Fireflyer 0 #1 September 8, 2003 On my A-license check out dive this weekend I induced a line twist around 2,000 ft, and it shook me a bit. I was having a blast, pulling the the right toggle hard, and was in a sweet right hand spiral from about 3-3300K; did about 3 - 360s. I usually plan to stop all manuveurs by 2500. All the sudden, I feel I am dropping and I am spinning about the axis of the lines above, winding them up. I am starting to return to vertical at this point. I look up, see the lines twisted almost all the way to the top. I release the right toggle instantly, check altitude (now 1700), and started moving my hand instantly to my cutaway. By the time my right hand was on my cutaway pillow, the chute was returning to stable flight - a bit of kicking got me out as well as releasing the toggle I assume I have had minor twists in my exceptionally limited time jumping from packing, but this one seemed like a "real" mal to me as I started to drop again. I am 146lbs, and 169 out the door, on a Sabre 190. (0.9 WL). I have 23 jumps, and have admittedly flown this chute in this fashion before. Winds were light and variable, but there was some turbulence in spots and updrafts here and there - I am sure I could not feel any wind changes with my experience, but recall the wind being bumpy in the area on the next jump. It turned out to be the best dive of the day, and I was 2m from target. I also pat myself on the back and would not change a thing I did - I remember distinctly feeling "in control" of the situation when all this was recurring, from the altitude, my position/view over the ground, etc. I even remember thinking "man 'XYZ' is going to kill me for having to cutaway his chute!" (in a joking way). Somehow I felt I 'knew' all was kosher - like I would give it a sec or two to fix then it was 'bye-bye main'. I am glad it happened for the experience. Admittedly, I was timid about doing any manuveurs later that day - I was a bit gunshy. I think I will be fine next weekend, as I will try some moves like this higher up. I have read this happens to some chutes when in a sharp turn, but what might have I done wrong? Was I pushing it too hard? Is is my wing loading on this chute? Any tips for the newbie to not get into this again (not just "don't do that" - I have already learned the lesson to flying conservative) Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #2 September 9, 2003 QuoteOn my A-license check out dive this weekend I induced a line twist around 2,000 ft, and it shook me a bit. I was having a blast, pulling the the right toggle hard, and was in a sweet right hand spiral from about 3-3300K; did about 3 - 360s. I usually plan to stop all manuveurs by 2500. All the sudden, I feel I am dropping and I am spinning about the axis of the lines above, winding them up. I am starting to return to vertical at this point. I look up, see the lines twisted almost all the way to the top. I release the right toggle instantly, check altitude (now 1700), and started moving my hand instantly to my cutaway. By the time my right hand was on my cutaway pillow, the chute was returning to stable flight - a bit of kicking got me out as well as releasing the toggle I assume I have had minor twists in my exceptionally limited time jumping from packing, but this one seemed like a "real" mal to me as I started to drop again. I am 146lbs, and 169 out the door, on a Sabre 190. (0.9 WL). I have 23 jumps, and have admittedly flown this chute in this fashion before. Winds were light and variable, but there was some turbulence in spots and updrafts here and there - I am sure I could not feel any wind changes with my experience, but recall the wind being bumpy in the area on the next jump. It turned out to be the best dive of the day, and I was 2m from target. I also pat myself on the back and would not change a thing I did - I remember distinctly feeling "in control" of the situation when all this was recurring, from the altitude, my position/view over the ground, etc. I even remember thinking "man 'XYZ' is going to kill me for having to cutaway his chute!" (in a joking way). Somehow I felt I 'knew' all was kosher - like I would give it a sec or two to fix then it was 'bye-bye main'. I am glad it happened for the experience. Admittedly, I was timid about doing any manuveurs later that day - I was a bit gunshy. I think I will be fine next weekend, as I will try some moves like this higher up. I have read this happens to some chutes when in a sharp turn, but what might have I done wrong? Was I pushing it too hard? Is is my wing loading on this chute? Any tips for the newbie to not get into this again (not just "don't do that" - I have already learned the lesson to flying conservative) Thanks! this is a perfect example of why the new isp has the student preform these "high performance" menouvers at a high altatude. they want to show you that you can spin up into line twist and also to show you that the canopy dives. so you dont do somthing like this at a low altatude.. if you had done this say at 500 ft.. you might not be here right now.. it is very very easy to spin yourself into severe line twist. especially on a very lightly loaded canopy.. glad to see you learned the lesson.. i did the same thing when i started... but like i said. this is a prime example of why the new isp has students do this on the little yellow card before they get signed off... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #3 September 9, 2003 first, let me say i'm glad your o.k. secondly, don not be lulled into a false sense of security because "the bad thing" didn't happen to you this time, next time you might not be so lucky. i wish i had a dime for every time i've seen new sky divers pull this exact same stunt while under a lightly loaded canopy. a light wing load will cause you to keep turning and the canopy to stay in the same position. i'll probably get the usaul arguments from the usaual crowd on this theory, but i've seen it too many times. next time you do this, make sure to keep an eye on your canopy as well as canopy traffic. Take Care, Be Safe.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fireflyer 0 #4 September 9, 2003 so 2 both of you - what really was the cause? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #5 September 9, 2003 Quoteso 2 both of you - what really was the cause? i honestly dont know exactly what could cause this.... at least im haveing trouble putting it into words.... but you try and go take one of the student canopies and try this... it could easaly spin into line twist... is there somone out there that could explain this.... im not the best person to ask when it comes to explaining things.... read the post above this one i think he did ok at explaining this.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymick 0 #6 September 9, 2003 Sounds like you could of been doing a hard spiral one direction then quickly performing a hard spiral in the opposite direction. Because when you turn you and the canopy are both basically facing the same direction but then you turn the other dir the canopy turns but the inertia of your body keeps you in the orginal direction you were facing until the canopy pulls you in the other direction. But if its quick enough your body wont 'catch' up to the canopy and you get line twists. Hope that makes sense Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 September 9, 2003 Quotewhat really was the cause? Pulling down both toggles far enough and long enough causes the canopy to stall, fold up and fall backwards (lots of fun at altitude). Pulling one toggle far enough and long enough causes one side of the canopy to stall, allowing the non-stalled side to fly around the stalled side, resulting in line twists. Releasing/removing the input to the toggle will stop the spin IF the canopy pulls the steering line back up through the line twists. If it doesn't, then the canopy will continue to fly around itself, making the situation worse with a cutaway and reserve deployment the only option. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fireflyer 0 #8 September 9, 2003 QuoteQuotewhat really was the cause? Pulling down both toggles far enough and long enough causes the canopy to stall, fold up and fall backwards (lots of fun at altitude). . Derek is this REALLY fun? were you being sacastic? if it is in fact "fun", how recoverable is it? sounds too advanced for me i am sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 September 9, 2003 Quoteis this REALLY fun? were you being sacastic? if it is in fact "fun", how recoverable is it? I guess it depends on your definition of 'fun'.. With larger canopies, it is easily recoverable, simply slowly let the toggles back up and the canopy will re-inflate and fly again. Letting the toggles up too quickly can result in slack lines, line twists, etc. Quotesounds too advanced for me i am sure. There is no real need to completely fold-up your canopy, but knowing where the stall point of your canopy is is useful information. Slowly flare the canopy until you feel it begin to sink, almost straight down. Definately discuss finding the stall point of your canopy with your Instructor prior to attempting it. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fireflyer 0 #10 September 9, 2003 thanks...sounds like / felt like that. Q: what effect does WL have in this (line twists)? are more heavily loaded canopies more resistant to them? is my light load of 0.9 a factor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #11 September 9, 2003 Quote is this REALLY fun? were you being sacastic? if it is in fact "fun", how recoverable is it? sounds too advanced for me i am sure. its fun, but only in the freaky kind of fun. I did it last weekend on my Triathalon, and it dropped me like a rock when it stalled. freaked the hell outta me, but it was kinda cool at the same time. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #12 September 10, 2003 Quotethanks...sounds like / felt like that. Q: what effect does WL have in this (line twists)? are more heavily loaded canopies more resistant to them? is my light load of 0.9 a factor? No canopy is immune from them but a more heavily loaded canopy can easily make line twists an unrecoverable situation. 6 or 7 line twists on a student canopy or something loaded 1:1, probably not an issue. The same amount on a loaded canopy (especially an elliptical) and you're probably going to be going on a pretty wild ride. I've been there, it's not fun.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #13 September 10, 2003 Quotethanks...sounds like / felt like that. Q: what effect does WL have in this (line twists)? are more heavily loaded canopies more resistant to them? is my light load of 0.9 a factor? I might be (and probably am!) wrong, but it was my understanding that if a canopy is too lightly loaded making the skydiver more of a passenger than a pilot. For example, you were doing a right spiral then quickly levelled out or started a left spiral, your body would keep on moving in the first direction but the canopy would be much more reactive to the change of direction and your body wouldnt have the weight to slow the canopy reaction down. So as the canopy stops the right spiral your body continues it and may cause a twist. As I say i'm probably wrong so please correct me! ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #14 September 10, 2003 is this REALLY fun? were you being sacastic? if it is in fact "fun", how recoverable is it? sounds too advanced for me i am sure. It's a lot of fun. With a larger canopy like you're probably flying, you may need to wrap the brake lines around your hand to be able to truly collapse the canopy. Do it slowly, and make sure that you're pulling down on both toggles evenly. You'll feel yourself 'fall' backwards slightly, and then you'll be falling straight down. To recover, GENTLY and EVENLY let up on both toggles. If you let up on one significantly more than the other, you'll spin your lines up. What I'll do is keep the heels of my hands against the sides of my body and legs as I'm braking in to the stall, and bring them up also against my legs and body while recovering. It's just easier to keep things steady that way. It's fun and it's safe, but you are still collapsing your canopy, so don't do it too low!! Stay safe. If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
