Does your DZ have a drug testing policy for Staff members?

[sarge 0]

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The guy had Coke, E/X, and grass in his system...

I seem to have the same recollection, of the Bro who burned in on the pond last summer [June] it was a PR nightmare for Roger. He was making all kinds of statements in the papers defending the dz for months until the final toxicology reports came in. Tragic in a sense, because the facts were (as reported) that the presence of drugs; Extassy and [others] were found in our brothers system.

I don't think I missed anything in the thread? but the guy at Rantoul got snagged by a helicopter, reports were that he had been warned to stay away on at least one prior occasion as he was attempting to video/photograph the flights? I don't even know if he was even a jumper?

Anyway my thoughts on these incidents whether they are accurate or relevant to the references already made, are that the helicopter victim would have appeared to the general public to have been on drugs for his reckless persistence? In the swooping incident, statements made shortly after the accident suggested that the Bro was not skilled/experienced enough to be doing a swoop on a pond of SDCs configuration (steep sides and obstacles).

When drugs come up in relation to some incident it screws up everything. It really shouldn't even be a factor so I understand and respect attempts to improve public image. Dzs don't make it important... incidents do.
.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[SkySlut 0]

Yeah, I remember that one too...so I am not losing my mind. Anywho...I am all for having a good time, but if you are fucked before getting on the plane...I will let you know. If anyone has a problem with telling someone that they should not be jumping should not be jumping themselves. We need to be regulating ourselves...then we dont have to have to drugtest
...if drugtesting doesnt work...then we got the FAA to deal with...think about it.

[kallend 1,623]

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It would suck to test fun jumpers though, IMO.

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Yep, its a fine line you have to walk. I personally feel that if you have other peoples lives in your hands...there should be nothing in your system.

Unless you're the only one on the plane and in the air you have other peoples lives in your hands.
Think about it.

and as has been pointed out time and time again, there are soooo many more common and equally dangerous factors that are not addressed..

[sarcasm]but hey drug testing is the panacea for dz safety, cant have the DZO actually talk to his staff and know them well enough to personally evaluate their performance and safety, of course not, that might require effort..[/sarcasm]

So, to repeat a question you didn't answer previously, what do you think about drug testing of airline pilots? Does it violate their rights? Should the passengers take pot-luck about whether or not the pilot is impaired?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skymedic 0]

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If you want to get high and jump your just a candidate for the next darwin award and the O2 you save will be used by someone else...

except when that person burns in with a tandem student in front of them.....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[kallend 1,623]

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Yeah, I remember that one too...so I am not losing my mind. Anywho...I am all for having a good time, but if you are fucked before getting on the plane...I will let you know. If anyone has a problem with telling someone that they should not be jumping should not be jumping themselves. We need to be regulating ourselves...then we dont have to have to drugtest
...if drugtesting doesnt work...then we got the FAA to deal with...think about it.

The incident 2 years ago involved traces of various substances but the coroner said that it was not enough to cause impairment on the fatal jump. The incident last summer (Passmore) was found to have enough to be impaired, and he was a TM. IMO this is inexcusable.

Caused a lot of uproar in the local press, including an effort from some unit of local government (don't recall which) to get the DZ closed down. We just don't need this shit.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

honestly i dont think it should be required. If the other members of the flight crew cant tell there is a problem then they arent paying close enough attention or perhaps there isnt actually a problem.

but there is also a difference between a public mode of transportation and a recreational activity, so i can concede that there are some situations were stricter monitoring is perhaps warranted. Also, pilots do not have any where near the level of personal contact with others that a TM/JM should have, so an impairement problem would also be easier to hide

since impairment levels are subject to much debate (and the government has no interest in funding or even looking at any study which might contradict its doctrine) it is difficult to seriously discuss any such issues with any real facts. Much less with the levels of prejudice and persecution (as already evident even in this rather civil community) indoctrinated by government propaganda relating to such activities.

as far as the TM & passenger. The responsibility is equally (or perhaps more so) on the DZO and ST&A to be familiar with their employees capabilities and limitations on a daily basis, which would eliminate the need for invasive testing. If they are incapable of making such evaluations then they should not be in the positions of responsibility they hold as there are far more situations that would remain undetected by drug testing (lack of sleep, emotional state, hung over etc..) that could be equally dangerous for their passengers.

Of course then they couldnt use "drug-free" as a marketing ploy, to imply their operation is safer than one that does not.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[betzilla 56]

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If you want to get high and jump your just a candidate for the next darwin award and the O2 you save will be used by someone else...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


except when that person burns in with a tandem student in front of them.....

...or if your stupid, selfish, needless fatality causes enough bad PR for your DZ that it has to close, thus fucking over your fellow jumpers.

[diverdriver 5]

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honestly i dont think it should be required. If the other members of the flight crew cant tell there is a problem then they arent paying close enough attention or perhaps there isnt actually a problem.

If you believe this then you don't understand alchoholism or substance abuse. Part of it is the ability to mask the addiction or impairment. Most times until it is too late (until after the accident). That is why there are three aspects to the drug screening process. 1. Pre-employment screening. If you can't keep from doing substances that are ILLEGAL and follow the laws of the land then you don't work in the transportation industry. Those that say they don't care what people do on their own time are missing a strong safety point. Attitudes towards following laws is important. If you can't follow these laws then what other FARs are you going to break? That's the arguement.

2. Random testing. This is a deterent to make sure the rules are followed about substance use and abuse. We have a 8 hour "bottle to throttle" FAR. However, at my company the rule is 10 hours between consumption of alchohol and reporting for duty (which adds another 45 minutes before flying). Is there a "minute manager" standing by checking on us? Of course not. But the threat of getting a random test usually keeps all in line with the rule.

3. Post accident/incident testing. This is the CYA part. If the person is found with substances in their system they have to go back and find out why they didn't catch it with the other two and why no one discovered their impairment pre-event. The hope is that if you cut your finger and they find a small amount of baned substances that they might prevent a greater catastrophe. Doing a drug screen on body parts from a ball of metal won't prevent that accident. It's for Accident investigation only. But, it might prevent someone else who has has used baned substances from using them again. They might seek help thus preventing another accident of the same type.

I'm sorry, you can not look into someone's eyes and determine (completely) that someone is impaired or not. There are other clues.....un-shaven/un-kept appearance, late for work, unable to "get started". If I see this I have serious questions about their ability to perform. So to those that argue that we should be testing for being hungover or fatigued I say "I already do test". It's called using my brain. I have banned people from my plane before. I'll do it again. It is only one aspect of a whole group of things done to prevent people from flying/jumping while impaired (whether it be from drug use, alchohol, fatigue, bad emotion). I am only one person. We ALL have to take on the responsibility for this issue. And that means we need to support tools that can help give a bigger picture of the employed staff.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Zenister 0]

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honestly i dont think it should be required. If the other members of the flight crew cant tell there is a problem then they arent paying close enough attention or perhaps there isnt actually a problem.

If you believe this then you don't understand alchoholism or substance abuse. Part of it is the ability to mask the addiction or impairment

well i wont get into specifics for a lot of the reasons previously mentioned, but i have never had ANY problem telling when someone was using.edited to add: that i had personal contact with on a daily basis Even when other people didnt believe me, people just dont pay as much attention to the little details as they should, sometimes i think the are willfully ignoring them, or think perhaps its "not thier problem" and so dont get involved.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[eeneR 1]

I am kind of curious...Um When did it become a legal right to take drugs? All this debate about where it is legal or not to test since when was it our right to consume illegal substances like MJ or X?

I understand there are the chances of having a false positive, I have had to drug test for every job i have ever had. Never once did I worry.

The one thing that has to be in place is policy that states if you have the right to protest the results if you feel they are wrong. You should have to retake right then and there, no time for the Golden Seal or Magic tea or powders. This would help resolve the issue of the people who are clean losing a job for no reason.

I personally know 2 people who lost there jobs for smoking dope, one being my ex-husband (part of why he is my ex) They deserved to loose their jobs, they did not abide by written company policy and LAW!!!! Both were CDL Licensed 18 wheel semi-truck drivers.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[diverdriver 5]

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well i wont get into specifics for a lot of the reasons previously mentioned, but i have never had ANY problem telling when someone was using. Even when other people didnt believe me, people just dont pay as much attention to the little details as they should, sometimes i think the are willfully ignoring them, or think perhaps its "not thier problem" and so dont get involved.

I agree very much with this. I too believe many are not keeping their eyes open. On a number of subjects. Not just this one.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[mikeat10500 9]

Hi Chris
First of all, I would like to say that I believe that
DZO's and A/C operators/owners have the right to
use any strategy to protect their business including
mandatory AAD use or drug testing. It is their money!
But as far as safety goes...the safest instructor/skydiver I've ever had the privilege of jumping with was a very bad alcoholic. So bad...they
had to kick him off our drop zone. On the ground, you couldn't take your eyes off this guy or he would be in trouble. In the air or A/C this guy was a machine. Flawless in operation.

I know you read the NTSB reports. Years ago pilots
were known to be a bit on the wild side. Things have
changed in the name of safety. Now I think alcohol and drugs are very rarely found to be a factor with
pilots.

And yet it seems on almost every account, when airplanes crash the report reads PILOT ERROR,some of this,some of that, pilot error, etc, and finally pilot error. And every time a jumper burns in we figure out
what he/she should have done to save their lives"pilot error".

My point is there may not be a direct relationship between substance use or even abuse and...safety.
Now I'm not saying you should be hammered the next time you show up for work!

But I think if you fly jumpers...loose the shirt,shoes
and wristwatch...get a bandana and act crazy man.
Watch Fandango...become Truman Sparks.
It's more fun that way.
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[diverdriver 5]

I'll pose a question. Do you feel that we should stop using all AADs since they don't prevent all skydiving deaths? I mean, look at the fatality reports. We all know a Cypres doesn't prevent hook turn fatalities so we just shouldn't use them? This is sarcasm, as you figured, but I feel that drug screening is only a tool. And yes, the airline industry has changed from what it once was. Drug testing won't prevent all pilot error accidents. The most complex machinery on any flight deck IS the PIC. To say that drug testing will prevent all pilot error accidents doesn't cover it. It is only one tool in a whole group of things done for safety. Others are every 6 months I have to go fly in "the box" and go through emergency procedures. I mean come on! I just proved myself 6 months ago and I haven't crashed since then. Why you testing me again?!! [again, in sarcasm]

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[skymedic 0]

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But I think if you fly jumpers...loose the shirt,shoes
and wristwatch...get a bandana and act crazy man.
Watch Fandango...become Truman Sparks.
It's more fun that way.
...mike

and kiss your ticket good bye......

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[scl 0]

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The responsibility is equally (or perhaps more so) on the DZO and ST&A to be familiar with their employees capabilities and limitations on a daily basis, which would eliminate the need for invasive testing.

The fact that a DZO is testing does not preclude any of these other safety measures. DZOs are all intelligent hardworking dudes, and using a test only shows that they know they are not qualified to determine drug use, and that they are aware that they might not be the best judge of someone's potential impairment. Are you suggesting that each TM check in with the DZO before work every day and convince him verbally of their competency? Or that the DZO go around sniffing everyone's breath, shining a light in everyone's pupils, and asking everyone to walk a line? I think if the DZO insisted on knowing the details of everyone's life every single day, there would be a lot more uproar about "invasion of privacy," and besides, if these types of "precautions" still failed, and a student went in, the DZO would have it on his shoulders that he didn't "catch" that one, when in reality, he can't be expected to.

[mikeat10500 9]

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But I think if you fly jumpers...loose the shirt,shoes
and wristwatch...get a bandana and act crazy man.
Watch Fandango...become Truman Sparks.
It's more fun that way.
...mike

and kiss your ticket good bye......

There is no law that says " you can't act crazy"
...is there?
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Zenister 0]

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*** Are you suggesting that each TM check in with the DZO before work every day and convince him verbally of their competency?

absolutely.

otherwise how do you know your TM didnt stay up all night "wrasslin" with another hottie skydiver they just met and came to work on say a 1/2 hours sleep? How do you know he/she isnt going thru some major personal issues that might have rendered them emotionally unsuitable(ie. possibility suicidal) to jump that day? how do you know that the fact that they have recently quit smoking and the nicotine withdraw is so bad that day they are shaking so much they are having trouble keeping their coffee in the cup?

these are just a few (admittedly somewhat exaggerated ) examples of the kinds of things that could easily create a dangerous situation, and if the DZO/ ST&A isnt capable of making that determination thru normal interpersonal contact with their employees (that should be part of their daily responsibilities) then do you really think they have the judgment to hold the positions they do??

but then its far easier to put the responsibility on a third party and pretend it makes everyone safer at the expense of personal freedom, privacy and trust.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mikeat10500 9]

Hi Chris
I have no problem with the monitoring of substance
use/abuse. But I think 8 hours bottle to throttle is
sufficient time for most. So small traces of whatever is
your blood is no cause for concern" safety wise".
Lets say you are a prudent man and only have 2 beer the night before but were hanging out with the
bad crowd when they were smoking and joking.
The next day you could fail a pee test and they will
for sure!
I just don't see the need for zero tolerance.

AAD's...how do you feel about flying by wire...like Air Bus...how much control do you like to give up?
When I jump, I'm the PIC and I open the parachutes around here!

Turn off TCAS and fly....feel the wind...be the wind.
...crazy mike
=================================
Dropzone.com and the entire aviation community in
no way support any comments made be mike w.
====================================

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[diverdriver 5]

Actually I fly a Canadair Regional Jet which is flown all by hydraulics. I lose the hydraulics I lose the aircraft. There is no mechanical reversionary. So, Airbus or not, we're already doing it. It's all about interface. Can the man/machine interface be done consistently and safely? The answer is yes. The Airbus 320/319 is a fine aircraft. It has it's own quirks but every aircraft has them. People just like to focus on the whole computer fly by wire thing because it's something they don't understand so it's "voodoo". Which is what I believe is going on with this whole drug testing issue. You see people who are actively involved with jobs requiring pee testing. You don't hear too much uproar from them do you? Why? Because it's something that we live with and it's not that big of a deal. I think people have worked themselves into such a frenzy they won't be able to see the truth of the program. It is possible to drink so much before the 8 hour rule that when you show for duty you can still be illegal to fly. The limit is .04. We've had several pilots busted in the past year and a half for having an alchohol level higher than allowed. And if I'm with a crowd that is doing drugs I leave. I had MJ smoke intentionally blown in my face by some free flier at Skydive America Palm Beach when I was there. WTF is that?!!! They new I was leaving skydiving for the airlines and someone thought it funny that they do this. So I did leave and got a hotel room off the airport. Thanks for the extra cost jurk-nut! So yes, other people's drug use does effect me.

We've already determined that a private company has the right to institute a program like this. So why make a big production of it if you don't like it and want to leave? The company still has the right to do it. The ACLU has failed to overturn drug testing in thousands of companies so I suspect that the broad consensus through the public is that it is accepted. You may disagree that drug screening actually improves safety but there are many more that believe it does. It's a relatively new concept in the world of skydiving so I think that's why people are a bit freaked and irritated. Skydiving was supposed to be our escape from the rules of the rest of our life. But now, it's creeping into our little corner of the world. And that scares people. By nature skydivers don't like being told what to do. How many times have you heard that you are crazy just for jumping out of planes? You don't think you are crazy. Seems normal to you now. So when someone starts telling you there are more rules on what you can do people seem to automaticaly disagree with it because it is a new rule.

Look when you apply for a job you have to expose yourself. You must prove your background. You may have to submit to written tests. I did. And I had already passed the FAA tests for my licenses. Isn't that an ivasion of the privacy of my mind? I've already taken the test so you should just trust my word that I know what I'm doing. Right? Well, it doesn't work that way. Because some instructors have proven they can't act adult and keep from doing ILLEGAL drugs then we need to institute new rules to prevent such an occurance again. It only takes a few to spoil it for the rest of the group. And the blood has already been spilled. What are the DZOs left with? The mess. That's what. The industry failed to self-police so now it will be done for them. I can't blame any DZO for testing staff. The mess that is left afterwards sucks. And NO ONE has the civil liberty to shit in my home. I'm sorry. But what you do in your "private time" DOES effect me and others.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[mikeat10500 9]

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Actually I fly a Canadair Regional Jet which is flown all by hydraulics. I lose the hydraulics I lose the aircraft. There is no mechanical reversionary. So, Airbus or not, we're already doing it. It's all about interface. Can the man/machine interface be done consistently and safely? The answer is yes. The Airbus 320/319 is a fine aircraft. It has it's own quirks but every aircraft has them.

I was referring to A/C being able to over-ride pilot
input like AAD's can fire without jumper consent.

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It is possible to drink so much before the 8 hour rule that when you show for duty you can still be illegal to fly. The limit is .04. We've had several pilots busted in the past year and a half for having an alchohol level higher than allowed.

Thats fair enough...they failed and mouth wash can't get you to .04
But that is not zero tolerance is it.

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And if I'm with a crowd that is doing drugs I leave. I had MJ smoke intentionally blown in my face by some free flier...

That is not funny or cool in any way. I respect pilots and their skills and would do nothing to cause them grief.
Nor do I believe the use of restricted substances should be cause for anyone to have to leave the party. We have law enforcement, doctors, pilots, military,etc that enjoy this sport and our company so if need be leave the campfire for 10 mins.

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We've already determined that a private company has the right to institute a program like this. So why make a big production of it if you don't like it and want to leave? The company still has the right to do it. The ACLU has failed to overturn drug testing in thousands of companies so I suspect that the broad consensus through the public is that it is accepted. You may disagree that drug screening actually improves safety but there are many more that believe it does.

But why do they believe it...is there even any soft
flimsy evidence?

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It's a relatively new concept in the world of skydiving so I think that's why people are a bit freaked and irritated. Skydiving was supposed to be our escape from the rules of the rest of our life. But now, it's creeping into our little corner of the world. And that scares people. By nature skydivers don't like being told what to do. How many times have you heard that you are crazy just for jumping out of planes? You don't think you are crazy. Seems normal to you now. So when someone starts telling you there are more rules on what you can do people seem to automaticaly disagree with it because it is a new rule.

Exactly...thats it!

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But what you do in your "private time" DOES effect me and others.

Than loose the shirt,shoes and wristwatch and party
with me...that way you can keep a eye on me...I am wild party!!!
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[AndyMan 7]

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What would constitute a "percieved" drug problem on a DZ, anyway???

I used the term perceived because I have never seen any drug activity at this dropzone. Apart from the incident last year, I haven't heard of anyone jumping stoned, nor pilots flying while intoxicated, or anything that sets off alarm bells. I've only heard stories that I won't repeat because most stories are false or at least exagerated. In all my visits there I have never once felt my safety in danger.

My only objection is the manner in which one email message framed the annoucement in comments that suggested other DZ's had problems. Skydive Chicago is good enough they can stand on their own without slamming the competetion.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SkySlut 0]

ripping in the competition about this issue is a poor excuse for what is really at hand here. this has nothing to do with SDC, it has to do with the sport as a whole.