Is It Illegal?

[TrickyDicky 0]

You have a friend with a plane. He takes you on a lift. You jump out over your own land that is big (some farm or something) and land there.

In the UK (and anywhere else) is this actually Illegal or does it just break BPA (or USPA) regs. If you did get caught, what would happen. If the pilot isnt making any money out of it and just having fun why does it matter?

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[Unutsch 0]

it does matter when an (god forbid) accident happens...

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[gus 1]

From this document (pdf) on the Civil Aviation Authority website:

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An aircraft shall not be used for the purpose of dropping persons unless the Certificate of Airworthiness issued or rendered valid in respect of that aircraft under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered includes an express provision that it may be used for that purpose and the aircraft is operated in accordance with a written Permission granted by the CAA.

It doesn't say what the sanctions might be if you broke these rules buy I imagine the pilot could get into some trouble.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[lazyfrog 0]

in switzerland it's legal, even if teh pilot makes money... as long as the owner of the land is OK

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Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[tombuch 0]

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You have a friend with a plane. He takes you on a lift. You jump out over your own land that is big (some farm or something) and land there.

In the UK (and anywhere else) is this actually Illegal or does it just break BPA (or USPA) regs. If you did get caught, what would happen. If the pilot isnt making any money out of it and just having fun why does it matter?

In the United States it depends on the type of airspace. If it is controlled airspace (A, B, C, D) then the jump requires authorization from the FAA. If it is into class E or G airspace (rural communities without a major airport nearby) the jump only requires the notification of air traffic control, a much simpler process.

It sounds like you are talking about a big farm, not near a city, and not near a major airport. So, if it is in the USA you probably only need to notify ATC. The rules are spelled out in part 105. Your pilot friend can look at an aviation sectional and tell you what kind of airspace is involved.

As for your friend, the pilot...as long as no money is changing hands and no value is offered to the pilot, then he is welcome to drop you off. Keep in mind that there are some serious issues with regard to door removal, slow flight, and weight and balance that should be addressed, so your friend should have a detailed briefing from an experienced jump pilot.

Check with your drop zone for specific local rules, and an evaluation of your skill and the pilot skills before you attempt the proposed jump.

Tom Buchanan
FAA Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Ron 7]

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As for your friend, the pilot...as long as no money is changing hands and no value is offered to the pilot,
then he is welcome to drop you off. Keep in mind that there are some serious issues with regard to door
removal,

Just re stressing this part...You need the STC for flight with the door removed...Not all airplanes have this....And it has to be IN the Airplane.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]as long as no money is changing hands and no value is offered to the pilot[/QUOTE]

What if the pilot is doing it just for flight hours? And he is getting his gas compensated? Is that ok, or would that require a commercial license?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Pablito 0]

Dude go To Argentina, I Rented an Airplane, we took the door and flying we went. the little C172 only got to 6000 feet in about 20 minutes, but there was no problem. We never notifyed air controlers or anything. the Pilot told me as long as we don't over 10000msl you can do as you please :)
I love that shit:)

"If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first"
Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito

[whocares 0]

Bandit jump

[goose491 0]

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What if the pilot is doing it just for flight hours? And he is getting his gas compensated? Is that ok, or would that require a commercial license?

If you hold a private pilots license, you can accept compensation up to and including all costs associated witht the flight. The only thing you can't do is make a profit.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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What if the pilot is doing it just for flight hours? And he is getting his gas compensated? Is that ok, or would
that require a commercial license?

In the States it is a SERIOUS gray area...

The FAR's state that you can SHARE the expenses of a flight with the other passengers. Most take earning flight hrs as compensation...so you would need a commercial ticket.

However, if this was a jump just to do it, and the pilot was rated, you had the proper paperwork in the plane, were in the airspace that allows it, did it just once...ect I doubt it would be a big deal.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

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Most take earning flight hrs as compensation...so you would need a commercial ticket.
However, if this was a jump just to do it, and the pilot was rated, you had the proper paperwork in the plane, were in the airspace that allows it, did it just once...ect I doubt it would be a big deal.

Technically, a private pilot cannot take a passenger on any sort of training flight.

That is to say that I can take a friend with me on a x-country but I cannot log those hours towards my commercial licence training. In this situation, I can accept all moneys from this friend of mine up to and including the costs of the flight. So as a poor private pilot, I can say yes to my buddy saying "Hey man, I need to get to Sudbury tomorow, can you fly me there if I pay for everything?"

Now, you've got to log a ton of solo hours to get to your commercial... I don't know a single pilot today that didn't take passengers for fun while making those hours up. It's not the type of regulation that is stickly enforced. Really, all you have to worry about as a private pilot, is that you do not pocket any funds from flying a plane.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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You have a friend with a plane. He takes you on a lift. You jump out over your own land that is big (some farm or something) and land there.

In the UK (and anywhere else) is this actually Illegal or does it just break BPA (or USPA) regs. If you did get caught, what would happen. If the pilot isnt making any money out of it and just having fun why does it matter?

Here in Canada (and I'm sure it's the same in the states) our air regulations state that in uncontroled airspace, a pilot need only file NOTAMs (Notice to all airmen) with flight service indicating parachute activity along with the location and estimated time, in order to drop jumpers. The CSPA says you need your EJR to jump anywhere that is not a DZ but that is the jumpers responsibility, not the pilots. Actually, Flight Service here in Canada does have a form to fill to ease the process. It does ask for the jumpers EJR number but I know for a fact that it is not checked out... got no EJR? Dummy that number and go (I didn't say that). Remember too that the USPA and CSPA regulations are not federal Law wheras FAA and AIP ones are.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[tombuch 0]

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In this situation, I can accept all moneys from this friend of mine up to and including the costs of the flight. So as a poor private pilot, I can say yes to my buddy saying "Hey man, I need to get to Sudbury tomorow, can you fly me there if I pay for everything?"

Be very careful. You can share the expenses of the flight with your passenger, but he can not pay for the entire cost of the flight. You also need to be cautious of "holding out" to the public...if you take one friend once, that's probably OK, but if you offer your serves to many friends or classes of people it could be considered a "commercial operation."

You also need to be sure you are not providing transportation for hire. Taking a friend on a trip as a private pilot is fine, as long as you were going flying anyway, and the specific transportation is incidental to the flight. If the reason for the flight was to transport your friend, you may be on the hook for a violation regardless of his or your participation in cost sharing.

Private pilot privileges are very limited. It is wise to avoid looking for loopholes and making regulations fit your needs...the FAA doesn't look at a flight that way at all.

I hate to say it, but if you get a commercial certificate you will be far better versed in regulatory authority, although you will still not be able to hold out to the public and provide transportation services to all passengers.

Tom Buchanan
FAA Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[goose491 0]

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Be very careful. You can share the expenses of the flight with your passenger, but he can not pay for the entire cost of the flight.

Dude, as a private pilot you can so be compensated entirely for the cost of the flight... The only thing you can't do is accept any sort of profit. Listen to this "Sharing the cost"... Who cares who's flipping the bill for rental and gas? The government canot restrict anyone in terms of that. What if I have my private, and I come from money so my dear ol' daddy decides he's gonna pay for all my commercial training? What if I have the private and I want to make an x-country and the same ol' rich daddy flips the bill? There is nothing that says the pilot in command must be the one who pays for the cost of the flight. There is nothing that says the pilot in command must pay even part of it. Again, I am 110% positive that if you may, while holding a private license, fly a friend around and let him/her pay for the entire thing.

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You also need to be sure you are not providing transportation for hire. Taking a friend on a trip as a private pilot is fine, as long as you were going flying anyway and the specific transportation is incidental to the flight. If the reason for the flight was to transport your friend, you may be on the hook for a violation regardless of his or your participation in cost sharing.

Wrong man. You are not doing anything "for hire" if you are not accepting any funds for it. As long as you were going flying anyway??? That's just silly! Where does it say that? Where is that from? So when my friend that called me last week and said: "Nick, let's go flying! Can we please!".... I should have said: "Sorry, I wasn't planning on flying today, now I can't take you because I wasn't going flying before you asked."??? And the purpose of the flight is not rellavant (other than that which states that you can't take passengers on 'trainning flights' which I described earlier.) There is no violation. My sister Drove home to Toronto from Ottoawa to go on a trip to Florida with my mother a few months ago. It wasn't until she got here that she realised she had left her passport. Realising there was no time to drive back and get it before her flight the next morning, I booked a Bonanza, and flew her there and back... No pre-plan to fly that day. She didn't pay for it but you think if when the bill came up, and my sis pulled out her credit card, that dispatch would say:"Uhm, excuse me ma'm, but he has to pay... you cannot." ?

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Private pilot privileges are very limited. It is wise to avoid looking for loopholes and making regulations fit your needs...the FAA doesn't look at a flight that way at all.

These are not loopholes!!! A drivers licence lets you drive passengers anywhere you want to take them and they can pay for your gas, your maintenance and even a portion of you insurance if it comes down to it but you cannot carry passengers for hire unless you get the proper certification... buddy it's the exact same in the air I guarantee.

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I hate to say it, but if you get a commercial certificate you will be far better versed in regulatory authority, although you will still not be able to hold out to the public and provide transportation services to all passengers.

Come on now! Please! My training may not be complete, but it doesn't take a commercial licence to read! My training up until Private was done a Sault College in Sault Ste. Marie, ON... This was the topic a great discussion... Dude, it's been covered and confirmed, you can fly a friend and be %100 compensated. It's when that compensation becomes %101 or greater that you are in violation.


Edited to remove Toms sig tag from my post ;-)

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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Dude, as a private pilot you can so be compensated entirely for the cost of the flight

Wrong.

The FAA has talked to a few people I know (Like me) during a ramp check. I have a private license and every once in a while I would fly the jump plane and the pilot, and staff would do a jump.

The FAA guy didn't like it one little bit. He said I was not allowed to fly comercial with my private ticket. I told him I didn't get paid a cent, and the people were not paying for the ride.

He told me that the flight time COULD be considered as compensation. As it was he let me do it since we had a very good relationship with them.

But if anyone did pay for a ticket...then I would be busted as hell.

This just happened to a buddy of mine that was flying the DZ's cessna to help them out...The FAA warned the DZO to not let it happen again.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

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Dude, as a private pilot you can so be compensated entirely for the cost of the flight

Wrong.... He told me that the flight time COULD be considered as compensation. As it was he let me do it since we had a very good relationship with them.

It's all about the word "COULD"... why is it COULD and not IS??? Because there are more than one possible situation.

Dude, read my previous posts. The parts about taking passengers on training flights. Say you need another X number of hours of solo x-country time to qualify for your commercial. You cannot have a passenger with you for any of those hours... does that mean you can't do a cross-country with a pal? No. It means that if you do, you cannot log that cross-country against the X hours needed for commercial. Now if you took a passenger who paid for the whole flight with you AND counted those hours against your commercial requirements (you'd already be in violation but) those hours ARE compensation above and beyond the cost of the flight.

Let's look at the private pilot... the one who is not interested in getting his/her commercial. If he/she flys a pal around and said pal pays for it all, then those hours are NOT, i repeat NOT a form of compensation.

So once again, if you are not counting the flight time as training towards your commercial license, then the hours are not a benefit to you and thusly not any form of compensation.

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But if anyone did pay for a ticket...then I would be busted as hell.

Well yeah! 'cause then you'd truly be flying for commercial purposes.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

ANYWAY!

The question asked was is it illegal to jump from your buddies plane, off DZ and the answer is no, so long as you notify the proper authorities and have all your documents in order.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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It's all about the word "COULD"... why is it COULD and not IS??? Because there are more than one possible
situation.

Have fun...I'll go with what *the man* told me....Since he can take my ratings, and you can't.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

Alright bud, suit yourself.

But if *the man* said COULD, then you must realize that he meant "COULD"... I'd ask him to elaborate if I were you.

I promise you, as a private licence holder, you can fly a friend and have him/her pay the cost... if you're THAT hung up on the words "Sharing the cost...", well then, toss in a quarter or a dime

So anyway, are you working at your commercial? How you enjoying it? Got long to go?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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So anyway, are you working at your commercial? How you enjoying it? Got long to go?

Nope...I was starting. Then I became a type II diabetic while I was in the Army. My Flight Doc told me to scratch the professional pilot plans. Then Army told me I would not be able to stay in.

I have my class 3 and he said I'll keep it for a long time, but he says at some point I will lose it, and with it any career I had.

So now I have 33,000 I was going to use for flight training...And I can't use it for Skydive University either....Now what am I gonna do?

Oh well...Guess I'll just skydive more.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

Oh man, that's a cryin' shame bro! Happened to a classmate of mine, I'm sorry.

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Oh well...Guess I'll just skydive more.

This is the brightest side I think

Blue skies to you.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

From the CARS (Canadian Aviation Regulations)


602.26 Except where permitted in accordance with section 603.37, no pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall permit, and no person shall conduct, a parachute descent from the aircraft

(a) in or into controlled airspace or an air route; or

(b) over or into a built-up area or an open-air assembly of persons.

[BBKid 0]

Hey Rich, I asked one of the P'lee pilots about this (it may have been young Malcolm) once, and he relied that ther wasn't really against any law, but at the same time it was illegal in soooooo many ways.

Basically, a pilot needs to be licensed to drop skydivers, and no parachute dropping operations are to be conducted unless on BPA or military dropzones in the UK. Although, you could say there was an aircraft emergency whilst you were on a pleasure flight, and that you routinely carried your rig in case of such an emergency.

The "emergency" would probably have to be reported to the CAA though. Not really worth the bother.

Nice username, by the way.

Nick
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"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"