Object turbulence

[freeflir29 0]

Cross posting this from Talkback. Had a nasty experience with turbulence on Saturday and I thought it important to share. Stay heads up out there. This turbulence REALLY caught me off guard. It wasn't even that windy out. Probably not over 15MPH. Just a bad area and the perfectly WRONG conditions I guess.


I Came fairly close to getting broken on jump #3. Started a 270 hook. Had to turn harder than I wanted to because of traffic. About 200 degrees into it the riser pressure got too damn high and I had to let up. So I bled some speed off but now I'm pretty low. I gave the left front another small pull to finish off the turn. Normally, the Stiletto will make a short dive and then give me some nice extra speed for landing. Because of the weird turbulence in the area (downwind of tall trees) my parachute did something it has NEVER done before. It just plain refused to fly. Never made any type of recovery at all. It just sunk. I couldn't do anything but bury the toggles. Which had pretty much ZERO effect. Luckily......I have a BOAT of a canopy and was able to just slide in on my ass. WHEW!!! That could have been much worse. Especially if I had been on the 135 I am about to get.

[andy2 0]

so what will you do from now on to avoid unexpected turbulence? I would imagine you wouldn't want to swoop anywhere near large trees. I think the guys that swoop 100 yards from anything are the smart guys. What do you think?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[turnlow 0]

Be careful brother! I don't know what you're loading your current canopy at, but going from a 170 to a 135 is a pretty big jump - especially at 335 jumps. You are right in the danger zone, 200 - 500 jumps, when many jumpers hurt themselves badly. Consider an interim step, maybe a 150 for a while. I will tell you from experience that a Stiletto 135 is much more sensitive to toggle input and and much less forgiving than a 170.

Blue ones,

_________________________________________________

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

[freeflir29 0]

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so what will you do from now on to avoid unexpected turbulence?

Land on the far side of the runway on days like that. Seriously....I haven't seen a DZ with winds this squirelly since Raeford.

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I don't know what you're loading your current canopy at, but going from a 170 to a 135 is a pretty big jump

Loading currently around 1.25-1.3 depending on how much crap I ate that particular week. It's not THAT big of a jump really. Only 35 square feet. I don't want to risk the wrath of the Canopy Nazis around here so I'll keep my mouth shut on the name of this particular canopy. I'll just say that the new one will have MUCH higher performance in turns, much better bottom end, better openings, and better swoop-ed-duh than a Stiletto.

[turnlow 0]

Not to be a Canopy Nazi, but in my opinion, that is a bit too aggressive of a jump. You are going from 1.25 to 1.6 and to a higher performance design in one fell swoop. It sounds like you have a reasonable grasp of canopy piloting - enough to know that 35 square feet and a higher performace canopy is a substantial jump. Get a 150 and learn to fly tha to it's limits before you get that 135. You have your entire life to jump smaller and smaller canopies - if you downsize smartly.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

[freeflir29 0]

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It sounds like you have a reasonable grasp of canopy piloting - enough to know that 35 square feet and a higher performace canopy is a substantial jump.

It is and it isn't a big jump. For High Performance landings....yeah....it's gonna be a big change but the new one is "Damn Slow" , "Boatish", "takes up the sky" when flying "straight and level" Basically.....it only goes fast when you want it to. That way I shouldn't have any problems with out landings, night jumps, any time I want to take it easy. I just have to be careful when getting "riser happy." Plus....I don't think I can find one of these canopies in a 150 unless I want to pay $2500+ for a custom size.

[billvon 2,473]

> I would imagine you wouldn't want to swoop anywhere near large trees.

A good rule of thumb is the 10 to 1 rule. If a tree is 50 feet tall, land AT LEAST 500 feet away if you're at all downwind of it. 1000 feet is probably a good idea to give you some margin.

I once put myself in a wheelchair for a month landing too close to a treeline. So I know not to do that now.

[freeflir29 0]

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A good rule of thumb is the 10 to 1 rule. If a tree is 50 feet tall, land AT LEAST 500 feet away if you're at all downwind of it. 1000 feet is probably a good idea to give you some margin.

Yeah....we were discussing this exact thing yesterday. The only bad thing....at this DZ if you tried to get that far away from these trees. You'd be in the other tree line.

[parachutist 1]

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About 200 degrees into it the riser pressure got too damn high and I had to let up. So I bled some speed off but now I'm pretty low. I gave the left front another small pull to finish off the turn.

This part makes me wonder if you may have experienced the pendulum effect instead of turbulence: did the canopy start to plane out when you bled off some speed? If you come out of a diving turn high, and then try to go back into a dive, you'll have a brief period of time during which the canopy has negligible flare.

Here's a poster I made up describing some sources of turbulence:
http://www.funjump.com/photos/Turbulence_Diagram.jpg


Chris

[sducoach 0]

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I Came fairly close to getting broken on jump #3. Started a 270 hook. Had to turn harder than I wanted to because of traffic.

One,



About 200 degrees into it the riser pressure got too damn high and I had to let up. So I bled some speed off but now I'm pretty low.

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Two,

I gave the left front another small pull to finish off the turn.

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Two and a half,

Because of the weird turbulence in the area (downwind of tall trees) my parachute did something it has NEVER done before. It just plain refused to fly. Never made any type of recovery at all. It just sunk.

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Two and three quarters,

I couldn't do anything but bury the toggles. Which had pretty much ZERO effect.

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Three!!!

Luckily......I have a BOAT of a canopy and was able to just slide in on my ass. WHEW!!! That could have been much worse. Especially if I had been on the 135 I am about to get.

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Bold Print Added By Me.........


Did we learn anything from our.........

was able to just slide in on my ass. WHEW!!!
***

............landing? Hope so. Glad you are okay.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[freeflir29 0]

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did the canopy start to plane out when you bled off some speed?

It was pretty much fully recovered. I was a bit cross wind and it recovered HARD because of the stiff wind. Then I got into the "Bermuda Triangle" as they call it here and got sucked into the ground.

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Did we learn anything from our.........
was able to just slide in on my ass. WHEW!!

Yeah.......don't hook there when there is turbulence.

[sducoach 0]

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did the canopy start to plane out when you bled off some speed?

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It was pretty much fully recovered. I was a bit cross wind and it recovered HARD because of the stiff wind. Then I got into the "Bermuda Triangle" as they call it here and got sucked into the ground.

I don't know where you pull this quote from.

But, here is the phone number for my x-brother-in-law, 1-800-555-Help. He's with American Family. (Our little private joke!)

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Did we learn anything from our.........
was able to just slide in on my ass. WHEW!!

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Yeah.......don't hook there when there is turbulence.

One.....................................

James 4:8

[wmw999 2,173]

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Yeah.......don't hook there when there is turbulence.

Did you know there was turbulence? How will you know in the future?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikkey 0]

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Yeah.......don't hook there when there is turbulence.

Did you know there was turbulence? How will you know in the future?

Wendy W.

Ouchh.... Wendy hits the nail where it hurts.... Maybe lesson is to be a little more conservative in stronger wind conditions.... maybe lesson is that you might want to think one more time before downsizing from 1.2 to 1.6 ??? (taking cover now)

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

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Wendy hits the nail where it hurts.... Maybe lesson is to be a little more conservative in stronger wind conditions.... maybe lesson is that you might want to think one more time before downsizing from 1.2 to 1.6 ??? (taking cover now)

Well....Here's the deal. In the past few months I have flown in some UGLY conditions. 30 MPH + the day I was at Byron. But that was a smooth 30MPH. This 15 or so and dangerous. Just wasn't used to it. Vrey unpredictable here in Ohio. Especially at this DZ. I'll take my cross braced 135. It's not that big of a deal. I'm a good canopy pilot and if I break myself. You have my full permission to say "I told you so." Even if it is over my coffin. I really don't care....you have to die of something. Skydiving is good with me.

[w4p2 0]

I am in no position to comment on technicalities related to skydiving. However I find your attitude amusing considering the advice you have just received.

I hope your sense of humor just momentarily took over from your common sense.

Cheers: JL

[Tonto 1]

Front riser input is not advisable in turbulence. But you can't see turbulence.

It's part of the whole "toggle turns are dangerous and front riser turns are safe" propaganda campagne.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[LawnDart21 0]

Flying in "smooth" 30mph+ winds at Byron? Under a 170 stilleto, loaded 1.3ish?

Too funny........

[Ron 7]

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I'll take my cross braced 135. It's not that big of a deal.
I'm a good canopy pilot and if I break myself. You have my full permission to say "I told you so." Even if it
is over my coffin.

And you damn well know I will.

You are right in the middle of the range and wingload of the dead skydivers last year.

The fact that you blew that last hook, and that you did it in an area that had turbulance...makes me question

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I'm a good canopy pilot

Everyone thinks they are ahead of the power curve.

For your sake, I hope you are correct.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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You have my full permission to say "I told you so." Even if it is over my coffin. I really don't care....you have to die of something. Skydiving is good with me.

Probably said in jest but that's still not funny to me. You have a responsibility to not break yourself. Think of the hurt it does to our sport and local DZ when the press gets ahold of it. Your friends here are trying gently to nudge you away from a course that seems to agressive and others have gone down that same path before you. We see you as that friend on the train tracks with a train coming. Do you see the train coming? We seem to think we do. Step off the tracks please. Humor us.

I would say that the lesson here is that you have more to learn on the current canopy than you think. Just burying the toggles and getting no flare should tell you you need to explore your current canopy further. Years ago at WFFC it went around that people were getting injured bad in high winds (turbulent) because they were exposing the topskin to the turbulence. Well, it's not exposing the topskin to turbulence rather than just flying your canopy through turbulent air that's the problem. When winds are calm you have a certain performance. But when winds are turbulent you have to expect a loss of performance. You need to increase your margins. Downsizing does not increase your margins.

I really don't know what "better bottom end" is. If you double the speed on any wing you quadruple the lilft. That's basic aerodynamics. So having a better bottom end with a smaller canopy only means it is getting more lift because it is trimmed (possibly) to fly faster. Then when you turn it and add more speed you again increase the possible lift. So both canopies will have to suspend your weight (because that hasn't changed) with the same amount of lift. The smaller canopy will just have to do it at a higher speed because that's the laws of aerodynamics.

So, going through a turbulent area with a smaller canopy will have a smaller margin to produce the lift you need. Are you still sure you want to downsize for the reasons you've stated here? Do you think you can land that canopy straight in without hooking it? If no, don't jump it. I can land my Stilleto 107 straight in without hooking at 1.6:1. Swooping is not a right. It's a privilege.

[/stirn fatherly "chat"]

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[heftee 0]

Amen Chris!

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"If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane."
David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel)

[parachutist 1]

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did the canopy start to plane out when you bled off some speed?

It was pretty much fully recovered. I was a bit cross wind and it recovered HARD because of the stiff wind. Then I got into the "Bermuda Triangle" as they call it here and got sucked into the ground.

This does sound like typical pendulum effect scenario: recover from a dive high and then canopy must fly downward again, whether just by letting it fly or by getting into front risers. Your body has swung forward under the canopy as it recovered; then as you start to dive again your body begins to swing back, but the canopy isn't really in a dive yet. You get little flare at this point, whether you're in clean or turbulent air.. try it up high.

If the problem you experienced was only turbulence, then usually you will feel bumps. With the issue I described above you really don't get any bumps until you hit the ground, and that's more like a *thud* =]

Chris

[turnlow 0]

Can't tell you why I'm bothering to post again, but the particulars from the recent fatality at CSS look similar to your situation. Look here: http://www.hookturn.com/ He loved to hook turn, had some questionable recent landing and downsized two canopy sizes to a more aggressive canopy. In my opinion, this is the exact reason for the existance of these forums - learn from this guy's very sad and unecessary death.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a canopy nazi by any stretch of the imagination. But, there is a very fine line between aggressively downsizing and foolhardiness.
_________________________________________________

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

[freeflir29 0]

Well...Opinions are like assholes. All I'll say is that people on this site also repeatedly told me I was going to kill myself when I bought my Stiletto at 130 some jumps. I took it slow...learned the canopy well. In fact....I'm probably more dangerous on it now than I was 100 jumps ago. I have kinda lost respect for it because I have 200+ jumps on it. That landing last weekend was the first time in a year or so that I haven't stood up a landing.

[mikkey 0]

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Well...Opinions are like assholes. All I'll say is that people on this site also repeatedly told me I was going to kill myself when I bought my Stiletto at 130 some jumps.

So what you are saying is that you do not give a shit about other peoples opinion? So why did you start this thread in the first place?

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In fact....I'm probably more dangerous on it now than I was 100 jumps ago. I have kinda lost respect for it because I have 200+ jumps on it. That landing last weekend was the first time in a year or so that I haven't stood up a landing.

(\shouting) Ron! Billvon! Hook! come over here.... I found your "prime example" of what you are talking about when you say we need some kind of regulation / mandatory education....

Sure not everybody that does what you do is going to be hurt or killed, but boy, you sure are playing the odds..... I just hope you'll be safe and sound in spite of your attitude....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.