LtDan 0 #1 March 16, 2003 Hi, I have a friend that wants to switch from a sabre 150 to a stiletto 150. He weighs about 170 Lbs and he has a little over a 100 jumps. I would like your opinons. Peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 March 16, 2003 Has he talked to the local JM's and STA about this yet? They are more qualified then anyone here to know if he's capible of it or not. Canopy Nazi #2Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #3 March 16, 2003 I myself would not make that switch yet, I had over 1000 jumps before downsizing from a Sabre 150 to a Stiletto 135, I'm glad I waited as long as I did as they are vastly different in flight characteristics (glide, flare, turning). I also had over 500 jumps on the Sabre. Don't let your friend downsize too soon as is the tendency in this sport, learn to fly the canopy he has should be his first priority downsizing after he has it really nailed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunman 0 #4 March 16, 2003 I've flown a Sabre 150 and a Stilleto 150 and I don't think they fly all that different. The Stilleto is a little faster, has a better glide ratio, and loses more altitude in turns. Your friend should be able to fly the shit out of that Sabre before going to the Stilleto. When you can't possibly fly and land your canopy any better, then, and only then, should you think about downsizing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #5 March 16, 2003 Quote When you can't possibly fly and land your canopy any better, then, and only then, should you think about downsizing. I would agree that one needs to be able to fly their current canopy to it's full extent before changing canopies. So maybe I'm caught up in semantics here. But his friend isn't downsizing, he's changing canopy types. More importantly he wants to fly an elliptical canopy. Now I'm not one to talk or judge (yesterday I downsized the same canopy type from a 190 to a 170 and did notice a difference in the two that I need to master before I ever think of changing canopies again). But I do wonder if 100 jumps is enough experience to have before going to an elliptical canopy? I know I'm not the one to make that sort of call and only the experienced people who know this canopy pilot the best can guide him. By the way, I need to get off of my ass now (stop posting here) and get to the DZ (even though the weather is questionable) and get more experience flying this new canopy of mine. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #6 March 17, 2003 Personally I think a sabre 150 is to small for a 100 jump jumper @ 170 lbs.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #7 March 17, 2003 QuoteI myself would not make that switch yet, I had over 1000 jumps before downsizing from a Sabre 150 to a Stiletto 135, I'm glad I waited as long as I did as they are vastly different in flight characteristics (glide, flare, turning). I also had over 500 jumps on the Sabre. Don't let your friend downsize too soon as is the tendency in this sport, learn to fly the canopy he has should be his first priority downsizing after he has it really nailed. 150 to 150 is downsizing? What kind of math is that?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunman 0 #8 March 17, 2003 Quote150 to 150 is downsizing? What kind of math is that? Going from 150 square to 150 elliptical is like downsizing. You know what what we mean. QuoteBut his friend isn't downsizing, he's changing canopy types. Again, correct. Just easier to say downsizing than "going from square to elliptical". Whether you're downsizing or going from square to elliptical, the results are the same: A step up in performance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #9 March 17, 2003 Quote The Stilleto is a little faster, Actually, it's not.... "II. General Concepts that are frequently misunderstood A. Different canopy models of the same size may perform differently, but they will fly approximately the same speed. Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed." http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #10 March 17, 2003 Quote I have a friend I love stories that start like that. Going from a Sabre of one size to a Stiletto of the same size is definitely the way the experts would recommend doing it. I find it hard to believe, however, that someone with 100 jumps has rung out a Sabre loaded around 1.2 -1.3:1. At 100 jumps, he might be just starting to perfect the landings on that thing. He will find a lot more forgiveness on the front risers of a Sabre than he will on a Stilletto. And if he wants to switch to a Stiletto at 100 jumps, I have to believe he has the mindset necessary to be doing front riser turns to final. Stick with the Sabre for at least another 100 jumps would be my advice. To your friend.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #11 March 17, 2003 Now I'm confused, when is a Sabre 150 to a Stilleto 135 150 to 150? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #12 March 17, 2003 QuoteQuote150 to 150 is downsizing? What kind of math is that? Going from 150 square to 150 elliptical is like downsizing. You know what what we mean. QuoteBut his friend isn't downsizing, he's changing canopy types. Again, correct. Just easier to say downsizing than "going from square to elliptical". Whether you're downsizing or going from square to elliptical, the results are the same: A step up in performance. It may be easier to say, but it's still WRONG.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #13 March 17, 2003 QuoteNow I'm confused, when is a Sabre 150 to a Stilleto 135 150 to 150? Re-read his original post. He was talking about going from a Sabre150 to a Stiletto150 - not about downsizing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #14 March 17, 2003 Quote Quote I have a friend I love stories that start like that. Going from a Sabre of one size to a Stiletto of the same size is definitely the way the experts would recommend doing it. I find it hard to believe, however, that someone with 100 jumps has rung out a Sabre loaded around 1.2 -1.3:1. At 100 jumps, he might be just starting to perfect the landings on that thing. He will find a lot more forgiveness on the front risers of a Sabre than he will on a Stilletto. And if he wants to switch to a Stiletto at 100 jumps, I have to believe he has the mindset necessary to be doing front riser turns to final. Stick with the Sabre for at least another 100 jumps would be my advice. To your friend. I bought a Stiletto 150 as my first canopy, at 40 jumps. Still flying it. It just flies more like I want than does the Sabre 150 I did my student jumps on. You don't HAVE to fly it like a maniac.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunman 0 #15 March 18, 2003 Quote It may be easier to say, but it's still WRONG. So next time you're on a SUNSET load, be sure to refer to it as "the load at which the perceived position of the sun is lowest in the sky due to the rotation of the earth". It may be a pain in the ass to say, but at least it won't be WRONG. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #16 March 18, 2003 Quote Quote It may be easier to say, but it's still WRONG. So next time you're on a SUNSET load, be sure to refer to it as "the load at which the perceived position of the sun is lowest in the sky due to the rotation of the earth". It may be a pain in the ass to say, but at least it won't be WRONG. Going from a 150 to a 150 isn't downsizing. Wriggle all you want, but that's the fact. Your analogy is absurd and inappropriate.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #17 March 18, 2003 I think he should be fine -- just warn him that he'll lose a bit more altitude in turns, so to plan long finals on his first few jumps with it, til he gets to know the canopy. If he not downsizing, only switching models, there's not much to worry about. I work ina geat store at my DZ, and we have several rental rigs, with Sabre2's and Stilettos in them. Everyone, EVERYONE who rents from us prefers the Stilettos. One guy will chioose a Stiletto 2 sixes larger than what he usually jumps, just so he can have Stiletto, even if there's a Sabre2 of his regular size hanging on the rack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #18 March 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteI myself would not make that switch yet, I had over 1000 jumps before downsizing from a Sabre 150 to a Stiletto 135, I'm glad I waited as long as I did as they are vastly different in flight characteristics (glide, flare, turning). I also had over 500 jumps on the Sabre. Don't let your friend downsize too soon as is the tendency in this sport, learn to fly the canopy he has should be his first priority downsizing after he has it really nailed. 150 to 150 is downsizing? What kind of math is that? Kallend - if you would reread the initial post which HAS NOT been edited, perhaps you would've realized you made a mistake right off the bat. Absurd? Inappropriate?? Absurdity insinuates "having no purpose or meaning". So in effect, you are saying that this skydiver's question isn't worth answering? We all know what you mean airgord and, LtDan, I think there is quite a bit of good sense in learning to fly the sabre in as many different types of situations as possible in order to be as safe as possible under a HIGHER PERFORMANCE canopy where your friend would have to react faster to situations. The locals jumping with him would know best. Good luck. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #19 March 18, 2003 Quote Kallend - if you would reread the initial post which HAS NOT been edited, perhaps you would've realized you made a mistake right off the bat. Well, here is the initial post from this thread: "Hi, I have a friend that wants to switch from a sabre 150 to a stiletto 150" Where in there does it say anything about downsizing? Since when is 150 less than 150? Downsizing is not the issue here. Kindly explain my mistake "right off the bat".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #20 March 18, 2003 PD maintains that the Sabre 2 and the Stiletto in this size are indeed both 150 ft2, but things such as span, aspect ratio, etc. are different. Differences other than pure size may make a canopy seem hotter or faster/smaller. When it comes to Velocity or other manufacturers, I'm not sure how they look at it. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #21 March 19, 2003 QuotePD maintains that the Sabre 2 and the Stiletto in this size are indeed both 150 ft2, but things such as span, aspect ratio, etc. are different. Differences other than pure size may make a canopy seem hotter or faster/smaller. | "Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190!" - John LeBlanc And regardless of how you spin it (pun intended), going from 150 to a 150 is not downsizing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #22 March 19, 2003 Why doesn't someone just lock this thread on the grounds that it's been beat to death. Put it out of its misery. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDemon69 0 #23 March 19, 2003 Hi, I am the guy Lt.Dan was talking about. Yes I want to go stilletto, Because I feel I am ready for a better canopy. I am only going to a higher performance canopy and I understand it loses more alititude in turns. I am not going to fly like a bat out of hell. I have 115 jumps. I see dannyboy doing well here in hawaii and he went from a 210 to a 170stilletto and he is doing fine. I am only changing canopys not downsizing. I know the risks and I think I am gonna buy it. Thanks for everyones concerns. I just turned 18 on Feb 25th and I may be dumb for going to a stilletto but I feel I can handle it. Again thanks for your concern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #24 March 20, 2003 QuoteI am not going to fly like a bat out of hell. Then why bother? Can you flat turn, flare turn and land standing up in a 5 meter circle every time with the canopy you're jumping now? If not, you are not ready for a more aggressive canopy. As for "better", the Stiletto is 10 year old technology. QuoteI see dannyboy doing well here in hawaii and he went from a 210 to a 170stilletto and he is doing fine. And he has how many jumps? Your legs, your life. At 18 you're damn near invincible anyway, so I doubt that anything we say is going to change your mind. Hope you have good medical insurance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #25 March 20, 2003 If you're not pushing the canopy to it's limits, why change? Have that extra safety margin for when the effluence hits the ventilator.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
