ralu 0 #51 February 20, 2003 Well, I was a student like that. I've made 12 static line jumps, after those I've started with 3 sec freefall, 5,7, 10... and so on. I just had to count. I used an altimeter for the first time when I had about 60 jumps and I've find it very useful after the canopy was open. ralu what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #52 February 20, 2003 Quote"If your eyes tell you you are low and the altimeter says you're not - believe your eyes. If your alti says you are low - believe your alti... when something starts to beep and it may be prematurely - sort things out under canopy, not in freefall..." I think this is a good attitude for altitude - err on the side of caution and believe whichever input says you are the lowest. With regards to the free-flying, do FFers use the horizon as an altitude indicator? I know that new jumpers are told to do this when landing, but can a FF effectively use it to determine altitude +/- 500 feet? If so, that would make more sense, but it might be a problem when you jump close to a large mountain range, like I do. In that case, the horizon may easily slope upwards or downwards with the changing ground elevation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #53 February 20, 2003 Quote The assumption was made that I am device dependant. Well, to be honest I am not. I use my eyes mostly. However, I have hundreds of jumps of cross refferencing my guesses with that device and I am pretty accurate now. I only made the assumtion because of the following statement you made. "Actually, I have jumped without one a few times and it scared the sheeeeeeeet out of me. I pulled high as hell just to make sure I had plenty of altitude to deal with." To deal with what? Fear? Quote Students don't have that experience. No shit Quote If I have a malfunction, the first thing I look at is my altimeter. I want to know how much time I have to work with. Am I lower than I thought. Did my canopy snivel longer than usuall. The first thing I do is look at the ground btw- Do you also use your altimeter to set up your landing? If so I would again say you are device dependent. If not where is your cut of point in altitude that you trust your eyes. Quote If you want to be one of the people who advocate jumping without an altimeter, then I will take great pleasure to keep on saying that it is plain out STUPID and so are you for not wearing it. I do not advocate that others jump without an altimeter. I will however defend my right to do so. I will never encourage anyone to jump with out one. I think it is very foolish to send a student up without one, even a tandem. I was jumping for years before I regularly went without one Quote If you don't want to look at it, fine, but at least wear the thing. what is it going to hurt? Well, I have seen several people catch there altimeter on the door ( wrist mount) and either tear it off or torque part of that appendage. At least one person was killed by a chest mount altimeter. I could think of several more but I don't seem as though I am advocating jumping without one. There are a couple of reasons that I do not jump with one. Right now the main one is that I do not have one. I have went through three altimeters since I started skydiving. After the second one I decided not to buy on again. My girlfriend bought me one this year before I went to Rantoul. This one was either stolen at Skyquest or possibly by the baggage handlers at the airlines. If you want to buy me another one, I promise I will wear it. Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralu 0 #54 February 20, 2003 I can't agree yor statement "I think it is very foolish to send a student up without one, even a tandem. " You can let the student jump without any device, but the freefall time has to be very short. At first 3-5 sec and then gradually add more. So, I think, the alitmeter is great because with it the student will have a longer freefall sooner. ralu what would be a woman without her dreams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,153 #55 February 20, 2003 I did many student jumps without altimeters, also. Having an altimeter is better. People drove for years without seat belts, but seat belts are better. That said, I can see using counting as a way to set your internal clock; I think it's better that way than just by kind of hoping it happens automatically. It can be safe to put students out without them, especially on rounds (that way you don't worry about late hook turns as much). It's just generally safer with one. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #56 February 20, 2003 I am just now learning where I am in the air, +/- 500-1000 feet (which, should a situation occur, would be quite enough to kill me). While I don't look at it as I/we leave the plane, I do use it often during the rest of the jump. Why? Because I kinda like to know when to pull. Look, it's fine for experienced people to go without a piece of equipment. And yes I've experienced a jump wherein my alti was reading weird. And yes, I decided to pull high because I'm not really good at math in freefall. Did I know it was wonky before I left the plane? Yep. Did I leave the plane anyway? Yep. Would I do it again? Perhaps, should the conditions be appropriate (last out, solo, and no-one above me to worry about pulling high). Should students/"young" jumpers use one? I choose to. Can't say for anyone else...but I choose to. Call me equipment dependent should you want. I don't think I am. I have enough stress on a jump to want to NOT contribute more by wondering - "hmmmm, how's my internal altimeter doing today??? Geesh, I hope I'm right". Maybe in 500 jumps I'll know I'm right. 'Til then, I'm jumping with one. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #57 February 20, 2003 May I throw some gasoline on this fire? I never looked at my altimeter during my last 18 malfunctions. The first time was after a short freefall. Since it was s short freefall, I was not wearing an altimeter. After pulling (near 3,000 feet), I looked up at a streamered main overhead, listened to the wind rushing past me, then looked at the ground rushing up, decided that I would not walk away from the landing and pulled my reserve ripcord. My last malfunction was under a spinning Diablo. Since I had only jumped from 3,000 feet and only freefallen for a couple of seconds, I had a rough idea of altitude. As I tried - unsuccessfully - to kick out of the line twists, I could see the planet spinning rapidly in my peripheral vision. The spinning planet looked like it does when I am below 2,000 feet.I contemplated looking at my altimeter, but concluded that would be a waste of time, so I shifted my focus to looking at handle san grabbing them. In conclusion, I consider looking at altimeters a waste of time when you are hanging under a malfunctioned main parachute. That being said, I always jump with wrist and ear-mounted altimeters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #58 February 20, 2003 QuoteI in no way will ever say that it is a good idea to send up a student without an alitmeter and no amount of ignorant statements will EVER change my opinion on that one folks. You might as well save your finger energy for my sake. Quote"A closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist" Both from the same post....hmmmm.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #59 February 20, 2003 >I don't care how things were done back in the days of Moses. This is >2003 and we should know how important safety is. You may think things like altitude awareness without devices is outdated, but gravity still kills people just as dead as it always did if you don't pull, just like when I started. You have to be able to safely skydive, break off, open and land without an altimeter, in case your altimeter ever fails (which it sometimes does.) If it ever does, pray you have practiced without one under perfect conditions; that way you will be better prepared when it happens unexpectedly under not-so-perfect conditions. I know, new jumpers have these great audibles, they're really reliable, AFF is better than SL, new canopies are better than they were when Jesus made his first jump etc. Still, there is often something to be learned from old-time jumpers; not caring about their experience can be a mistake. >Airplane flight instructors don't mess up an airplane when someone >is going through training to simulate emergencies. Yes they do. They cover instruments to make them unreadable. >Stupidity and ignorance offend me. People who disagree with you (without personal attacks) are not 'stupid and ignorant.' If people who disagree with you offend you, I would suggest you do not participate in discussions where you may see other opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #60 February 20, 2003 I still think a very important issue here is the statement that an altimeter is erratic during freefall acceleration. This makes it dangerous to use an altimeter for student delays less than 15 seconds. It will read higher because pressure is lower, and the student can end up a 1000' low. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #61 February 20, 2003 Quotean altimeter is erratic during freefall acceleration. I have not used an Alti-3, but I have used a Northstar, Altimaster-2, FT-50, and Digitude. I have not observed erratic readings during freefall acceleration, including many jumps with delays in the 10-20 second range. Does the orange warning label "erratic" mean "reads higher than it should," "reads lower than it should," or "needle bounces around alot?" Is this phenomenon common to all altimeters, just mechanical ones, or just Alti-3's? QuoteIt will read higher because pressure is lower, and the student can end up a 1000' low. I suppose you could argue that there is Venturi-type interference with the altimeter static port, but depending on the presentation to the relative wind, there could be a ram-air effect, couldn't there? How did you arrive at the 1000' foot low figure? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #62 February 21, 2003 Quote In conclusion, I consider looking at altimeters a waste of time when you are hanging under a malfunctioned main parachute. That being said, I always jump with wrist and ear-mounted altimeters. I must confess I also chopped a few without ever looking at my altimeter. ( only one riser still attached - the other one wrapped around the slider, pilotchute that wouldn't come out of its pocket while I screamed passed a student I just dropped, releasing a tandem drogue and not decelerating at all...) Yet on other occasions I did make cutaway-decisions 'consulting my altimeter' and like you I carry 2 (normal + audio) most of the time. "better to realize you never looked than to look and realize the gadget is still in the cupboard..." "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #63 February 21, 2003 Quote an altimeter is erratic during freefall acceleration. It will read higher because pressure is lower, and the student can end up a 1000' low. If you have an altimeter that ever reads as much as 1,000 feet off, you need to throw it in the next bond fire you are hanging out around. I have never seen an altimeter read that far off. That is either a case of a malfunctioning altimeter or someone that has consumed too much beer and is telling stories again. Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #64 February 21, 2003 You people can argue this till beer is free all around the world on mondays. I still say that EVERYONE needs to wear a freakin altimeter of some sort on every dive. If you choose not to use, well that one is up to you, but do our sport a favor to help us from looking bad if you go in for some reason. I have over 2,000 pack jobs and not one of them has ever resulted in a reserve ride. Over 600 of them I have jumped myself. The only reserve ride that I have to my credit came from a student cypres fire under a good canopy. I was simply spiralling too low and fired the darn thing. I had an instant downplane and didn't care how high I was, I just needed to fix it. There are times when you should just react and then there are times when an altimeter is a good referrence. I have seen days when out of nowhere, the little cessna took forever to climb to alitude and by the time we checked the spot and made the 10,500 foot freefall, there was a heavy haze layer that really obstructed depth perception to the point that it was impossible to judge how high we were. I thought for sure that layer was from 5,500-3,500. As it turned out, that layer was from 2,500-1,500. It had built up just as quick as it took us to climb to altitude. We could still see the ground and landmarks, but none the less. Everyone on the load was "dead" wrong about where it was. If we had all not been wearing altimeters or if we had all made seperate exits, then everyone one of us would have been low as shit and someone might have gotten hurt. Moral of the story:You don't have to look at your altimeter if you don't want to, but at least wear the thing just in case you decide that it might not be such a bad idea to check it. Once you leave an airplane, it is too late to decide that having an altimeter would be a good idea. If you want to teach someone how to use their eyes. Give them an altimeter and tell them to cross ref their guesses. They will learn much faster. The chances of the altimeter working are much greater than they are for it to malfunction. Above all else, good ole common sense applies to everything. As for the old time skydivers.....well a lot more of them are dead per capita than the new generation. Reasons might be a lot different, but none the less. I trust my own judgement and I was taught to do that from jump number one. My instructors all had thousands of jumps with perfect safety records and everyone of them drilled into our little newbie heads that altimeters were required equipment. After all, it just fell into the category of good ole common sense. You people talk about wanting to keep our sport self regulated.....well maybe you need to address the carelessness so we don't end up having more regulation imposed on us because people are being stupid and not wearing proper safety equipment. It will only be a matter of time that things change. Keep doing the stupid stuff and it will change faster.....I promise. I love my freedom, but I don't take advantage of it and I don't do things that make it look like I don't deserve to have it. "Ignorance is bliss" --unknown, but they must have been smart Listo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #65 February 21, 2003 Have you noticed that this and other threads seem to be you vs the rest of the fourms....Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #66 February 21, 2003 I am not going to get into a debate of who is right or wrong here.......but I do believe that there are more people in this thread that have the same views as I do. There are just more posts from those who disagree with me, don't confuse that with the number of opinions. Last time I checked, the same opinion stated numerous times doesn't count more than the number of people with given opinions. I just care enough to get the message out to low timers that it is a good idea to always wear an altimeter and that learning visual refferencing is better and more accurately done when it is cross ref'd with an altimeter. Good day to you sir.Listo EDIT: Actually, I just went back and read through the entire thread and concluded that only 6 of 29 people who posted to this thread differ in opinion with me. I might also add that of those 6, a few weren't really saying anything about students jumping without altimeters. Another thing about those same 6 is that a few of those are also students defending their dropzones policies.Sorry Phree, but you are wrong this time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #67 February 21, 2003 QuoteI only made the assumtion because of the following statement you made. "Actually, I have jumped without one a few times and it scared the sheeeeeeeet out of me. I pulled high as hell just to make sure I had plenty of altitude to deal with." To deal with what? Fear? to answer your question......my "fear" was of being too low or not having enough time to deal with a malfunction. I have hit the ground before and I know how dang bad it hurts. I don't ever care to do it again. I would venture to say that you haven't broken any bones while skydiving. If you had, then you could appreciate my "fear" and respect it.Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #68 February 21, 2003 QuoteIf you have an altimeter that ever reads as much as 1,000 feet off, you need to throw it in the next bond fire you are hanging out around. Stop arguing so much. Altimeter manufacturers advertise accuracy to within +-500 feet when they're new. Being at 1000 feet off is entirely possible, and I imagine it's surprisingly common. I've seen my Suunto watch and Alti-3 700 feet different! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #69 February 21, 2003 Quote Stop arguing so much I didn't see myself argueing in the least. Personally, I would dispose of it or send it back to the manufacturer to be recalibrated. I have owned two visual altimeters. Neither one ever broke, but when I noticed that my first one was consistantly 500' off, I replaced it. If I ever have any doubt of whether or not my alti is out of calibration, the next jump is with two other altimeters to check it out. All of this is in conjunction with my audible too. I might find that it is my audible that is acting up. To everyone: However, this has not one thing to do with the initial thread that I started in here. So, can we keep it on subject please.Listo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #70 February 21, 2003 QuoteAt least one person was killed by a chest mount altimeter No shit????? What's this story?????HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #71 February 21, 2003 Bill, can we lock this one? I believe that the subject has been covered. I don't think that there is anything else to really be added to this. Both sides of the story have been addressed. I don't want to see this turn into a fiasco. After all, the original thread was about students and there has been a lot of discussion about experienced jumpers. I don't want to give students the wrong idea. The USPA mandates that all students must wear an altimeter and a student is classified as anyone without an A license or higher. Granted, not everyone that reads this is affilliated with the USPA, but I am and I care mostly about USPA members, as I do not know fully the rules and regs for other affilliations. I do not want to step on any toes of our foriegn brethren. Thank you, ListoLive today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #72 February 21, 2003 Basically he tripped and fell on it during landing and it caused fatal injuries. I was thinking broken ribs or something too but the .info page seems to be down at the moment.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #73 February 21, 2003 4/29/2000 Lexington, MO Description: After a main malfunction, this jumper had a normal cutaway and reserve pull. On landing, he fell forward and his chest mount altimeter hit him in the center of his throat; the landing was also hard enough to chip the outside of his femer by his knee. The neck injury cut off his air supply and he suffocated. He was jumping an older 5-cell Swift Plus reserve which is rated for 210lbs. His exit weight was 209. It seems likely that he made a low turn before landing in order to have generated enough speed to cause these injuries. He landed somewhat near his main and freebag, so he may have been following those down. from skydivingfatalities.comSkydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #74 February 21, 2003 Quote At least one person was killed by a chest mount altimeter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No shit????? What's this story????? Quote Basically he tripped and fell on it during landing and it caused fatal injuries. Can that really be blamed on the altimeter though. Sounds more like a botched landing. Listo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #75 February 21, 2003 >Bill, can we lock this one? Why? No personal attacks are going on, and the issue of altimeter use for students/lowtimers/experienced jumpers is one that deserves consideration. Keep in mind that one very important use of these threads is that lurkers read them and get exposed to different points of view. Generally I don't lock a thread/delete posts unless the rules get broken or someone gives out some really deadly advice (condition your cutaway cables with Elmer's glue or something.) >I don't want to see this turn into a fiasco. Well, you have some control over that. >Last time I checked, the same opinion stated numerous times >doesn't count more than the number of people with given opinions. Now, to be fair, you've posted 20 times on this thread, far more than anyone else here. You have made your opinion quite clear, and it's a valid one. You needn't 'defeat' those who disagree with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
