a coach, you probably have a new jumper (less than 20 jumps) that is starting to get used to looking at their own altimeter and read it correctly. How feasible is it to expect them to be able to look across your two-way (this is assuming that you spend even that much time that close to each other and stable) and look at your chest-mount.

Also, the alti will read upside-down for them - again, something that experienced teams can do, but not something I would think a low-timer would be good at. Maybe some of them, but my guess is most wouldn't even be stable and close enough for a few seconds to read the thing, then translate it upside down. Not at that level anyway.

Anyone disagree/agree?

[Hooknswoop 19]

I have never been a fan of chest mounted altimeters. You can mount them upside down, so others read them right-side-up. I have found several problems with the idea.

1) People forget to zero their chestmount. Not a huge deal unless you trvel to another DZ at a different elavation.

2) They get banged up pretty good when they (or their packer) moves/drops/drags the rig. So their accuracy degrades quickly.

3) Unless everyone wears them, it takes more time to look around the formation for a chest mount than it does to look at a wrist mount.

4) I would rather use on my own gear than someone else's questionable gear. I use my eyes and internal clock for altitude awareness more than anything.

5) A chest mount can nail you on the chin in the event of a hard opening.

Hook

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

5) A chest mount can nail you on the chin in the event of a hard opening.

Hook

There was a recent fatality due to a jumper being struck in the throat by his chest mounted altimeter.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.