USPA Individual Members Please assist.

[Luminous 0]

Quote

Sorry you had such a bad time at WTS

I answered your PM about the rest but I wanted to make it clear that:

The way your post were worded didn't suggest the facilities, it suggested training.

And that I had a GREAT time. I wasn't the one landing hard. Fun DZ, Fun people.

BSBD
Larry

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[chriswelker 0]

The United States Parachute Association is a not-for-profit association dedicated to promoting the safe enjoyment of skydiving.

USPA's Regular Members form the core of the Association's membership base. They include active skydivers, former skydivers, and others who support the sport.

Benefits:
Monthly copy of Parachutist magazine
Third-party liability property damage and bodily injury skydiving insurance
Rental car discounts
Eligibility to apply for accidental death and dismemberment insurance
Eligibility to apply for life insurance
Eligibility to apply for the USPA credit card
Eligibility to participate in all USPA license, rating, and awards programs
Eligibility to purchase USPA demonstration jump insurance
Eligibility to participate in USPA-sanctioned competitions
Eligibility to participate in skydiving world records

On the other side of the Batcave,
The Group Member Program was established to foster a business and professional relationship between USPA and skydiving clubs, centers and schools in order to strengthen the unity within the skydiving community and to enhance the growth of the sport. The main beneficiary of this unity is the individual skydiver, who will receive better training, jump in a safer environment, and be better served by the association which supports the skydiver's interests.

Following is a full list of the benefits of USPA Group Membership:

Eligibility to sell the USPA 45-Day Temporary Individual Membership.

Eligibility to participate in the Voluntary Courtesy Inspection Program (VCIP)

Affiliation with USPA

Parachutist Listing

Drop Zone Directory Listing

USPA Logo Use

Online Database Access

Government Relations Presence

Government Relations Assistance

E-mail Reports

AAD Fund Use

Participation in the DZO Conference

Jump Pilot Orientation

Pilot and Airport Management Assistance

Parachutist DZ Events Listing

Each Group Member pays an initial registration fee its first year of membership and annual dues each subsequent year. Group Members will be classified as:

CAT 1 (skydiving operations that use military aircraft or clubs that are located on and use aircraft of an established skydiving center which is itself a Group Member;

CAT 2 (small centers or schools that operate routinely with not more than two small aircraft, each weighing less than 6,000 pounds; or, professional skydiving schools which do not operate a DZ or own aircraft) and;

CAT 3 (large centers that operate routinely with more than two small aircraft or one or more aircraft larger than 6,000 pounds). Foreign DZs are recognized as CAT 1 Group Members. The dues schedule is as follows:


CAT 1 CAT 2 CAT 3
Initial $200 $300 $600
Renewal $100 $200 $400


I still am looking in USPA documents to find some evidence where the Group Membership Committee has control of the rating programs and how and where they are conducted.

Hosting or conducting a rating course of any type is not a written BENEFIT precieved or not.

The Group Membership put forth a motion (#33 Winter 2001 BOD meeting) that makes USPA individual members pay a sur charge for a program that they don't even have jurisdiction over that is what the REAL issue is here.

Blue Ones,
Chris Welker
D-19678

[diverdriver 5]

Chris, did the full BOD not have to vote on whether this policy was instituted or not? If yes then the Safety and Training committe by virtue of voting on it already voiced their concern. They could have debated it and protested at that time. Did they?

If there was no full BOD debate and vote then I think you do have a point.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[gjhdiver 0]

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A group of USPA individual members want to hold a Coach rating course at West Tennessee Skydiving Oct. 25-26, 2003. Andy Anderson contacted Bram Clement to conduct the course and Bram agreed.

Snip.

Forget it. You want to play at skydiver and do USPA sanctioned courses to hand out USPA ratings, using a USPA course director and examiners ? Join USPA, or pay up, or quit whining.

[chriswelker 0]

I am a member of the USPA, I am a S&TA, a current AFF and Tandem Instructor and I pay $69 per year to belong to this Club a.k.a. USPA, thank you very much.

Individual USPA members shouldn't be penalized for jumping at or supporting a non- Group Member DZ
that chooses ( for whatever reasons) not to be a USPA GM.


Blue Ones,
Chris Welker
D-19678

[rjf98 0]

The members aren't really being penalized... while it may appear that way. The GM DZs are being rewarded for being GMs.

Why should a DZ that voluntarily pays it's dues be cheated out of money it could make from the coaches course?

Maybe I'm missing something... maybe there isn't a GM DZ within 300 miles or something. Perhaps then the class could petition USPA for some sort of waiver on this fee.

The petition needs to come from the individual members taking the course, not the DZO that doesn't want to play. That fact is that the DZO stands to make more money by having more coaches. He stands to make money from having the course at his DZ. Since the coaches and the trainers all sport USPA credentials, don't you think USPA should support it's GM DZ program and toss back a bone to them before it allows some non GM DZ to take in the dough?

[jlmiracle 7]

Just one more thing, just found this and was wondering how you would interpet it?

on the DZO INCOMING bulletin for USPA Group Members, Dated August 1, 2003 (on uspa's website)

5th paragraph down, "Properly Rated Staff".
.....Drop Zone owners, S&TAs and USPA Instructors are remined that the BSR's are in place for individual member of the USPA to follow regardess of the location of the skydiving operation....

So as this reads, a group member dropzone does not have to follow the bsr's but individual members do? So if a group member dropzone has instructors that aren't following the rules only the instructors are penelized and not the gm dropzone, but gm dz reaps all the benefits of having those instructors.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[buzzfink 5]

Not correct. As part of being a USPA Group Member, you must sign a pledge to, among other things, abide by the BSR's.


Buzz

[jlmiracle 7]

By joining the USPA aren't we all saying we will abide by the "rules".

JUdy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[tictoc 0]

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By joining the USPA aren't we all saying we will abide by the "rules".

JUdy

Yes we are. And as the rules state a non USPA DZ must pay to have a USPA class heald at their DZ. I think what the artical is trying to inforce is that as a individual member you need to make sure that you are doing what you have agread to do and that a DZ or S&TA (who might have made a mistake in telling you some thing) can not forse you to break the BSR's. Some ppl don't even bother to read the "rules" they rely on others to inturpret them for them.
Sorry to hear that you will have to pay more because your DZ is not a member. But I don't think that it is unfair. I do however think it would be unfair if I paid my dews so that a DZ that didn't want to pay could benifit from what I and other DZ's pay for.
It is like going and getting insurance affter you had an acedent and geting them to cover it than canceling the policy. Just my thoughts though.

--------------------------------------------------------
Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[drakeshelby 0]

I am a skydiver at WTS and I am one of the ones that initiated the interest in becoming qualified to jump with students at our drop zone. I am also a memeber of the USPA and follow their rules; but to make me pay more for a coaches course just because the place that I call my HOME DROP ZONE is not a USPA Memeber Dropzone is a crime and a rip off. I want to know what I get for paying the extra fee? From my point of view as an individual USPA Member; whether you are a Drop Zone that is a USPA Member or not, making the individual members pay more to attain one of the USPA ratings is BLACKMAIL!!!!!


drake shelby

drakeshelby

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Quote

By joining the USPA aren't we all saying we will abide by the "rules".

JUdy

Yes we are. And as the rules state a non USPA DZ must pay to have a USPA class heald at their DZ. I think what the artical is trying to inforce is that as a individual member you need to make sure that you are doing what you have agread to do and that a DZ or S&TA (who might have made a mistake in telling you some thing) can not forse you to break the BSR's. Some ppl don't even bother to read the "rules" they rely on others to inturpret them for them.
Sorry to hear that you will have to pay more because your DZ is not a member. But I don't think that it is unfair. I do however think it would be unfair if I paid my dews so that a DZ that didn't want to pay could benifit from what I and other DZ's pay for.
It is like going and getting insurance affter you had an acedent and geting them to cover it than canceling the policy. Just my thoughts though.

Instructor/coach ratings are a individual membership benefits, not a group member benefit, so they should not be able to dictate what it costs.

The group membership committee, NOT the safety and training committee brought up these "fees", Ratings and their courses are covered by the Safety and Training committee, not the Group Membership Committee, so it appears the Group Membership Committee over stepped their bounds by bringing Motion #33 to the table.

Hell if you get a rating and jump at a group member dz and break a rule, it appears, by that bulletin, that only instructor is penalized and not the dropzone, even though the DZ signed a pledge to abide by the rules.

I see a double standard here.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[bmcd308 0]

I'm also a skydiver at WTS, and the whole point behind all this is that back in the day, more experienced jumpers who were not interested in becoming "official" instructors would be kind enough to take the new people on jumps before we had an A. As an AFF graduate, I sometimes paid slots for these people, and sometimes I did not. Mostly I did not. They taught me how to skydive, and I appreciate it. Now, I'd like to get out of the plane and fall straight down (no jokes from those of you who know me) so that a guy with 10 jumps can practice moving side to side, controlling fall rate, etc. But I can't. Essentially, the new guys are in a position of having to jump with AFF Instructors (who are busy) or do solos for 25 jumps. The reason we want the coach course is to try to increase retention of AFF grads by showing them that jumping with other people is fun. 18 solos is a lot to ask someone to do before they can jump with a group. And 18 solos does not teach them nearly as much as they would have learned had other people been working with them all that time.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[Ron 7]

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but to make me pay more for a coaches course just because the place that I call my HOME DROP ZONE is not a USPA Memeber Dropzone is a crime and a rip off.

No, it is the organizations right to only hold courses at locations that have pledged to follow the BSR's...WTS has not, and does not follow ALL the BSR's (Young kids jumping comes to mind).

So the USPA has the right to not hold a course, or choose to charge more.

Quote

I want to know what I get for paying the extra fee?

You are getting the right to have a USPA course held at a NON USPA GM DZ. A GM DZ has the right to hold courses..A NON USPA DZ does not. But the USPA will let you have one. You just have to pay more...It is their right.

Quote

From my point of view as an individual USPA Member; whether you are a Drop Zone that is a USPA Member or not, making the individual members pay more to attain one of the USPA ratings is BLACKMAIL!!!!!

Its not blackmail since you don't NEED the USPA course to work at that DZ...The DZ is not a group member so they don't need to have USPA approved anything. So your DZ is the the one making you get the course to work there..they don't have to do that. They are free to let you jump with first jump students if they want....They don't have to follow BSR's

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

I also did my first jump at WTS.

All that you wrote is true.

But since WTS is NOT a Group Member DZ. You don't have to have a coach or Instructor rating to jump with a guy with 10 jumps.

Hell you can teach first jump students. The FAR's have no requirments for you to have gone to ANY USPA classes.

The DZ is making you, but they don't have to.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

But Ron, if you look at my post above and checked out the DZO Bulletin from August, they pulled rating and memberships for "illegal" student jumps, regardless of location. So if we want to keep our individual membership we have to follow the rules.

Example: I have an AFF rating. If I disregard the BSR's, say at a group member dropzone my rating and membership can be pulled, but it appears, according to that bulletin, only the individuals were penalized, not the dropzone.

Hypothetical situation: Let's say the USPA decides okay, we will penalize (fine) the gm dz's for violating BSR's (usually violated by a jumper). All I see happening is the DZ dropping its Group membership and not paying the fine. I am assuming all that has been taken into consideration by the USPA, which is why Group Member DZ's are not penalized.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

Ok so you can not violate BSR's...You are a voulantary member of an organization. You are held to the organizations rules...Both types of membership individual AND Group.

Drop your individual membership, and jump at WTS and you can do whatever you want so long as you don't violate FAR's.

Or keep your individual membership, and jump where ever you want, but you will have to abide by the BSR's....even at Non USPA DZ's.

Just like USPA DZ's can't let a non USPA member jump there, much less teach there.

Either membership requires you to follow the BSR's.

Whats hard to understand about that?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[drakeshelby 0]

So what is the extra money for; PROFIT for the USPA? This issue should be focused on the individuals taking the course not where it is being held. What I find odd is that the ones that have a problem with this; more than likely at some point in their sky diving career have jumped out of the KING AIR that flyes at WTS. They never questioned the BSR's then, so why penalyze individuals who want to attain more ratings and contribute to the USPA by having to pay rating dues along with license dues by charging them more for the course? It makes absolutely no sense to charge more. This makes them ; the USPA, look bad, when they could hold a course at a great facility and attain more people on their side by getting them the ratings. It is a win win situation for both sides!!!!

drakeshelby

[Ron 7]

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So what is the extra money for; PROFIT for the USPA?

The USPA is not for Profit.

Does it matter? You want to go to the old Memphis State you paid for the right to have the classes. Even if you took them from home via the internet.

You are paying for the rights to use the materials. They waive some of that cost if the DZ is a group member.

Don't think of it as paying a premium at a NON USPA DZ..Think of it as gettinga discount at a USPA DZ...

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What I find odd is that the ones that have a problem with this; more than likely at some point in their sky diving career have jumped out of the KING AIR that flyes at WTS. They never questioned the BSR's then,

I never question the BSR's. They were written in blood. However since you don't have to follow the BSR's to skydive in the US, and there is no Individual requirement to only jump at USPA DZ, I am free as a member of the USPA to jump where I like as long as I don't violate BSR's. so your argument is way off.

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so why penalyze individuals who want to attain more ratings and contribute to the USPA by having to pay rating dues along with license dues by charging them more for the course?

Who is penalyzing you? The DZ that is not a group member is. You don't have to send the USPA your money and they don't...So you can not join the USPA and do as you damn well please...Look at Mike and the kids jumping. Perfectly legal. And since both are not USPA members so the USPA has nothing to say about it.

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This makes them ; the USPA, look bad,

Or it could make WTS look bad since they don't want to join the USPA? Why not join?


You seem to think its WTS and you vs the USPA.....Its not. Its WTS vs. USPA. And you have every right to have a course. But, WTS does not have every right to hold a course. After all they are NOT members of the USPA. Why should the USPA help them? Hazen is 2 hrs away, and there are hundreds of other DZ's that have courses so you can still take the course.

The problem is you want to have a USPA course at a NON USPA DZ....And they will let you, but you have to pay a fee. It is their right.

Otherwise you can go to a USPA DZ and have a course there...And then the USPA DZ gets moey, which is one of th ways the USPA supports group member DZ's.

Having the ability to hold a USPA course is one of the benefits of being a USPA GM.

WTS is not so why let them? Im surprized the USPA will even let a non USPA DZ hold a USPZ course...

Would you feel better if they didn't let you have a course no matter what? They have that right as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

But Ron, if you look at my post above and checked out the DZO Bulletin from August, they pulled rating and memberships for "illegal" student jumps, regardless of location. So if we want to keep our individual membership we have to follow the rules.

That is enforced on a case-by-case basis. I have video of a DZO doing AFF w/o an AFF rating. The RD said, "What do you want me to do, take away a rating he doesn't have?" That RD is now a ND.................

Derek

[tictoc 0]

Quote

I am a skydiver at WTS and I am one of the ones that initiated the interest in becoming qualified to jump with students at our drop zone. I am also a memeber of the USPA and follow their rules; but to make me pay more for a coaches course just because the place that I call my HOME DROP ZONE is not a USPA Memeber Dropzone is a crime and a rip off. I want to know what I get for paying the extra fee? From my point of view as an individual USPA Member; whether you are a Drop Zone that is a USPA Member or not, making the individual members pay more to attain one of the USPA ratings is BLACKMAIL!!!!!


drake shelby

Unfortunatly I do agrea with you all that you should not have to pay for the course. Unfortunatly it is not your falt nor is it the uspa's. It is not black mail that because my DZO is able to see thiese benifits and is willing to cover thouse costs for me so that I do not have to. And unfortunatly for the ppl who jump at your DZ. Your DZO doe's not see thies benifits and is not willing to cover the costs for you. As I see it you have 6 choices: you can travel to another dz, you can pay the extra cost, you can try to get your DZ to cover the cost, you can get your DZ to becom a member, you can drop your membership and just fallow the FAR's and jump with who you want to or you can not help out your fellow upandcomming skydivers. Non of wich do I see that you are forced to do. You have plenty of choices some of them are just not as good as others.

--------------------------------------------------------
Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[PhreeZone 15]

At the same time that there is this issue how should the USPA handle situations that involve any type of classes off a DZ? I know for a fact that a DZ held AFF-I classes off a DZ last year and they did'nt have to pay an additional fee to get the new location a Group Membership.

I think how they got around this was by getting the program "sponsored" by a GM DZ. If there is enough interest at other DZ's in the local area offer up your facilites and have a GM "sponsor" the class with the location to be at a different location. I know a RD did it like that last year...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[buzzfink 5]

Quote

By joining the USPA aren't we all saying we will abide by the "rules".

JUdy

Yes. But also by Joining as a GM, the business is also signing a pledge to abide by the BSR's.


Buzz

[chriswelker 0]

Ron you are WRONG! The USPA rating programs are not a a benefit of being a GM DZ. It is a benefit to the individual membership. If you are able to produce evidence of it being written in any USPA manuel, document or contract, I'll will say that you are not WRONG!

If you would read the USPA Govenance Manual page 70 and then the Group Membership program introduction letter (on the USPA web site) that lists completly ALL of the benefits of becoming a GM you will also realize that you are WRONG!

By the way Ron Hill, how can you get from Memphis, Tn. to Hazen, Ar. in 1 hour? I drove from Little Rock, Ar. yesterday passing through Hazen and it took me over and hour just to get to West Memphis, Ar. going 90 m.p.h.from Hazen. I guess you must have been in you Buzz Lightyear spaceship when you clocked it.

Blue Ones,
Chris Welker

[chriswelker 0]

Being reposted for the reading and learning benefit of Ron Hill.

The United States Parachute Association is a not-for-profit association dedicated to promoting the safe enjoyment of skydiving.

USPA's Regular Members form the core of the Association's membership base. They include active skydivers, former skydivers, and others who support the sport.

Benefits:
Monthly copy of Parachutist magazine
Third-party liability property damage and bodily injury skydiving insurance
Rental car discounts
Eligibility to apply for accidental death and dismemberment insurance
Eligibility to apply for life insurance
Eligibility to apply for the USPA credit card
Eligibility to participate in all USPA license, rating, and awards programs
Eligibility to purchase USPA demonstration jump insurance
Eligibility to participate in USPA-sanctioned competitions
Eligibility to participate in skydiving world records

On the other side of the Batcave,

The Group Member Program was established to foster a business and professional relationship between USPA and skydiving clubs, centers and schools in order to strengthen the unity within the skydiving community and to enhance the growth of the sport. The main beneficiary of this unity is the individual skydiver, who will receive better training, jump in a safer environment, and be better served by the association which supports the skydiver's interests.

Following is a full list of the benefits of USPA Group Membership:

Eligibility to sell the USPA 45-Day Temporary Individual Membership.

Eligibility to participate in the Voluntary Courtesy Inspection Program (VCIP)

Affiliation with USPA

Parachutist Listing

Drop Zone Directory Listing

USPA Logo Use

Online Database Access

Government Relations Presence

Government Relations Assistance

E-mail Reports

AAD Fund Use

Participation in the DZO Conference

Jump Pilot Orientation

Pilot and Airport Management Assistance

Parachutist DZ Events Listing

Each Group Member pays an initial registration fee its first year of membership and annual dues each subsequent year. Group Members will be classified as:

CAT 1 (skydiving operations that use military aircraft or clubs that are located on and use aircraft of an established skydiving center which is itself a Group Member;

CAT 2 (small centers or schools that operate routinely with not more than two small aircraft, each weighing less than 6,000 pounds; or, professional skydiving schools which do not operate a DZ or own aircraft) and;

CAT 3 (large centers that operate routinely with more than two small aircraft or one or more aircraft larger than 6,000 pounds). Foreign DZs are recognized as CAT 1 Group Members. The dues schedule is as follows:


CAT 1 CAT 2 CAT 3
Initial $200 $300 $600
Renewal $100 $200 $400


I still am looking in USPA documents to find some evidence where the Group Membership Committee has control of the rating programs and how and where they are conducted.

Hosting or conducting a rating course of any type is not a written BENEFIT precieved or not.

The Group Membership put forth a motion (#33 Winter 2001 BOD meeting) that makes USPA individual members pay a sur charge for a program that they don't even have jurisdiction over that is what the REAL issue is here.

Blue Ones,
Chris Welker
D-19678