pull altitude atitudes

[petetheladd 0]

DAmn,

you take your eye of the thread for an evening and whoosh off it goes

My main points were

People who are pulling high >3500 do not believe they should go to the back of the jump run to avoid colliding with people opening at 2500ft.

Their solution is to go out in front and tell people behind them they should open higher, give EXTRA time etc.

Secondly there has been a trend for pull altitudes to go up.
Yes people with snivelly pocket rockets have reasons to pull higher but the newer people are pulling at these altitudes with 200ft canopies like its a minimum safe opening altitude.

I can see in another 2 years, people opening at 5000ft just to be on the safe side if a mal occurs.

Listen you want to pull high, great just do it at the back of the jump run where others are pulling at the same altitude and DEFINITELY announce a pull height over 3500 - yes even the superstar 4 way camera man who dumps
high <- see the word high, well I want to know about it.

No, Not without incident

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

Back when my team was doing 4-way is was very common to dump in a track to make your canopy
open in a shorter period of time.



That is an admission that your track was not very good.
------------------

How in the hell do you reach that conclusion?

I see it as he opened in track to open his canopy faster.
And in fact he said just that...Where do you get that his track was bad? He never said that he opened in a track to continue to get away from everyone.

You just went to apples when he said oranges.

Ron

FWIW...The guy has 7,000 jumps...I bet he tracks just fine

I've jumped with people with 10,000 jumps who track poorly! In fact it often seems that the longer someone has been jumping the more likely they are to dive away rather than flat-track away.

Canopy opening speed depends on airspeed, and in a good flat track the airspeed is lower. Look in the archives for an extensive discussion on this topic.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Canopy opening speed depends on airspeed, and in a good flat track the airspeed is lower. Look in the
archives for an extensive discussion on this topic.

I have been told by many people that when in a big way I should just keep tracking and throw out in the track.

But he said he did it to open faster...I have been told this as well.

Quote

Canopy opening speed depends on airspeed, and in a good flat track the airspeed is lower

Well I agree that the FALL RATE will decrease, but there will also be forward motion that will help with the deployment.

Use your skills to fiqure out what the speed of a jumper in a good track is when you factor both fall rate and forward speed.

If you can prove it...I have no problem learning something new.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,433]

>Canopy opening speed depends on airspeed, and in a good flat
> track the airspeed is lower.

Your vertical speed is lower, but your total airspeed may not be. I've gotten hard openings in a wingsuit with a vertical speed of 60mph.

[diverdriver 5]

Ummm....I dump in my track and I think I have a pretty good track. I know you've seen it before. I don't think you can make that leap that he doesn't track good if he dumps in a track.

Chris

[petetheladd 0]

PLease do not high jack this tread

If you wish to discuss the merits of opening in a track start a NEW tread on it.

This thread is about todays ideas of pulling high and the possible danger it poses

No, Not without incident

[froglady 0]

"People who are pulling high >3500 do not believe they should go to the back of the jump run to avoid colliding with people opening at 2500ft."

I'm getting confused(which isn't unusual). When you say pulling high do you mean this is when they wave off, or are they in the saddle at 3500?

FrogLady

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

>Canopy opening speed depends on airspeed, and in a good flat
> track the airspeed is lower.

Your vertical speed is lower, but your total airspeed may not be. I've gotten hard openings in a wingsuit with a vertical speed of 60mph.

How is a wing suit relevant to a 4-way team that dumps in a track?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Ummm....I dump in my track and I think I have a pretty good track. I know you've seen it before. I don't think you can make that leap that he doesn't track good if he dumps in a track.

Chris

Re-read what he wrote. He dumped in a track to speed up his openings which implies a higher airspeed in the track.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Re-read what he wrote. He dumped in a track to speed up his openings which implies a higher airspeed in
the track.

Yeah AIRSPEED, not FALLRATE.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,433]

>How is a wing suit relevant to a 4-way team that dumps in a track?

If a 4-way team wants to speed up their openings, and they have good tracks that increase their airspeed but decrease their vertical speed, dumping in a track may be a good idea.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

Re-read what he wrote. He dumped in a track to speed up his openings which implies a higher airspeed in
the track.

Yeah AIRSPEED, not FALLRATE.

Taking the following as an example of a good track with a fast forward speed:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=95781;search_string=glide%20ratio;#95781

Then Derek's airspeed would be 116mph after vector addition of the horizontal and vertical components. And this with a glide ratio exceeding 1:1

A good flat track should decrease your airspeed below 4-way speeds.


Edited to fix URL

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

>How is a wing suit relevant to a 4-way team that dumps in a track?

If a 4-way team wants to speed up their openings, and they have good tracks that increase their airspeed but decrease their vertical speed, dumping in a track may be a good idea.

If their tracks are good their airspeeds will decrease unless they achieve glide ratios well over 1:1, which I doubt will happen without a wingsuit.

A 80mph fall rate is achievable in a RW suit in a good flat track. You'd need a horizontal speed of 90mph to get an airspeed of 120.

You were just at Cross Keys. Don't tell me you didn't see dozens of experienced jumpers in a delta instead of a good flat track at break-off. These are the guys who claim to speed up in a "track".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[petetheladd 0]

Quote

Quote

>How is a wing suit relevant to a 4-way team that dumps in a track?

If a 4-way team wants to speed up their openings, and they have good tracks that increase their airspeed but decrease their vertical speed, dumping in a track may be a good idea.

If their tracks are good their airspeeds will decrease unless they achieve glide ratios well over 1:1, which I doubt will happen without a wingsuit.

A 80mph fall rate is achievable in a RW suit in a good flat track. You'd need a horizontal speed of 90mph to get an airspeed of 120.

You were just at Cross Keys. Don't tell me you didn't see dozens of experienced jumpers in a delta instead of a good flat track at break-off. These are the guys who claim to speed up in a "track".

Now I already asked nicely ...

Please take this crap to another thread - If I wanted a discussion on tracking it would be in the thread header

Ron/Kallend this means you

Bill - you are a moderator - can you chuck this track debate elsewhere.

No, Not without incident

[Ron 7]

Quote

Then Derek's airspeed would be 116mph after vector addition of the horizontal and vertical components. And this with
a glide ratio exceeding 1:1

Then how did Quade come up with :

Quote

If you had a Pro-track on and it said you had a fall rate of 100 and you actually had a 1:1 track (which
isn't -quite- obtainable without a wing suit) then while your horizontal movement would be 100 as well,
your true airspeed would be 141ish.

It's all that stuff the Strawman said at the end of the Wizard of Oz. Ya know, about the square of the
hypotentuse? Hmmm, methinks there was somebody before him that said it as well, Pythagoras if'n I
recall.

141 is faster than 4 way.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

Then Derek's airspeed would be 116mph after vector addition of the horizontal and vertical components. And this with
a glide ratio exceeding 1:1

Then how did Quade come up with :

Quote

If you had a Pro-track on and it said you had a fall rate of 100 and you actually had a 1:1 track (which
isn't -quite- obtainable without a wing suit) then while your horizontal movement would be 100 as well,
your true airspeed would be 141ish.

It's all that stuff the Strawman said at the end of the Wizard of Oz. Ya know, about the square of the
hypotentuse? Hmmm, methinks there was somebody before him that said it as well, Pythagoras if'n I
recall.

141 is faster than 4 way.

Quade's numbers were hypothetical, Derek's were measured.

I can invent numbers too. I'll invent 60 forward and 60 horizontal, that's slower than 4-way.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Quade's numbers were hypothetical, Derek's were measured.

Well ok then. I was wrong.

But the theory that dumping in track to speed up the opening has been around for sometime. I have been told it many times....

And when I am on a big way...(Yeah like I do those anymore) I dump in a track to just to keep getting away from everyone else.

Distance away is distance away.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

Quote

Quade's numbers were hypothetical . . .

Not just hypothetical, but specifically chosen to make the math easier to understand.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,433]

>Bill - you are a moderator - can you chuck this track debate elsewhere.

I would if it got out of hand, but the thread drift hasn't stopped anyone from talking about pull altitudes - and talking about pulling in a track is well within the realm of safety and training.

[petetheladd 0]

Quote

>Bill - you are a moderator - can you chuck this track debate elsewhere.

I would if it got out of hand, but the thread drift hasn't stopped anyone from talking about pull altitudes - and talking about pulling in a track is well within the realm of safety and training.

Its been 10 posts and not one mentions a pull altitude, you have to go all the way back to froglady to find an altitude mentioned.

But never mind, I consider this thread dead/trolled -shame Maybe I'll start a pull altitude take two thread

No, Not without incident

[crutch 0]

That is an admission that your track was not very good.

Kallend, where did this insult come from, geez, I don't even know you, but it is obvious that you know very little about skydiving.

Years ago when the first Florida hundred-way was built in Deland, we broke off at between 4500 and 5500'. To most people in the new to this sport (started in the last five years) this seems absolutely idiotic. Trust me it sounded bad to us at the time too, but if everyone is disciplined, tracks properly and pulls at the assigened altitude, everyone is safe. We made 15 jumps in three days without any incidents. Sounds crazy, hell no, faster opening canopies, hell, I have the fastest opening canopy that I have ever owned. The biggest difference is more people had more confidence in their and the people around them's abilitly to do what was asked of them.
If you are so scared of your canopy that you need to open above 4000', you are jumping the wrong canopy, not too complicated.

blue skies,

art

[crutch 0]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Back when my team was doing 4-way is was very common to dump in a track to make your canopy
open in a shorter period of time.



That is an admission that your track was not very good.
------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How in the hell do you reach that conclusion?

I see it as he opened in track to open his canopy faster.
And in fact he said just that...Where do you get that his track was bad? He never said that he opened in a track to continue to get away from everyone.

You just went to apples when he said oranges.

Ron

FWIW...The guy has 7,000 jumps...I bet he tracks just fine

Thank you for expalining this to someone who doesn't know any better.

blue skies,

art

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

That is an admission that your track was not very good.

Kallend, where did this insult come from, geez, I don't even know you, but it is obvious that you know very little about skydiving.

Years ago when the first Florida hundred-way was built in Deland, we broke off at between 4500 and 5500'. To most people in the new to this sport (started in the last five years) this seems absolutely idiotic. Trust me it sounded bad to us at the time too, but if everyone is disciplined, tracks properly and pulls at the assigened altitude, everyone is safe. We made 15 jumps in three days without any incidents. Sounds crazy, hell no, faster opening canopies, hell, I have the fastest opening canopy that I have ever owned. The biggest difference is more people had more confidence in their and the people around them's abilitly to do what was asked of them.
If you are so scared of your canopy that you need to open above 4000', you are jumping the wrong canopy, not too complicated.

Explain how your canopy opens faster in a good FLAT track.

I agree it opens faster in a delta track, but that's not a good track.

Who said I deploy above 4000ft? Last weekend I was deploying at 2200ft as instructed, in a track from a 6000ft breakoff.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Kallend, where did this insult come from, geez, I don't even know you, but it is obvious that you know very little about skydiving.

OK, I admit it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Meadman 0]

I believe the Body acts like a big slider and blocks air entry into the canopy. With Forward motion air hits the tail and inflates back to front faster. I dont think fall rate actually has as much to do with it as the air stream that your body creates behind you.

But then again, I got like 50 jumps so i dont really know jack. I do know what riding in the very back of the 206 is like, and Ill keep sitting there and pulling high. I just cant think of any situation where 500 more feet would be bad.