The Bladder Cops Question

[flyangel2 2]

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Does the toxicology report show when the drug was taken? Does it prove hands down that he/she was under the influence at the time of the accident.

Yes, to both questions.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but you can get a false positive depending on when the blood is drawn from a person on a fatality. I'm not in the career that does this testing, but I was involved with a fatality that showed a false positive when I know for a fact that the person wasn't doing any kind of drugs. The coroner explained to me that drug testing on a deceased person is very difficult.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[skymedic 0]

Hence the reason it takes several months usualy to get toxicology reports back....usualy they dont draw blood only...they also take tissue. usualy from the liver, as that is where all the nasty shit that people ingest usualy get's disposed of....they also take tissues from other area's of the body also. brain being one of them....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[nightjumps 1]

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but I was involved with a fatality that showed a false positive when I know for a fact that the person wasn't doing any kind of drugs.

Affirmation of the test's reliability exists in your comment... They were able to recognize it as a "False Positive."

Folks, I'm going to step out of the peripheral discussions. There is validity to both sides of the argument. However, we must recognize that we are "a self-regulating" industry. As such, we recognize there is a responsibility as staff or Instructors to ensure students are not at risk.

I think I'd like to wait to hear from Djan regarding her thoughts on what she is "for" in terms of presenting a solution in her leadership role with the USPA.

Final thought... If everyone acted responsibly, we wouldn't be here. I too, am resistant to subrogating our constitutional rights. It would be great if Instructors and/or Staff knew they could "Time Out" for any undisclosed reason (emotional, too much last night, etc.) without jeopardy from DZO's. I don't know if that's feasible. If we don't charge headlong into this, we're going to find it snowballing.

So, the question is; What are "we" and the leadership of this "self-regulating" industry willing to do to ensure that Staff and Instructors have the opportunity to act responsibly. Because, if they don't take that opportunity, then it will be "imposed" responsibility and encroaching on the everyone's Freedom of Choice.

We should be defining possible solutions, not stepping away in defiance or engaging in circular argument.

...Bigun

[scl 0]

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Now, my friend goes to the other web sites of the DZs in the state, and noticed that nothing about being drug free was mentioned on their web sites.

If a DZ posts on their website that they are "the safest place to jump" or a "a real family atmposphere" or "the best fun in the sky" or any other positive claim, would we attack them for bashing other DZs by insinuation? If you're taking extra steps (maybe not foolproof ones, but all you can do) to make your business even a tiny bit more safe, why not advertise it? There are DZs who advertise that all their riggers are FAA-certified--not because they're trying to insinuate that others' aren't, but because many whuffos won't know this, and it gives them a little more confidence about making that first jump. We're all in the same business here, and what hurts or helps one DZ hurts or helps us all. A bad lawsuit against one skydiving operation hurts the image of the entire industry--by one DZO implementing drug testing, he is probably just trying to keep his DZ from being the next one to cause us all bad press.

[skr 1]

Bladder Cops #2 Mon 2003-4-7
--------------- ------------

Welp, I am often surprised by the response, or sometimes total
lack of it, when I post one of these things.

Friday morning DJan called me and told me she had resigned from
Mile Hi, and why. I thought about it for a couple days and posted
something on Saturday night.

Now it's Monday night and close to 1,000 people have looked at
3 separate threads on dropzone.com, looks like about 30 responses
on rec.skydiving, and the local skydiver mailing list has a bunch
of discussion.

And judging by the responses, which are too much to assimilate
in a short time, I'm not nearly as clear a writer as I thought
I was.


I thought I said two things:

- Another DZO has announced that he is starting drug testing

- He says he is doing it for safety reasons

- I think the real reasons DZOs do this are:

- Advertising
- Competing with the neighboring drop zones
- Guarding against whuffo juries

and

- Drug testing is an example of the trend toward intrusion
into people's private lives and the erosion of civil liberties

- I think that trend sucks.


The first point that came up on dropzone.com was from Wendy / wmw999

> Oh my. Is that for staff, or for everyone?

Ville Huttu-Hiltunen / BMFin pointed out

> During boogies that are ran by our club, everyone that
> are manifesting have to take a breathalizer test on the
> first two loads..

Ha! :-) :-)

I remember Finland, and an amazing amount of Russian vodka, but
breathalizer tests on the morning after get more to the point.
There is good reason to think people will be jumping impaired,
and it tests for it in the actual moment.


Maybe if a drop zone required a drug test from everyone,
staff, jumpers, first jump students and tandems, and then
didn't even advertise it, I would believe they might be
doing it for safety, but I think I would believe more that
they were doing it for protection against whuffo juries.

Boy, I can hear the outcry over that, and I haven't even
posted this yet. But by their own logic, if this is for
safety, and you can't tell whether someone is impaired
without a drug test, how can you tell that a student or
a tandem isn't impaired if they don't have a drug test?



So, when DZOs claim they're doing drug testing for safety,
I just don't believe them. When they say they're doing it
for advertising and competition and whuffo juries, I do
believe them.


And I do think about how we had something special in America
once, and a lot of it is still left, but so many people
seem so willing and eager to just toss it away, like it
isn't precious, that it's really painful.

I've had feelings the last year or two that I've never had
before, like, I'm glad I'm an old fart, and probably won't
live to see what I see coming.

----

Tuesday 2003-4-8 I ran out of steam last night.

Now there's about 70 posts on rec.skydiving, a fourth thread
on dropzone.com, more posts on the local skydiving mailing list,
including some info on how to pass a drug test from some helpful
soul :-) :-)


Here's what I think about drugs (in a very small nutshell).

People, and even other mammals, have been altering their
state with all kinds of techniques for a really long time.
Delving into states of being is part of what we do and are.

Through ignorance, lack of better techniques, lack of training
in life skills and a bunch of other reasons, people use
drugs for social acceptance, for coping with life, for
escaping from life, for making money and so on.

The goals, the motives, are pretty understandable, but the
technique is not a good one, and if they persist for those
kinds of reasons, life in the long haul will get worse.

I see this as a health and education issue.


If I wanted to make the situation worse I would make drugs
illegal and call it a war.

We could get a couple million people into prison, funnel
*huge* amounts of money into the wrong hands, stigmatize
it and make it hard to get help and education, we could
knock down doors, destroy respect for law and law enforcement,
we could get people used to being watched, and tested ...

Sounds like a real, self sustaining, growth opportunity
business, *and* we can have the smoke screen appearance
of doing something about it.


I think this drug war drug test approach is tackling
symptoms and making it worse, and a health and education
approach, while much harder to do, would address root
causes and make it better.

----

So when people ask whether I'm in favor of testing pilots
and others in really critical positions I would have to
say no, I'm not in favor of this drug war drug test approach.

I'm in favor of making the effort to actually do something
about the root causes, and have people in those positions
stay clean and unimpaired while on the job because that's
how it's done and they have high standards and want the
acceptance of their peers.


I accept that that's probably not going to happen, and
the drug war drug test approach will be around for a
long time.

But acceptance doesn't mean I agree with it, or like it,
or am in favor of it. It just means that I accept that
it's true.

----

I have thought this stuff for a pretty long time, but
the effort to write it out is really helping me clarify
it to myself, and I would like to thank everybody for
bringing up all the other viewpoints to think about.

I need to take a break for other stuff.

I saw some other points to respond to, and if I can
think what to say I'll be back.

Thanks everybody.

Skr

[skymedic 0]

Do you think drug use is a victemless crime?

have you ever seen what pablo did to people in columbia...people who use drugs....if it comes from certain sources(which most of it does)...help this type of terrorism...the war on drugs is a needed war...I often see the end result of it in the patients I care for on a regular basis...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[billvon 2,473]

>Do you think drug use is a victemless crime?

As much as oil use is a victimless crime. Both oil and drug money are often used for bad things. Drug dealers kill people to protect their sources and their income, and oil money supports a huge amount of terrorism throughout the world.

By the same token, both oil and drug money are often used for _good_ - tens of thousands of people are employed by the drug war in the US, and cheap oil makes private cars, air travel, even skydiving possible. And of course there's legal drug money (alcohol and tobacco) that has the same sort of effect. Since it's legal, it tends to support crime less, but that's because it's legal, not because alcohol or tobacco is 'good.'

To me, tobacco and marijuana are the least of the 'evil drugs.' Cigarettes kill you pretty effectively in the long run, but it's your life. Alcohol comes next; it kills an awful lot of people, both through direct and indirect action - and often that indirect action kills others. Cocaine, ecstacy, speed etc are much worse than alcohol.

>I often see the end result of it in the patients I care for on a regular
basis...

While Amy was on trauma rotation, she used to dread bar closing times. Half an hour later the first victims of excessive alcohol use would show up. Drugs are indeed a serious problem in the US, but I don't think the illegal ones create most of the problems.

[wmw999 2,172]

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While Amy was on trauma rotation, she used to dread bar closing times. Half an hour later the first victims of excessive alcohol use would show up. Drugs are indeed a serious problem in the US, but I don't think the illegal ones create most of the problems.

I spent a summer as an all-night waitress in college. We called that "zoo hour." Definitely worst on Friday and Saturday nights. I was glad to be safe in my little white waitress suit.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

For what's it's worth, here is my .02:

First, I am not against random, or 100%, drug screening for Instructors. I think a business has the right to require passing a drug screening as a prerequisite for hire and either randomly, periodically, or on an as-needed basis thereafter. The business also has the responsibility of paying for the tests, paying for a second test or more accurate second test in the event of a positive result, if the employee or in this case, independent contractor requests it. On the flip side of the coin, I think a person has the right to not take the test and either not accept the job or quit, as applicable. No stigmatism should follow that person, for they are standing up for what they believe in, i.e., "they won't take the test because they know they won't pass", and I respect that. If they feel it is an invasion of privacy, OK by me. That belief will remove some jobs/careers not a possible choice because they require drug screening.

Second, jobs that generally require drug testing require it because the person being tested holds a position of responsibility, in this case, student's lives. These jobs generally have higher pay to attract persons that can qualify for the responsibility and remain drug-free.

Third, I have worked at three jobs that required a drug test. I wanted the job, so I took the tests. One was the U.S. Army, where I worked on Attack Helicopters (important that I be sharp and not miss anything), another was working for a grocery store (kinda hard to make a mistake that will injure or take someone's life there), and as a Safety Diver for NASA at the Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory (had to be very sharp, let one astronaut die on your watch………..). I passed all of them. My new career, as a State Police Officer, I am sure will require drug testing. Imagine what would happen to the state if I was involved in a fatal accident or shooting and they found illegal substances in my body.

Fourth, I "self-regulate". I have never done any illegal drugs of any kind, I don't even like Aspirin, and I don't drink much. In 2 years my girlfriend has seen me drunk once. I can't remember the last beer I had. I don't think I have had one this year. I haven't had a drink of hard liquor in years. If I were to do some rigging work, I wouldn't even have a sip of beer, same thing for jumping, whether I am fun jumping or Instructing doesn't matter. I enforce a self-imposed zero-tolerance policy for myself.

Fifth, drugs of any kind can impair. The definition of a drug is 'a chemical substance used to alter the state of the body or the mind'. I feel that skydiving Instructors should be at 100% when teaching. Drug testing is a deterrent to drug use. Want to use drugs? Don't Instruct. A drug test doesn't test for alcohol, lack of sleep, etc. I believe a drug test should be used in conjunction with proper supervision. If an Instructor is exhibiting signs of being impaired, the Chief Instructor, DZO, or S & TA, should take them aside, privately, and discuss what they have observed and get the Instructor's explanation. Based on the observations and the explanation, the next step would be decided. If I was ever the Instructor in this situation, I would request a drug test, to remove any doubt about the questions of illegal drugs. A police officer friend of mine requests that any complaints against him be fully investigated. He does not want, "The officer in question has 13 complaints against him, pending investigation.", on his record. He would much rather prefer "The officer had 13 complaints against him. Investigations have cleared him of any misconduct for all of them."

Hook

[dayle 0]

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Do you think drug use is a victemless crime?

have you ever seen what pablo did to people in columbia...people who use drugs....if it comes from certain sources(which most of it does)...help this type of terrorism...the war on drugs is a needed war...I often see the end result of it in the patients I care for on a regular basis...

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how long drugs have been around and used?? It wasn't until it became criminal that we had these serious crime problems. Why, because it's just like prohibition of alcohol. By making it illegal you create a market, which will be filled.

The reason there is so much violence in the "Drug Trade" is if someone rips you off, you can't go to the local cop to get your money or property back so "people" have to take matters into their own hands.

That applies to Pablo aswell as your local guy on the street

Sorry if this is a little off topic.

Dayle

[skydyvr 0]

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Unfortunately for me...I do not see it the same way...I have lost some respect for her, even with all of her past accomplishments.

While nobody here is arguing against the employer's right to screen for drugs, how can you lose respect for anyone who makes decisions based on principal and inner conviction? Most people submit to the unpleasant, invasive piss test for the sake of a job, despite feelings of violation.

I submitted to drug screening 5 years ago for the job I have now, and to this day the debate on whether I did the right thing rages on in my thoughts!

I have tremendous respect for Djan or anyone else with the courage to choose personal integrity over a job.

. . =(_8^(1)

[mikeat10500 10]

Billvon

I see the media has not brain washed every body.
Your eyes are wide open!
...mike

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>Do you think drug use is a victemless crime?
(snip)
As much as oil use is a victimless crime. Both oil and drug money are often used for bad things. Drug dealers kill people to protect their sources and their income, and oil money supports a huge amount of terrorism throughout the world.
.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[mustard 0]

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I have tremendous respect for Djan or anyone else with the courage to choose personal integrity over a job.

Thanks for that! However, I have to say that if I had known, or even had a clue, that this issue would end up being the mess that it's become, I'm not sure I wouldn't have rather stayed anonymous and simply submitted.

Bigun (somewhere around these threads) asked me to state, as a public figure, what I *do* stand for. It's become clear to me that I've had a very sheltered life as a skydiver up to this point because of having had the same job for 23 years and up until now not been asked to prove that I am not guilty.

But, now that it's happened, I believe that there's a dichotomy between those who are used to being drug tested and those (like me) who are not. I find it personally offensive -- but it's not my livelihood, I have a real job that pays the bills, and I skydive and teach students as a hobby. A very rewarding one, but still not my livelihood. And I have other places where I can teach students.

If I owned a DZ or was the manager at one, I think I might do just what Mile Hi is doing, given today's political climate. But I can also state that I don't want to submit to drug testing and should be allowed to object and not just submit to something I find offensive. It's my right, as Hook stated. Why am I now being persecuted for that stand? That's what I don't understand. What's happening here?

This firestorm is finally beginning to die down. Hopefully we can all get together and make a jump and smile at each other in freefall. That's why I do this, because my fellow skydivers are the best -- but we come from such diverse background that I suspect we need something to bring us together in a common goal, as Sangiro has done here with DZ.com. Let's keep on with that spirit and not attack each other for diverse viewpoints.

Whaddya say?

***
DJan

[fusedog 0]

WE DON'T DRUG TEST and there's no doubt in my military mind (relative, that may well be) -- we're the CLEANEST, SOBEREST dropzone in COLORADO --

if you're lookin' for work -- we're lookin' for a FEW GOOD MEN and WOMEN to come aboard...

blue skies,
duey
SKYDIVE THE ROCKIES!

also, against my apolitcal nature -- i must say, conquering armies may be a fine example of how not to do it -- but liberating an already conquered people (read: IRAQ 2003) doesn't support your argument...imho.

peace
duey

i know a little 'bout it...

[skymedic 0]

Djan,

this is where it comes down to everyone has opposing opinions. No one's opinion is any more right than the other's. I respect your choice, but having been a person who has been subjected to peeing ina bottle for the last 12 years of my career while treating patients and driving 750,000 dollar fire trucks, I always wonder when people who don't submit, if they have something to hide. now I dont know you...but that is my honest feeling when people I do know don't submit. It may be some people's opinion that I am wrong on this. but this is what I feel.

Now on to the skydiving bit...I'd love it...see ya at WFFC...I hope

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[WFFC 1]

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This firestorm is finally beginning to die down. Hopefully we can all get together and make a jump and smile at each other in freefall...

Ummm...Balloon and Helo jumps on Saturday and Sunday. You at least need to come out and give me a hug bye...