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AggieDave

Demo jumps with tandems

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I'm confused, I thought the Golden Knights were the only ones in the US able to do demos using tandem systems. I thought if you did that and you weren't them, you'd pretty much loose your rating.

However, it seems that I've seen a good handful of demos using tandem systems lately. Could someone explain this to me in greater detail please?


edit: changed the name of the thread so it was more clear of a title.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Dave, you need to get a waiver from the USPA Board, not a hard process, but sometimes it is like dealing with any of the red tape that goes with demos nowadays. This year went much easier than last years, luckily the president of USPA (Glen) went with us last year and was supporting our application of waiver. So, yes they can be done, but you do have a process to go through. Oh, the jump usaully ends up be the easiest piece of the process.
blue skies,

art

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Section 2-1 BSR's (SIM)
J. Extraordinary Skydives
3. Demonstration jumps into level 2 areas require a D license with a USPA PRO Rating for all jumpers, including both tandem jump participants.
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I'm just regurgitating the SIM, certainly no expert!

__________________________________________

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Ok, I knew about the SIM stuff, what I was really talking about was the manufacture requirements. I was thinking RWS (since that's what I'm rated for).

Sorry I didn't state it that way in my original post.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Dave,

A year ago last July 4th we received a waiver from RWS to do a demo into the biggest fireworks display in SW Missouri. This occured one week prior to the FAA moving tandems off of the dual canopy waiver.

At this point I would still contact and work with RWS along with USPA and the local FISDO and indicate the tandem on the 7711.

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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I have personally been waivered to do a tandem jump with a whuffo into the Homestead racetrack for the IRL opening race last spring. The TSA pulled the clearance for the jump at the last minute for reasons not related to skydiving. Nothing was allowed to fly within 2 miles of a stadium for while.
You have to jump thru a few hoops with the USPA and FAA but it can be done.
I have 2000 tandems and 9000+ skydives and the conditions were very specific. A practice jump had to be made with the passenger and the fee(that we were being paid by the promoter) had to be non refundable if we cancelled due to weather/winds.
It can be done if you have the credentials. I dont think just anyone could get the waiver.
Mark Schlatter, a professional demo skydiver did all the arrangements. I was his his hired gun.

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This got me thinking about something funny.
The landing area for my demo was the grass strip between the pit wall and the front straight. Not too hard with the winds right but still a high pressure jump. All the cars would be on the track waiting for the start.
Can you imagine (I did) landing on one of the cars?
"Excuse me Mr Andretti, sorry about your car!"
On the other hand if I really screwed up and hit the grandstands it wouldnt have even made the papers cause there were almost no spectators to hit! :D

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Ok, I knew about the SIM stuff, what I was really talking about was the manufacture requirements. I was thinking RWS



I think you'll find many people do not hold to that requirement any longer, and the FAR's have changed making Tandem skydiving not an experimental activity any longer.

The SIM clearly state that both passenger, and instructor must meet the requirements of the demo. (I.E. Open field demo=both must have a "D" license)

The USPA has apparently taken over as the rating/regulatory body for tandem skydiving, and manufactures (at least from what I've experienced from RWS) want to be done with it. Too much headache, and liability.

It's a moot point now, but I always wondered about people who used a tandem rig for flag jumps prior to the FAR change. Were they breaking the rules if they did not have a waiver from RWS?
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>but I always wondered about people who used a tandem rig for flag jumps prior to the FAR change.

I did that a few times, and from my understanding a tandem rig is simply a normal, TSOed skydiving rig when used without a passenger. You can attach whatever you want to it; it's still just a regular rig (until it's used with a passenger.) In fact we had a modified tandem rig we used for Terry, our 300 lb pilot, when he wanted to jump.

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; it's still just a regular rig (until it's used with a passenger.)



I thought it was just the opposite. That using any of the tandem system on a jump was considered a tandem jump. Also, that there were special considerations made when using a modified rig for AFF.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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"
The SIM clearly state that both passenger, and instructor must meet the requirements of the demo. (I.E. Open field demo=both must have a "D" license)
"


USPA gave us a waiver for that but here's something interesting: They said the total tandem wing loading couldnt exceed my PRO rating wing loading.
Since I got my PRO rating at over 1.5/1 it wasnt an issue.

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You are correct. When jumping the RWS tandem system either with or without a passenger it is still considered a tandem jump and must abide by the Manufacturers reccomendations as well as USPA. as stated previously, Both the passenger as well as the Tanedm instructor must have the appropriate ratings to do certain demos. Small demo areas the TI and passenger have to be PRO rated. The only People who were given the permission to do stadium jumps with tandems was the Army Parachute Team and they declined to ever attempt a stadium jump with a tandem due to common sense.
"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

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***Both the passenger as well as the Tanedm instructor must have the appropriate ratings to do certain demos. Small demo areas the TI and passenger have to be PRO rated.

Quote

Not if you get it waivered. Don't talk in absolutes unless you're absolutely sure about what you're talking about.

***The only People who were given the permission to do stadium jumps with tandems was the Army Parachute Team and they declined to ever attempt a stadium jump with a tandem due to common sense.

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I would not take a tandem in to the stadium, but that is simply a personal decision because I don't feel that I have done enough tandems to be qualified. There are people however who are entirely qualified and able to do it safely. Maybe the Army parachute team hasn't done it because they don't have anyone competent enough to pull it off.

John Wright

Member of highly lauded and enormously successful
"The Art of Skydiving" demonstration team.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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I got my original PRO card under a StarTrac 1, but later completed the qualifications under as small as my old H-Mod Cobalt 75 and as large as the Sigma Tandem System. Every member of the GK tandem section trains to that standard, right here at Raeford. The poster "DalaiLama" is a member of the GK tandem section and a former member of the GK style and accuracy team as well as the former National Sport Accuracy Champion.

All I have to say to Art is "you da man" and "your nuts are bigger than mine." I have been into many a bowl stadium under a "proper" demo main, and even stuck an old Bogy 175 into The All American Bowl at Legion Field in Birmingham, AL one time (with 13 other guys), but man, sticking a Sigma in a bowl is bad-ass. My question to you guys is were there cables all the way across the bowl where they hoist the field goal net up? When I jumped into FedEx field in DC, those cables made for a steep sink in order to step down on the Indian Head.

Chuck

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All I have to say to Art is "you da man" and "your nuts are bigger than mine." I have been into many a bowl stadium under a "proper" demo main, and even stuck an old Bogy 175 into The All American Bowl at Legion Field in Birmingham, AL one time (with 13 other guys), but man, sticking a Sigma in a bowl is bad-ass. My question to you guys is were there cables all the way across the bowl where they hoist the field goal net up? When I jumped into FedEx field in DC, those cables made for a steep sink in order to step down on the Indian Head.



Chuck, yes there is a wire for the net behind the goal posts so you have one of two options, and I have done both in my three jumps in Alltel. One is to sit in brakes over the wire until you can't take it anymore, hold it another couple seconds and then make your move. Although this only works if there is some wind in the stadium, now that it has been bowled in, it is not as easy. The second option is even scarier, but actually works better on no wind days. Running along the wire in brakes until you get really scared, then let up on the outside toggle, swoop in across the field, bury the brakes and pray.:o

I do have a question for you though. Rusty Vest once told me he thought the heat from the people in the stadium yelling caused a noticiable updraft and causes you to float. I really feel it under the Sigma, more so than the other canopies I have jumped into stadiums. Your experience/opinion?
blue skies,

art

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I got my original PRO card under a StarTrac 1, but later completed the qualifications under as small as my old H-Mod Cobalt 75 and as large as the Sigma Tandem System. Every member of the GK tandem section trains to that standard, right here at Raeford. The poster "DalaiLama" is a member of the GK tandem section and a former member of the GK style and accuracy team as well as the former National Sport Accuracy Champion.

It was not my intention to question the quals of any GK member, I have no problem what so ever with them, in fact, we have a former member on our team. They are skydivers just like the rest of us. I was merely responding to someone's broad brush painting of doing tandems into stadiums as lacking common sense. If you're not qualified to do them or you don't feel like you want to do them then don't, we however have a tandem master that is competent, capable, and is comfortable doing them.

***My question to you guys is were there cables all the way across the bowl where they hoist the field goal net up? When I jumped into FedEx field in DC, those cables made for a steep sink in order to step down on the Indian Head.

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Those cables are about 10 ft behind the goal posts and run to the bottom of the 2nd deck(about 40 ft over the field). These cables have never been a problem because we enter the stadium forward of them and then never fly beyond them. We had additional cables to deal with on this jump however because ESPN had this camera that could be positioned anywhere over the field. It was supported by cables that ran to the top of the lights in the 4 corners of the stadium. They disconnected one corner for us and positioned the camera all the way into the opposite corner, this essentially left us with a clear path in and around to land on one side of the field. The ESPN guy was very helpful.


John Wright

Member of the highly lauded and enormously successful "The Art of Skydiving" demonstration team.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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Dave,

A year ago last July 4th we received a waiver from RWS to do a demo into the biggest fireworks display in SW Missouri. This occured one week prior to the FAA moving tandems off of the dual canopy waiver.

At this point I would still contact and work with RWS along with USPA and the local FISDO and indicate the tandem on the 7711.

Blues,

J.E.



***

That is what I was wondering..

Can the Manufacturer give you problems if you do a Tandem Demo?
Getting the proper certification from the USPA board will cover
that regulatory and insurance issues...
but could the company making the rig screw-up your certs?

We used to do tandems all the time into Air Shows...
circa 1985...but then the rules changed,
and it was getting to be a logistical nightmare anyway, because of the
'status' of being delivered into the show that way...

A couple of times we arrived at a particular show, to be told by the
promoter that "HE" had promised about 15 'rides' into the program
to various VIP's he was indebted to...[:/]

One of my best was taking this little blonde bombshell named "Kitty" :ph34r:
who was a morning F.M. radio DJ...
into the opening of the Air Show, she was in a black leather 'Cat-Suit' :P
and did a live broadcast for her listeners via cell phone!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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A brilliant job, John. Oh, and I was only saying who Greg was so that people would understand where he is coming from (since he doesn't really say in his profile). Neither he nor I would call a qualified PRO rated tandem instructor/demonstrator as lacking in common sense for doing that jump. Hell, I would do it and I know for sure that he would/could do it as well.

The paperwork drill required to perform different demonstrations is fascinating to me. Every FSDO seems to have a different stance about certain acts and or locations. Thankfully, I have only seldomly been saddled with the NOTAM and paperwork hassle on shows. I am MUCH happier just being the monkey pulling the strings and stomping the target.

Chuck
former member of the following illustrious parachute teams:
20th SFG parachute team, Green Beret Parachute Team, USASOC parachute team.

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The paperwork drill required to perform different demonstrations is fascinating to me. Every FSDO seems to have a different stance about certain acts and or locations. Thankfully, I have only seldomly been saddled with the NOTAM and paperwork hassle on shows. I am MUCH happier just being the monkey pulling the strings and stomping the target.

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I concur

John wright

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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John,
I understand you didn't ? the quals, as I would never ? another skydivers, and I apologize as I to did not mean to insinuate that anyone who does tandems into a stadium has no common sense. I was simply stating that the GK does not do tandems into stadiums due to all the factors such as the turbulence as well as always changing wind conditions in a stadium. I personally have had my canopy collapse inside the lip of a stadium from the turbulence and from swirling winds There are so many factors in a stadium jump and unfortunately most of them are unforeseen as well as unpredictable. Due to that, The APT has determined that there is too much to risk at a high visibility demo site. and chooses not to do them.
During training, which is 5 days a week (if you are not on the road) if you can't place a tandem standing up into a PRO-rated area, you are not allowed to do tandems on "show site"
Personally I feel comfortable and confident that I could take a tandem into almost anywhere. HOWEVER! Sometimes my personal lack of common sense and overbearing amount of built-up testosterone is kept in check by my duty position as well as my mission which is to Promote in a positive light....
AKA: Never embarrass the team or the Army
Thank you SkymonkeyOne, for clarifying for me as I was at work all day...You remember work? yes I even have to work on occasion. I also spent more time with spell check than typing.
"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

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