Students jumping WITHOUT an altimeter

[riggerrob 561]

In the long run we want students to learn how to judge altitude by eyeball. All those fancy altimeters, stop watches and beepers are just training aids.

[mikeat10500 10]

Quote

In the long run we want students to learn how to judge altitude by eyeball. All those fancy altimeters, stop watches and beepers are just training aids.

I agree 100%...Altimeter/stopwatch/EYEBALLS

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[tattoojeff 0]

most students are so pegged out there awareness probably isnt capable to register altitude visualy. not to mention if they never have an altimeter with them how are they suppose to know what 3000 feet looks like, they"ll never know when there at 3000 feet. this training method sounds dangerous for students but a good idea once there off student staus and alittle more relaxed and aware

[wmw999 2,166]

It was what everyone did before altimeters were de rigueur for everyone.

Jumpmasters told the students on the way up: "Look outside -- this is what 1000' looks like" etc. all the way up. If there were clouds around anywhere, we would always say where the base of the clouds were.

And I did all of my early freefalls without an altimeter; I wasn't allowed to do 15-sec delays without them however.

That said, I would not consider training an AFF student without an altimeter. It would be ridiculous.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sducoach 0]

When I teach partial panel I "simulate" instrument failure. When I teach emergency landings I "simulate" zero thrust.That does not mean I try to fly without an attitude indicator, altimerer, etc. or I shut down and feather an engine just to experience it. I teach how to react and maintain control when an instrument/engine fails through simulation so when it does happen you react with the proper actions. There is no relation to simulating an instrument/engine failure and having them there if you make a mistake, and trying to experience a true emergency is there? Should I have my students land with an engine shut down? Should I have single engine students land in a pasture? The reasoning behind leaving an altimeter behind does not hold water.

Guess altitude? Yes. but your chest mount is still there, you just cannot see it.

Help me here, I see no reason to jump without an altimeter. Look at the ground, read the altimeter, look at the ground read the altimeter, educate yourself through experience, don't guess so when it happens to you, as it did to me, you know what you are looking at, don't guess.

Blues,

J.E.
ATP, CFIMEI, CGI

James 4:8

[mikeat10500 10]

I did my first 18 jumps with no altimeter, all IAD's. I was the worst student(but thats another story). I got in the habit of looking at the ground from the aircraft
@ 2000'...thinking that ""the say you could jump from here". I now have a mental picture of a safe altitude to skydive from...burnt into my brain.
Now...when I get scared, and it does happen from time to time. I know my time sense goes to shit. The first thing I want to know is my altitude( read time to impact). The first thing I do is LOOK AT THE GROUND. It is very big and often easy to see. Then I confirm my altitude with my chestmount(if I can still see it). I just look at the ground and think high or low in reference to 2000'. How fast am I falling?
I think eyeballing is still a useful tool to some degree. A stiletto took me for a little ride after opening 3 days ago, I thought I might have to part with it soon and the first thing I did was look at the ground...I thought GREAT, I'm at 1500' over trees with a snotty (borrowed) canopy! My eyes were as big as footballs, I'm sure!( not that current yet). I then look at the altimeter and see 2000'...I thought...
"You PUSSY...calm down!" I fixed it fast......mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[sducoach 0]

Quote

I did my first 18 jumps with no altimeter, all IAD's.

That is how you Canadians are! Down here in the south 48 it is required for all students to have an altimeter, which makes the argument mute for students.

Quote

I got in the habit of looking at the ground from the aircraft
@ 2000'...thinking that ""the say you could jump from here". I now have a mental picture of a safe altitude to skydive from...burnt into my brain.

Mike, that is my point. You had the altimeter in the aircraft as a reference. You did not have the ability at 1 or 18 jumps to judge 2000' without it. Basis physiology and mechanics of our optical system.

Quote

I think eyeballing is still a useful tool to some degree.

Eyeballing is a great tool in every degree! And, we have to have a "frame of reference". That's what you started developing by looking at the aircraft altimeter. Great job!

I'm glad things worked our on the Stiletto!

Keep it safe and have fun!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[billvon 2,463]

>When I teach partial panel I "simulate" instrument failure.

So do you tell them not to look at the instrument, or do you cover it so they can't see it? If your argument is people should cover their altimeter with tape so they can't see it - I'd be fine with that.

>When I teach emergency landings I "simulate" zero thrust.

Do you tell them to pretend the left engine is out, and they're pushing hard right rudder? Or do you actually reduce power to an engine, and require them to fly the plane in a more dangerous flight regime?

>I teach how to react and maintain control when an instrument/engine
>fails through simulation so when it does happen you react with the
>proper actions.

I learned to fly in a slightly different way; maybe because I learned to fly a long time ago. When we had an engine-out drill the CFI would pull power and hold it off. To practice departure stalls, we stalled the plane. To practice spin recovery, I'd put the plane into a spin and recover. You can only do so much with simulation.

>There is no relation to simulating an instrument/engine failure and
> having them there if you make a mistake, and trying to experience a
> true emergency is there?

I've lost power in-flight for real, lost radios for real, and had mals (skydiving) for real - and, to me, simulation is decent practice, but doing it is a very different experience. I am glad that I had some 'real' practice before that happened.

>Should I have my students land with an engine shut down?

Have them land with no power. If the situation permits (i.e. you're in the pattern for a 13,000 foot runway) then heck, shut down the engine if you want - but that's not too important. The important thing is that they land without power available, not what state the engine is in.

>Should I have single engine students land in a pasture?

Heck yeah! Pick someplace that's full of grass and is legal to land in, and have them practice soft field landings and engine-out procedures. I did that and am a better pilot as a result.

[sducoach 0]

Now you are simply into arguments.

Quote

So do you tell them not to look at the instrument, or do you cover it so they can't see it? If your argument is people should cover their altimeter with tape so they can't see it - I'd be fine with that.

Yes I cover the instrument, go develop an altimeter cover that will stay on and can be thrown away in freefall if needed? I can uncover the attitude indicator at anytime in the aircraft. Sporty's sells great little covers or a soap holder with little suction cups on both sides works great.

Quote

Do you tell them to pretend the left engine is out, and they're pushing hard right rudder? Or do you actually reduce power to an engine, and require them to fly the plane in a more dangerous flight regime?

If you are a pilot you know what simulated and zero thrust are. Yes I use zero thrust and do fly the a/c in the "simulated condition of an emergency" so that if a problem occurs, i.e. bad choice or performance by the student, I can simply move the thrust lever forward and I have full performance. Kind of hard to put your altimeter back on in freefall if you need it isn't it?

Quote

I learned to fly in a slightly different way; maybe because I learned to fly a long time ago. When we had an engine-out drill the CFI would pull power and hold it off. To practice departure stalls, we stalled the plane. To practice spin recovery, I'd put the plane into a spin and recover. You can only do so much with simulation.

Started flying in 1971, started teaching in 1973. I taught everything you are indicating including spins. What is your point? Are we going to have an "I'm started first discussion"? It's now 30+ years later and the FAA determined that by doing actual spins you were placing some students into a potentially dangerous position and they changed the training program. We used to completely feather the critical engine, do a VMC recovery and re-start.
Advancement in training procedures and risk management?

Quote

I've lost power in-flight for real, lost radios for real, and had mals (skydiving) for real - and, to me, simulation is decent practice, but doing it is a very different experience. I am glad that I had some 'real' practice before that happened.

That's why we practice "simulated" to avoid the risk of a "real" emergency. Dude I've lost engines on single and multi-engine aircraft, lost radio's in actual conditions, landed off airport once, had three mals and I am here because I practiced procedures in a simulated condition. Did you go up and intentionally function your canopy and cut it away? Law of averages tells you a mistake will happen, want to make that mistake in simulated or actual conditions? I know you are an experienced skydiver and probably an experienced pilot, are you a flight instructor also?

Quote

Have them land with no power. If the situation permits (i.e. you're in the pattern for a 13,000 foot runway) then heck, shut down the engine if you want - but that's not too important. The important thing is that they land without power available, not what state the engine is in

Right. Simulated engine failure. Go ahead and shut down the the engine on a 13.000 runway, then tell the tower why you did so. And it is important whether or not your engine is running regardless of what your runway is. You can land in a zero thrust condition with the engine running.

Quote

Heck yeah! Pick someplace that's full of grass and is legal to land in, and have them practice soft field landings and engine-out procedures. I did that and am a better pilot as a result.

Other than a grass landing strip, where is it "legal" to land? Grass strips that we use are perfect for "soft field", "short field", "engine out" procedures. Why risk Farmer Nasty and an accident off airport?

Back to the question about altimeters and jumping without one. I ask again, why? Just to "experience it"? I care not to experience many things, sickness, death (at this time), pain, but we can and do train to deal with these don't we.

Bill I'm not going to argue with you. I know you are a great guy. I simply choose not to tempt Murphy any more than is required and to allow my students, skydiving and flying, to have the resources available, if needed, to verify their decisions during emergency procedures practice. A real differing attitude than what I'm hearing from you.

Brother, go teach, be safe, and Blue Skies.

J.E.

James 4:8

[billvon 2,463]

>Yes I cover the instrument, go develop an altimeter cover that
>will stay on and can be thrown away in freefall if needed?

Sure; duct tape works. Jumping without an altimeter also works.

>I taught everything you are indicating including spins. What is your
> point? Are we going to have an "I'm started first discussion"?

Not at all! I am just glad I learned to recover from a spin. I feel that a pilot who has recovered from a spin is better trained to recover from a spin than a pilot who has never recovered from a spin - even though a spin is a dangerous manuever.

>Did you go up and intentionally function your canopy and cut it away?

Yep - and that's something else I recommend doing. An intentional cutaway (with a tersh of course) is the best possible way to practice emergency procedures.

>Other than a grass landing strip, where is it "legal" to land?

In NY, we had Lufker, a legal grass strip that was essentially a pasture. It had a Farmer McNasty who lived nearby who would chase you off, so you had to be fast (he didn't own the field, he was just cranky.)

>Why risk Farmer Nasty and an accident off airport?

Because now I know how to take off and land on a soft field, and I know what big mounds of recently mowed grass will do to an airplane trying to take off. If I ever do have to land in a grass field I will be better prepared to do so.

>Back to the question about altimeters and jumping without one. I
> ask again, why? Just to "experience it"?

Same reason we have students go unstable and recover, despite the (very slight) chance they will get away from their AFF-JM's or have a premature deployment due to pin covers getting blown open. To show they can do it, and because actually doing things is the best possible practice.

Please keep in mind that I do not tell people they are worthless if they don't do some of the things I've done, nor do I tell them that they are essential. I simply recommend that some things (an intentional cutaway, a no-altimeter jump, doing a H/P without goggles, learning to flat turn at 50 feet) can increase their understanding of the sport, and give them experience that may help them later. Whether or not they do it is up to them.

[sducoach 0]

Blues Dude!

James 4:8

[freephlyer 0]

You wouldn't train a new driver to drive without an speedometer, why teach a student to jump without an altimeter.
When looking down from altitude a little phenomenom known as vertical compression comes in to play making it extremely difficult to judge distance. This can confuse and disorient a student leading to greater difficulties in the event of an emergency. What should be drilled into the students head is " TIMING " . Learn to set the bodies clock at exit. With belly flying this is quite simple to do as the fall rate is almost consistant jump after jump. Freeflying takes a bit more as fall rate will change throughout the dive as multiple body positions come into play. In time you WILL know when to turn and burn and to ultimately save your life.
As with anything in our lives it takes patience and an understanding of our goals to achieve a higher level. Skydiving is just that - levels. Start students out on the BOTTOM level so that they do understand and achieve the higher level.

[freakydiver 0]

"You wouldn't train a new driver to drive without an speedometer, why teach a student to jump without an altimeter."

Thats not entirely true. During a couple of racing instructional courses, we actually learned the courses with our speedometers taped off because learning what an approaching turn looks like 20 mph too fast is a great skill to posess.

Although, I would have to agree with you that its defintaley more of a timing issue when skydiving. My 50 second clock always goes off in my head on normal rw jumps and my 40 goes off in my head on sit fly jumps and the such.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[ifallout 0]

I will keep my wrist mount, and my audible, with me anytime I am skydiving. There is no logic whatsoever to thinking you should not have an altimeter with you while learning to judge what the ground looks like at a certain altitude.

And really how do you know if you were right or not if you are on your first few jumps? You would not have a reference point from which to compare.

Bill

have fun, love life, be nice to the humans

[billvon 2,463]

>There is no logic whatsoever to thinking you should not have an
>altimeter with you while learning to judge what the ground looks
>like at a certain altitude.

Definitely true. Jumping without an altimeter is something you shouldn't do until you can judge what the ground looks like at certain altitudes.

[JustPlainChic 0]

I believe in always planning for the worst and hoping for the best. When I was a student, I would have freaked if they had taken my altimeter. Students shouldn't focus on them too much but they should have them and use them correctly. Thats my$.02!

Laura "Belle"

'Blue Skies'

[Fast 0]

Haha, this thread getting bumped up was great...

What an interesting read. That said, I have forgot my alti, was like jump #30, I borrowed one from a coach on the plane, was more comfortable. I might just make a jump without one some day.

There is a guy at my dz who can judge alt almost as good as an alti with just eyes. I don't think I have ever seen him jump one.

It was even sugested that I make a hop n pop w/ no goggles cause there really is no need an then I will know what its like.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Chrisky 0]

That question (Alti or not) came up at my home DZ a few years back.

A _very_ experienced jumper said, that people nowadays are all too much relying on any technology (including mechanical-barometrical altimeters) than their common sense and their gut feeling.
He said he would without a doubt jump from a plane without an alti and deploy within a range of +/- 100 m of his normal deployment altitude. (We didn't ask him to prove that...).

I do agree that this is possible though and have jumped myself without a baro on a three way(I forgot mine, but my buddies had, was a rush due to resheduled refuel), no problem.
Although i think it takes the experience of a number of jumps to get in tune at a certain DZ, and it should for sure not become a habit.

BUT i don't see a reason why one should NEVER jump without an altimeter.

So i agree with AggieDave,

Quote

eyes and your internal clock are first

On students it could be a measure like the low-alti-jump. Haven't heard of a DZ doing that, tho.
(and wonder if any student looks at his alti on a low-alti jump anyway...)

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[kallend 1,672]

Quote

>

Not at all! I am just glad I learned to recover from a spin. I feel that a pilot who has recovered from a spin is better trained to recover from a spin than a pilot who has never recovered from a spin - even though a spin is a dangerous manuever.

.

The overwhelmig majority of inadvertant spins occur in the pattern, at an altitude from which recovery is impossible anyway.

From a safety point of view, training time is better spent on spin avoidance than on spin recovery.

However, spins are fun and safe to perform at altitude in an appropriately rated plane. I used to spin my old Cherokee (at a safe altitude) and I've also deliberately spun a glider. My Mooney is clearly placarded against spins, and I don't intend to find out why the hard way.

I don't for one moment suppose that, despite having practised spin recovery, I would survive an inadvertant spin when turning from base to final in my plane.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,672]

It's not clear to me that eyeballing altitude transfers well to unfamiliar locations.

I can eyeball quite well at my home airport and home DZ, both in the agricultural/rural midwest. When I've been at places in the high desert or mountain regions I find that the visual clues are quite different and it takes a while to get accustomed to them. I would never attempt a landing at Los Alamos, NM (alt. 7272, sloping runway located on the edge of a cliff) without altimeter, and preferably the VASI too, because the right glide path looks all wrong to my eyes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[deronde 0]

Quote

I just don't see why anyone needs to be in free fall or under canopy without an altimeter. That just doesn't make sense to me in the least. It goes back to "teach a student how to skydive". From the first static line jump I went on, one of the first things I was taught was that there is essential gear for a skydive.

I totally agree! I would not get on an airplane with the intention of diving out of it at any altitude what so ever without an altimeter. No matter what any coach, trainer or anyone says...

Learning to skydive without an altimeter is like learning to drive a car without a speedometer...

[winsor 187]

Quote

It's not clear to me that eyeballing altitude transfers well to unfamiliar locations.

I can eyeball quite well at my home airport and home DZ, both in the agricultural/rural midwest. When I've been at places in the high desert or mountain regions I find that the visual clues are quite different and it takes a while to get accustomed to them. I would never attempt a landing at Los Alamos, NM (alt. 7272, sloping runway located on the edge of a cliff) without altimeter, and preferably the VASI too, because the right glide path looks all wrong to my eyes.

Yeah, that and the go-around procedure involves flying some distance through granite.

It's been a while since I've flow into Los Alamos, so I don't recall whether there was a VASI. I would, however, land there without an altimeter.

Since I started out on static line, I didn't wear an altimeter until I had maybe 25 jumps (most of them military).

I don't like jumping without an altimeter, since I like opening higher than waiting for the onset of ground rush allows. I also find that I'm not as good at guessing altitudes as I'd like to be.

The good side is that I almost always err on the high side. I'll occasionally be at pattern altitude and it will feel like I'm a lot lower, or I'll be cruising at breakoff altitude and it seems like maybe two thirds of that.

I check my altimeter before chopping. For some reason, with a bad parachute overhead the ground seems up close and personal.

Then again, when I got my commercial license the instructor covered the whole panel so I would learn to get my head out of the cockpit and fly the airplane, so there may be some merit to learning to jump without an altimeter.

When making naked jumps I wear an altimeter, so I suppose I'm device-dependent enough to prefer an altimeter to a jumpsuit.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[billvon 2,463]

>Learning to skydive without an altimeter is like learning to drive a car
>without a speedometer...

Agreed. But if you can't drive _at_all_ without a speedometer, a relatively minor mechanical failure could kill you. Therefore it's worth learning how to judge your speed by other traffic, engine noise etc. so you can drive home if your speedometer breaks enroute.

[AdD 1]

As an IAD student on the verge of freefall it kinda pisses me off that I didn't have an alti on my jumps to date. I'm the worst judge of altitude ever, always spin too low. It would have been nice to start saying to myself, this is 4000, 1000, 500 etc while under canopy. That's Canada for you.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[winsor 187]

Quote

Quote

I just don't see why anyone needs to be in free fall or under canopy without an altimeter. That just doesn't make sense to me in the least. It goes back to "teach a student how to skydive". From the first static line jump I went on, one of the first things I was taught was that there is essential gear for a skydive.

I totally agree! I would not get on an airplane with the intention of diving out of it at any altitude what so ever without an altimeter. No matter what any coach, trainer or anyone says...

Learning to skydive without an altimeter is like learning to drive a car without a speedometer...

FWIW, Indy cars don't tend to have speedometers. Boost gauge and tach, but that's about it.

I have on more than one occasion found myself in freefall with an altimeter that did not work as advertised. It was no big deal, and did not interfere with the skydive (I didn't die as a result, either).

In aviation there is a paradox wherein you must A) trust your instruments and B) disregard those instruments that turn up inop. There is a fine line between using any particular system and being dependent upon it. Fixating on something when it goes South can be fatal, no matter how comparatively inconsequential the problem.

One of the most important parts of emergency procedures is to have them drilled such that they're second-nature. When you have a malfunction, the difference between saying "oh, God! What do I do now?" and "ah, shit! Time to start yanking handles!" can be the difference between a bad incident report and just another NSTIWTIWGTD story.

Go through as many "what if?" scenarios as you can, and pay attention to the experience of people who have had either good or bad luck - and learn to differentiate between luck and skill. Having said that, I'd rather be lucky than good.


Blue skies,

Winsor