Slink2 0 #1 February 23, 2003 Anyone out there jumping the reflex and are you doing the catapult thing? I'm sure the catapult topic has been covered before...pros and cons. -The Reflex leaves you answered with a question mark. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #2 February 23, 2003 QuoteAnyone out there jumping the reflex and are you doing the catapult thing? I'm sure the catapult topic has been covered before...pros and cons. i don't have a reflex now, but i did. i think the catapult idea is great. i totally recomend it. most don't like it, but i personally do. it is just a extra saftey precation. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #3 February 23, 2003 I used to; sold it when I upsized. I had the Catapult installed. There's several threads on this here; do a search. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #4 February 23, 2003 I have one, catapult installed. I've heard so many reasons to remove it, but as far as I've ever heard none of those problems have ever actually occured. On the other hand, I have heard of the catapult saving someone's life when the other reserve pilot chute had been incorrectly packed (under the decorative cover so it was useless). I bought mine from my former rigger. It had been his personal rig (the few times he jumped I guess). He was a BIG fan of the catapult. I never knew why until I found out he was the rigger that had fucked up. I would consider removing mine if anyone could show me any evidence that the catapult actually makes the rig less safe. It actually would take very little to convince me. The fact that every VERY experienced jumper that I've asked has told me to get it removed is nearly enough. Problem is none of them have given me a good enough reason. Not that I'm waiting for it to kill someone (it could be me), but I just havent been convinced that the potential dangers it adds outweigh the potential benefits. I haven't had any major problems with my reflex. But my next container will be something else. No specific reasons. The only issue i've had was a poorly packed reserve pilot chute that kept coming loose for one repack cycle. But I'm getting tired of jumping a rig that some riggers refuse to pack and too many people disagree on. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slink2 0 #5 February 23, 2003 Do a search? you have topics 3 days old here that get repeated! Opinions may have changed since it was Flite (whatever) to Bomber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slink2 0 #7 February 23, 2003 Yeah my brother has one and his pop top reserve was like 1/2 inch above the container. I told him get that shit looked at now! If micro lines can snag a tiny grommet unseated what the f^*CK are you in for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #8 February 23, 2003 I have a reflex, but haven't jumped it in over a year. My only reserve ride on it I didn't have the catapult installed, it worked fine with out. I'm using that rig to get my riggers ticket since it isn't being used and since there isn't a cypres in it. Anyway after looking at the poptop pilot chute it looks soooo small compared to other reserve pilot chutes, it is ZP so that does make a difference but the spring is also heavier. Anyway, I put the catapult back on the bridle and will leave it that way since even though I know better it just doesn't seem like there is enough pilot chute. And yes I am dating one of those riggers that refuses to pack reflexes, and you should have seen him do the happy dance when I ordered a mirage. Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Poczynek 0 #9 February 23, 2003 Slink2, Jumped a Reflex for a couple of years with the catapolt system, never had any problems with the harness / container - never had a reserve ride with it though - oh but the grief I would get from riggers - everything from get rid of it, I won't pack it, needs special tools, funky closing loop, and on and on - finaly broke down and went with an Odysee - bye the way anyone looking for a very inexpensive Reflex? phat, dumb & happy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #10 February 23, 2003 Quoteyou have topics 3 days old here that get repeated! So why add to the noise level? 17 pages of Reflex opinions, from 2001-2003. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rpanter 0 #11 February 25, 2003 Here is my opinion as a rigger and Reflex owner. First of all the catapult is not a bad idea, I've had two reserve rides but nothing that the catapult would have done anything for (both low speed, nothing special). All the catapult is intended to due is help correct a horseshoe malfunction. Second all rig manufactures have people that worked for another manufactures at one time or another and use ideas from each other that are real good (ie three ring, BOC, bridel protection ect) so if it were that important all rigs would have it. Third removing it makes the reserve pack volume smaller. As far as packing the reserve Reflex and Racers get a bad rap for packing, not true. I can pack a racer or Reflex FASTER than a Javlin and make them look great. Anybody that claimes they are hard needs proper training end of story. If a rigger complains about special tools is crazy, just one T-bodkin for Reflex and two for Racer plus soft bodkin (long Cypres cord made into a long closing loop), every rigger should have these tools. Forth if a Reflex or Racer has a gap in the pop top it is the rigger that does not know how to properly pack one, following the manufacture instructions plus training from an experienced rigger whom has packed them should fix this issue (FAA states a rigger MUST follow the manufacture instructions when packing a reserve). I don't even charge extra to pack a Reflex or Racer, unless the Racer needs a new closing loop which should not be that often due to the closing procedure. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #12 February 25, 2003 Sure, all riggers should be able to do every rig, and all that is needed is proper training. But that doesn't help out the guy who needs a repack now, and the extra grief that people actually experience in at least the uneducated part of the real world can be enough to persuade many that it is not worth it. In pragmatic terms, it is an advantage to not have such a rig.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 February 25, 2003 >oh but the grief I would get from riggers . . . I find the reflex reserve pretty easy to pack. >bye the way anyone looking for a very inexpensive Reflex? What size person/canopies? Large or small harness rings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rpanter 0 #14 February 25, 2003 I don't understand your reply/post. Riggers are tested on general packing and regulations, which state following manufacture instructions is a must. A Reflex with a poptop not seated properly is not following manufacture instructions. A rigger is not required to be able to pack all rigs, but should refuse to pack a rig that he/she cannot do properly (ie not have a manual or skill/training). I have seen bad pack jobs on Javlins, the most popular rig out there. Getting a reserve repack is not an emergency a rig owner should carefully choose their rigger just like they choose a doctor or lawyer. They both have licenses to practice but also have areas of speciality. All three can save your life but a rigger is preemptive since you don't know when you will use his/her work. One should check references and look at pack jobs that a rigger has done in advance of needing one should correct any issues with having any type of equipment. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #15 February 25, 2003 You can pack your own. If I'm at a boogie and use my reserve, I would rather not need to worry about it, I want to get it packed. Of course all riggers should be able to follow instructions, and deserve criticism if they do not. But I'd just rather have a rig that you never hear anyone complaining about being difficult. I certainly don't see the advantage of any of the exposed pilot chute rigs. Some riggers either bitch about it, decline the work, or do it badly. That is the reality. Wishing they would all change their ways is not going to change it.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rpanter 0 #16 February 25, 2003 Javlin, Wings and Dolphins are semi exposed poptops and take the same care in packing to make look good. So the only way to avoid seeing careless rigging (due to loose poptops) is to own a rig that has a completly enclosed reserve pilot chute system like a Vector. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #17 February 25, 2003 Or an Infinity! People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #18 February 25, 2003 Yeah it is true that any licensed rigger should be competent to pack a reflex, but it's also true that some riggers won't pack them no matter what. I've been refused by one rigger so far. While we're on the subject, I have a question. Would it be possible for a toggle to come loose in freefall and get caught under the pop top causing a problem on deployment? I've never had a toggle come loose or even had any flaps open in freefall, but it must be possible. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rpanter 0 #19 February 25, 2003 First if properly stowed (toggle) it should not be able to come loose. I had a Reflex velcro-less toggle with a broken lower tuck tab that worked fine for over 100 jumps, if it would have failed it would have been during deployment (ie brake fire). Second again if properly packed the poptop should be sunk into the reserve and there be no room for anything to get under it, even a line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #20 February 25, 2003 Quote I haven't had any major problems with my reflex. But my next container will be something else. No specific reasons. The only issue i've had was a poorly packed reserve pilot chute that kept coming loose for one repack cycle. But I'm getting tired of jumping a rig that some riggers refuse to pack and too many people disagree on. That sounds like a major problem to me. Riggers don't like to pack it. The manufacturer claims that most riggers "don't know how to pack it" hence the pop top constantly loosening and creating dangerous snag points as well as increased reserve pin forces when it is tightened down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #21 February 25, 2003 It's not that hard to pack if you just read the manual and ask some other riggers how they do it. Hell, I'm not even a licensed rigger and I thought it was way easier to pack than a Vector. My pop top almost never needed adjustment after packing. And if it did it just took a couple of tugs and it was good for the rest of the repack. And yes, it was all under the supervision of a licensed rigger. Edit: And it did NOT increase the pull force on the pin. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #22 February 26, 2003 Quote Edit: And it did NOT increase the pull force on the pin. Any time you cinch it down it most certainly does increase the pull force. Whether the amount is acceptable or not is open to interpretation, but the fact that it does is not. Mine would not stay closed no matter who packed it. That's not a good selling point. Do you spill your riggers beer while he's packing you? Do you hit on his girlfriend? Insult him? No because it irritates him. Well for many riggers handing them a reflex in the first place accomplishes that. It's your decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #23 February 26, 2003 >No because it irritates him. Well for many riggers handing them a reflex >in the first place accomplishes that. So if your reserve was blue, you would honestly search out a rigger that liked that color and was not irritated by it? I've known many riggers; not one of them would take less care on a rig that "irritated" them. Most riggers take their responsibilities far more seriously than that; if such things concern you about your rigger I'd strongly suggest finding a new one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #24 February 26, 2003 If you do not construct the closing loop correctly the finger trap will let the closing loop slide open and the poptop can "sit up". That's loosening so if you sinch it down again the pull force does not increase beyond what it was before. Also, I've pull tested my ripcord and it was within limits after sinching. I've also ridden my reserve on my reflex and the pull force was lighter than my Racer was. Go figure. As I said before. Only sometimes did I have to resinch the closing loop after packing. I found those people who had to constantly have it sinched down again had incorrectly made closing loops where the through part sat on the grommet and allowed it to loosen up. That's why I made measurements of the closing loop I constructed and sent it to Fliteline through a dealer. My understanding was that those measurements were then added into the manual for later production. I don't know that for certain. That's just what I was told. Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #25 February 26, 2003 I never had to use it, but I was glad it was there... (the catepault sys.) anywyas when i had a reflex I had to sinch the pop top down every 100 jumps or so.. I never used the reserve in the air, but I did pull it every time before its repack was due and never had much of a problem getting it out.. -yoshi btw... if the rigger is a good one he shouldnt have any issues with packing it.. I kow riggers that have packed so many pop tops that they almost prefer having one... well thats just my 2 pennies_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
