Another Canopy Transfer question

[riddler 0]

Forgive me for bringing up the Canopy Transfer question again - I know they are frowned upon. But I keep thinking if I'm below 1,000 feet and need to get under the reserve, that canopy transfer might be a good option.

1. Disconnect RSL (Mustard recommends using your teeth )
2. Pull reserve.
3. If possible, release main.

If you haven't already read, some background material on Canopy Transfer and also Colorado Cypres Incident.

Now my question is this - it seems as though the reserve cannot always be counted on to inflate when deployed under the main canopy. Does this mean that there is a chance when I try canopy transfer that I'll never even get the reserve to inflate?

[phoenixlpr 0]

In what situation do you need reserve under 1000feet/300m ??? Is it canopy collision or broken break line?

Safe landings.

[andy2 0]

in a canopy collision/wrap wouldnt the smart thing to do would be to cut away and then pull reserve, instead of firing your reserve into that mess? Granted you're around 1 grand. It'd be scary lower than that I think...

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[billvon 2,435]

>1. Disconnect RSL (Mustard recommends using your teeth )

If you are under 1000 feet and you have a malfunction, do not take the time to disconnect the RSL! Depending on canopy size, type etc you could be 10 seconds from impact. Not the time to be trying to disconnect the RSL, a procedure most people never practice.

If you do get an open reserve, you then have a bit more time to disconnect the RSL before cutting away.

>Does this mean that there is a chance when I try canopy transfer
> that I'll never even get the reserve to inflate?

Definitely. It's not a reliable procedure by any means. And the times that it _is_ pretty reliable (i.e. when your main is inflated and flying straight) are the times you don't need it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Man! You are under 300m/1000feet. A reserve should open and inflate in 100m! 300m is a decision point. If you have a problem, slow malfunction that you cannot handle, you cannot land with it. Normal emergency procedure. If you under 300m with an unlandlable canopy you are really fucked. You may try to deploy reserve without cut away.

I was told the skydiving is that kindda activity that one fault wont kill you. You may survive the second fault. But no way to survive the third one!!!.

Safe landings.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Does this mean that there is a chance when I try canopy transfer that I'll never even get the reserve to inflate?

Yes. Or worse, there is a chance of main/reserve entanglement as well which could simply exacerbate your problem (whatever problem you were thinking it was that neccesitated the attempted canopy transfer in the 1st place) as well.

On the other hand, I have also seen 1st hand, this maneuver done quite cleanly & EFFICIENTLY (nearly zero loss of altitude) too. Maybe there is somebody in here who has actually performed one (I have only SEEN one, not done it myself) who can better discuss with us all the when's, how's/where-for's and appropriate situations to which this manuever may be applicable?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[riddler 0]

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It'd be scary lower than that I think...

I should add that where I jump the ground elevation is 5,000 feet. Reserves don't inflate as fast up here as at sea level - I've heard other skydivers say you can chop at 800 feet, but if you ever jump in Colorado, think higher.

Also, skr gave some good advice about this - next time you are at 1,000 feet, without taking your hands out of your toggles, look at the ground and touch your cutaway and reserve. You will see what a scary proposition this is.

Ok - thanks Bill for clarifying the RSL part - I know there is a risk of getting the lanyard caught, but you are right about the lower elevation. BTW - I hope you don't mind that I keep a print-out of your top 5 RSL myths and give it to students at the DZ. I think if I'm below 1,000, my first reaction will be only open the reserve in *extreme* circumstances because of the risk. Get that reserve out and if I'm lucky enough that it inflates properly try to land both canopies out - probably less risky than chopping the main. Obviously cutaway the main if it looks like a downplane is forming.

[Scrumpot 1]

Here's a scenario (the one I witnessed -long ago).

A jumper had a tear in the topskin to his canpoy on opening. Upon completing controllability checks between 3k-2k he fealt it was controllable & landable. His transfer was a little higher than 1k (I think), but conceivably could have been easily under ---all of a sudden the tear "opened up" & also started to tear the bottom skin too, almost literally looking like his canopy was suddenly ripping in 1/2! Looked really low & this jumper instantly fealt (I guess he already marked the point where he decided he was too low -for him- to cut away) he was too low to cut away & instead pulled his silver FIRST. ...As the reserve PC was launching he put his hand on the cut-away pillow & watched for the reserve to inflate. As it was inflating (behind the now "disintigrating" main) he then pulled his cut-away which seperated the main clean, with (again) virtually NO loss in relative altitude.

I was on the ground watching this & had to clean out my drawers afterwards! I remember this jumper however (I remember only as being a "veteran" -I had maybe only 50-60 jumps at the time) being very calm & cool about it though.

Definitely not a manuever for the faint of heart!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[fundgh 0]

Is this a manuever that is taught in advanced canopy training, or is it just a word of mouth technique. For the most part there should be no reason to require reserve at < 1000 ft. But say you are in dire need of flying canopy, this sounds like a good method to get some.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[Scrumpot 1]

I don't know that this maneuver is "formally taught" anywhere. It used to (I think -again back in the "olden" days -and I aint that old) be in the SIM under available EP's, but I do not know that it is (even there) anymore.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Tonto 1]

Yes. Some canopies will not generate sufficient airspeed to complete a reserve deployment.

I've seen this often with student gear when we were still using FXC 12000 AAD's.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mickb 0]

I felt the need to jump in here after reading the other thread about tension knots.
About twelve years back at Brunton I had my canopy open with tension knots on the right hand side.
No sweat it had happened before and I had landed it ok.
control check ok inbuilt turn but quarter brakes and it flew straight.
No radical maneuvers just set up and land it.
My wife was out on the cross with the camera for a landing shot.
just under a thousand feet I flew over the runway
Hot day and we had thermals coming off the runway
I flew into what i can only describe as a large front loading spin dryer
I felt the canopy drop and looking up saw the entire right side collapse and fold under and through the lines.
I seemed to swing forward and was almost on my back when I chopped.
Hard arch and punched out the reserve as I came over.
It seemed to take forever slow motion and all that.
when we found the main the reserve free bag was wrapped inside.
quick check of alti and was about six hundred ft
set up and landed the reserve ok.
My wife got the landing shot as well just not the one she was expecting.
To this day she will not pick up a camera if i'm in the air.
Would the main have reinflated ?
at that height I had no intention of waiting to find out.
But I never want to chop that low again.

Fear is that little darkroom where negatives are developed.
Michael Pritchard.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

...when we found the main the reserve free bag was wrapped inside.

Glad the freebag apparently did it's job in letting that reserve go (and separate from the main it had apparently got into) for you! Any of that on film?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[chuteless 1]

Years ago, at my favorite Ohio DZ, we had a big discussion aboutgetting your reserve out while under a problem main chute. The "friendly" argument lasted quite awhile. Later that day, some guys went up to make a jump. One of them had the problem main, and threw his reserve out, right into the mess. It was awhile before the guy was missed...and they found his body with both chutes all screwed up. I always will cutaway if my canopy sneezes, farts, hiccups, or coughs. I've left the aircraft many times at 1000 feet, and if there is a main problem..I'm out of there and under my reserve in a heartbeat. Canopy transfer....not for me thank you very much. I once did open my Para Commander and then two 24 ftreserves. I also opened a brand new reserve, and it blew apart, so I cutaway and opened my Para Commander.

[riggerrob 561]

I suspect that canopy transfers were possible back when main canopies were big (i.e. 230 square feet) and reserves were round.
As mains got smaller and reserves grew corners, the chances of a successful canopy transfer dropped dramatically.
As Bill Cole pointed out, back in the 1970s. skydivers learned that reserves deploy far more reliably in clean air.
Come on folks, we learned the answer5 to this question more than 20 years ago!