kenneth21441 0 #1 September 22, 2003 Hello all, I just wanted to post this to let everyone know that if they are going to jump... Don't ASSUME.... that you are asking the correct person.. if you are jumping new equipment.. or equipment that you had never seen before... The story goes like this.. A new skydiver goes to another DZ in another state to jump.... He is just given the rig and here you go... he ask wheres the rip cord as he was trained on the student sweathog with the rip cord around the hip area... He asked the manifester where is the rip cord and that person just says pull that string and thats it.... so he jumps and pulls that string...... nothing.,.....nothing............at 1500 feet AGL.... he goes to pull the reserve... and lets go of that string thing that he was holding for the past 10 sec. then wamm.. it opens and now he has his main and lands off the DZ...... One of the jumpers who was going to the DZ saw him and picked him up and the jumper said that he lost his ripcord... and the driver said no you have everything............ (of course this string was a pilot chute).. Now you know the story so please dont ever assume...... Make a ASS of U and ME..... if you dont know please ask a instructor, rigger,.... just don't assume.... and ask anyone...... The jumper then came back to our DZ with this story and that sort of makes us all sick to think that this guy would let himself get caught like this......... He will now ask if he does not know.... and I hope that this will assist everyone to think about this.... thank you, Ken....Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #2 September 22, 2003 I understand that as a skydiver you should take all responsibility on yourself and never expect to place the blame for your mistakes on someone else. That said, assuming (heh) your story is worded correctly, I think the manifester here did a pretty shitty thing. If someone asks "where is the rip cord?", then I would guess he hasn't jumped hand deploy, and unless the manifester himself was a non-jumper or low-time jumper too (in which case he should not have attempted to answer the question!) he should have done more than simply pointing at a "string." Hell, regardless of how much experience the manifester has (unless he IS an instructor), if a jumper is showing he doesn't understand fundamental things about the gear he is renting (deployment being the MOST fundamental task in skydiving), he should refer that jumper to an instructor before giving him the rig. My opinion at least... I dunno, something about this story seems lacking to me... a guy who's never jumped hand deploy I wouldn't think would have veyr many jumps at all, and another DZ in another state I would HOPE would do a more thorough check of such a a low time jumper before just handing him a rig. And to the guy's credit, he didn't just assume blindly, he DID ask. Unfortunately he just didn't ask the right person, and he got a shitty answer. I'm sure he learned from that.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #3 September 22, 2003 Every jumper off student status is responsible for his jump, so if he wasn't perfectly sure on how his gear operates, why did he jump in the first place? The answer he got was shitty, but if he had thoroughly checked his gear for functionality, he _should_ have seen that it wasn't a ripcord. Checking your gear (rented or own) before a jump includes a pin check, on a ripcord gear a ripcord check. And if he simply believed in the "just pull that string" instead of someone explaining the gears function, it is his own fault imho. If in doubt, you don't ask the manifest for instruction, you ask an instructor. And hell, you ask as long until you know how your gear works before you jump from a plane. Also i'm wondering if the different deployment methods aren't taught (in theory, no practice) to the students? (Wondering because i was)The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #4 September 22, 2003 QuoteEvery jumper off student status is responsible for his jump, so if he wasn't perfectly sure on how his gear operates, why did he jump in the first place? I'm gonna have to agree with that. Getting in a plane when you don't understand the gear is not the fault of the manifestor. Perhaps the manifestor could've been more friendly, but the jumper is ultimately responsible for his own decisions. He chose to get on the plane with gear he didn't understand. I've been to DZ's where the people working manifest weren't jumpers, they shouldn't be expected to explain how gear works. The jumper should've sought out an instructor, or asked the manifestor to introduce him to an instructor. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #5 September 22, 2003 I'm curious about something, how common is a rip cord deploy nowadays. Let me be more specific, how common is it to teach students on something other than Hand Deploy BOC nowadays?I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #6 September 22, 2003 QuoteEvery jumper off student status is responsible for his jump, so if he wasn't perfectly sure on how his gear operates, why did he jump in the first place? Yeh yeh yeh, I totally agree. :) Which is why I prefaced my post with... QuoteI understand that as a skydiver you should take all responsibility on yourself and never expect to place the blame for your mistakes on someone else. It just annoys me, in skydiving AND in other areas of life, when people who aren't qualified to give advice attempt to do it. OBVIOUSLY the jumper has a huge responsibility to himself to make sure he knows 100% how his gear works no matter what anyone tells him... and the manifester is NOT responsible even 1% for the guy's near-incident. I was just saying on an ethical note (disregarding the whole skydiving thing) I hate it when people try to explain something they're not qualified to. And it actually would have been very beneficial for this jumper if he had the same pet peeve as me! Then he wouldn't have accepted such an incomplete explanation...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #7 September 22, 2003 This happened to me. A woman showed up to jump. She had about 30 jumps and an A-license; she'd learned in Germany then come to the US to make some jumps and get the A. She filled out the waiver. She hadn't jumped there before so I gave her a briefing. Showed her the DZ picture, told her about spotting, the mountains, and where the rental gear was. Showed her how to choose a rig; made sure she was familiar with a two-handled system. Let her do her thing and manifest. As she was walking out I saw her and offered to give her a gear check. "You know you have a throwout, right?" She said yes. We talked about the kind of jump she would do; I recommended some practice touches etc. She jumped, pulled, and hung on to the "ripcord." Her main didn't open, so at 2000 feet she went straight for her reserve. She pulled the handle just as her main opened. She then cut away the main and landed safely under the reserve. When I asked her about it later, she said she had never actually _used_ a throwout, but had read about it in the SIM - and that version of the SIM never explicitly says that you have to let go of the handle. She also noted that the SIM said you should go straight for your reserve if you have a total, which is what she assumed she had. I had never considered that someone would want to jump a throwout who didn't know how to use one, or had only read about how to do it. Live and learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #8 September 22, 2003 I guess I'd make someone with 30 jumps lie on the ground or creeper and show me how to use a throw out since it only takes 20 seconds to repack. Strange though. Lucky for her eh?? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #9 September 22, 2003 QuoteI'm curious about something, how common is a rip cord deploy nowadays. Let me be more specific, how common is it to teach students on something other than Hand Deploy BOC nowadays? In the experienced-jumper world ripcord use is not very common, but it does exist. But there are still lots of student training environments that use them. The theory is that they are a remote activation device, so if the student freezes up and holds onto the handle they still get a canopy over their head. And it costs money to retrofit gear. When we got rid of ripcords years ago, there was a very heated discussion among the AFF/Is about how many students were going to freeze up and how the Instructor was going to get the p/c out of their hand, etc. As it turned out, with proper ground training, it just isn't a big deal. Plus, if you've never jumped a ripcord, you have no predisposition to hold onto the handle...you've just always been taught (since day one if you're using Sigmas to do tandems with) to throw away the handle. Works just fine for us! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #10 September 22, 2003 Was he licensed? I can't even imagine an unlicensed jumper showing up where I jump, getting a rental rig, and getting on the plane without being thoroughly "interrogated" by an instructor. Ok, so nobody told him about the rig. Did anyone show him an aerial shot of the DZ? Talk about the landing pattern? The beer line? Don't get me wrong, this sounds like a heck of a candidate for the stupidest student thread (assuming he's a student). If he's got an A license, he should at least know what a throwout is even if he's never used one. But the DZ is responsible too. They don't want anyone getting killed. That's just not good for business. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #11 September 22, 2003 To answer two questions which came up: I was doing my AFF on a ripcord system 4 yrs ago. Let go of the handle on the first two jumps, 2 cases of beer+two replacement parts. I later received a Hand-deploy BRIEFING before being allowed to jump the hand-deploy gear there. On another DZ i used to jump recently ripcords were standard on student gear. I recently did my first jump on a pullout and before jumping it got the instructions from the owner of the gear on how to pull and pack it. Then did a few trials having him check and all was fine.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #12 September 22, 2003 Thats not that bad, I know a jumper who once grabbed the wrong rig, and ended up under a tiny Velocity. Maybe he should have asked. (just playing with you) Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #13 September 23, 2003 God knows, with what comes out of my mouth here lately I should just be quiet However, would it be too rough to assume, that anyone with less than a c license, newly jumping at a DZ, be required to show proficiency with the rental equipment prior to jumping it? Just the fact that they are still renting should be a signal to the DZ that they may not be proficient on that particular equipment? should it? I mean, I could be way off base... Beyond that, I'm not sure how far it should go, however, as a student (12 jumps) I can't even believe, someone would strap on a rig, get in a plane and jump out of it, without having a very good understanding of how the deployment system works.... That's just someone waitin to kill theirselves, isn't it? I went to our rigger the other day, (aff level 3 jump, my first 7 jumps were static line years ago) and began learning how to pack, only spent a few minutes, was told that most students don't even start askin about it till they've made x amount of jumps.... Doesn't everyone want to know EXACTLY what they are carrying around on their shoulders? This post just scares the shit out of me. I live, breathe and eat this stuff, primarily because I decided if I'm going to do something that is this dangerous, then I wouldn't , half ass it. I'm not jumping cuz I wanna die, I'm jumping cuz I wanna live.... damn that is just too scary for words, I'm so glad that the people in question lived (hope they are still alive). I also hope they kick up their "need to know" factor and start getting very serious about this sport, before they aren't around anymore. jjfIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #14 September 23, 2003 Thanks for the answer Ryan. I remember when I was going thru AFF that there was still a "transition to hand deploy" requirement listed and I had wondered about it.I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #15 September 23, 2003 The packing thing is something really new to me over here, too. I just recently came to Canada from Europe, did my AFF and licence and most jumps in Germany. I had to learn to pack my own gear after AFF level 3. It had to be checked, of course, and took me hours in the beginning. BUT ever since then i've packed my own rig, no mals yet (knock on wood). When i read of people here and met someone at a dropzone with more than 40 jumps, licensed but not having packed ONCE, i start wondering what people's attitudes to this sport are. Jumpers who don't pack up their own rig earn less respect from me, if they are just too lazy to pack it. I DON'T want to put packers out of a job and i don't disrespect someone who was jumping all day and leaves the last PJ to the packer, had a hard opening and doesn't feel bad or whatever. But if someone always has someone else packing the rig, it seems to me (JMHO!), that they deny a part of their safety responsibility, or even worse, don't even see it. This does not apply to all the special conditions, like Tandems, backuprigs etc at a busy DZ. Just my two ¢The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #16 September 23, 2003 Rigging65, You hit the nail on the head. Exactly! Transitions are times for mistakes to be made however, practice, practice, practice can/will reduce most errors. My question to the two situations would be, who asked what type of gear they were jumping at home. Did they own their own rig and not bring it or did they use rental gear at home. Big red flags would have come up. I do not send anyone off on a transition jump withoug me, another instructor, or a coach. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #17 September 23, 2003 Did my AFF four years ago and have that transition marked in my logbook.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #18 September 23, 2003 :) I did my AFF 3 years ago and have never jumped anything other than a throw outI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
