low pull, cypress fire, no reserve extraction

[juggalo 1]

Recently we had a jumper deploy low and his cypress fired. He was jumping a Reflex container mfg. Sept. 2000. Main is a Hornet 210 loaded about 1.1-1.2. Reserve is a tempo 210 and uses the catapult system. Observer on the ground stated the reserve pilot chutes came off the jumpers back as he sat in the saddle and the main started flying.
Anyone with any input on this would be greatly appreciated. It makes me wonder about doing a canopy transfer with this rig.
Thanks
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[Hooknswoop 19]

If the main doesn't have enough speed, the reserve PC won't extract the free bag from the container.

What you really don't want is for the bag to pass up the PC (PC in burble, bag takes off) and then the PC go through the reserve lines. I know of at least on reserve malfunction that was caused by the bag leaving while the PC was in the burble.

Derek

[billvon 2,476]

>Anyone with any input on this would be greatly appreciated. It makes
>me wonder about doing a canopy transfer with this rig.

Shouldn't be any different than a canopy transfer with any other rig. The catapult, in most cases, simply adds drag to the reserve PC and helps open the reserve more quickly. If the reserve PC snags on something, the catapult may allow the reserve to launch anyway.

Canopy transfers are particularly dangerous manuevers; they are useful only under a very speciific set of circumstances (i.e. you're low and have a main canopy that's unlandable but can be flown on a heading.) Most people recommend sticking with both canopies in the case of a cypres firing, cutting away the main only if the canopies downplane. You can't safely land a downplane, but a downplane does, in most cases, provide enough separation such that you can safely cut away the main.

[juggalo 1]

With the main flying normally to landing I would think that would be enough speed to extract the reserve. This paricular case the reserve bag stayed in the container even after landing. the jumper was not aware that the cypress even fired.
With a fully flying main one should be able to do a transfer.
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[juggalo 1]

I agree that the dual set up on thisw rig should deploy the reserve. In this case it did not. The jumper was not aware that the cypress fired(BAD)
But the reserve stayed on his back even after landing. Personally I have done 3transfers and all of them came out and deployed with out a problem.
I think there is some problem with a horizontal extraction with this rig. ????

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

With the main flying normally to landing I would think that would be enough speed to extract the reserve.

Not always. Especially with a larger main. Remember, containers have the same size reserve PC for the largest and smallest reserves. Reserve PC's are not made bigger for bigger reserves. With a large main and reserve, there may not be enough speed from the main and enough drag from the PC to deploy the reserve.

Derek

[rigging65 0]

I've seen his happen at least a half-dozen times, on several different rig types. IMO, it's a good thing. If there isn't enough drag generated to quickly inflate the canopy, you're better keeping it in the container system. That way there is no way it can pop it's stows and start to inflate while you're on final...or have it's lines tangle around your feet and impede your ability to run out a landing (both of which I've personally seen).

The original Reflex was sewn with "closed" reserve corners specifically to hold the bag in place until there was sufficient drag for inflation. The way it was designed, if you were falling away from the pilot chute, there was no restriction and the bag simply slid out...however, if the pilot chute was either at, or below, level with the jumper it would have to be generating enough drag to facilitate inflation, or else the bag would be held in place until either 1) the angle changed (ie- you cut away) or 2) that drag increased (ie- you cut away and increased your airspeed).

Unfortunately, a couple of people bitched about how they could bench fail it because the bag didn't just "flop" out. They made a bunch of noise about it (without really consulting the mfg. about the design choice) and were publicly condemning the design in their region. It was a truly raw deal for FliteLine Systems. Incidentally, as any experienced rigger/mfg.can tell you, you can bench fail just about anything. In a non-dynamic environment, it's easy to keep things balanced and "in place". The fact is, the "real world" is dynamic and there was never any proof that you could total any reserve system with "closed" corners.

Of course, as usually happens, it was more simple to change the design slightly than to deal with those too ignorant to understand the way the system is designed to work...even after it's been explained to them. So, that later model Reflex rigs have a slightly less "closed" corner, but it still does a relatively good job of making sure there is drag before there is bag extraction.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I've seen his happen at least a half-dozen times, on several different rig types. IMO, it's a good thing.

It has personnally happened to myself and yes I was very happy that the reserve stayed in the container (I could be dead otherwise). But my old reserve was considered somewhat large (though in spec) for the container and have since downsized one reserve size.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,476]

>But the reserve stayed on his back even after landing. Personally I
> have done 3transfers and all of them came out and deployed with
> out a problem.

We've had several AAD fires under canopy on our Telesis (student) rigs and the reserve bag usually stays in the container. That's a good thing, as the student doesn't have to deal with a two-out situation (usually.) A large student canopy doesn't generally provide enough forward speed to launch the freebag.

[jerry81 10]

Quote

We've had several AAD fires under canopy on our Telesis (student) rigs and the reserve bag usually stays in the container. That's a good thing, as the student doesn't have to deal with a two-out situation (usually.) A large student canopy doesn't generally provide enough forward speed to launch the freebag.

About a month ago a student at our dz cracked two vertebrae after his reserve inflated at ~50' and the canopies downplaned. Telesis container and a situation such as you describe. I guess this usually doesn't happen, but it should be noted as a possibility.

---

[ChileRelleno 0]

OK, folks,
the jig is up it was I the now ever so humble and meek (yeah right!) ChileRelleno who initiated/experienced this event. In any event I've learned from my mistake.

Now let me give you the rundown of what happened with this particular jump so as some other dumbass might think twice about the possibility of humming it low just for shits-n-giggles.
A small group of us were joshing and joking each other about going low on this particular jump and I even joked that the one with a cypres fire wins. Anyways off we go, I actually was planning on pulling below BSR's and had thought to myself once aboard the A/C to have my cypres turned off but then thought to myself "I'm not going that low." (famous last words). Two of the go-low jumpers exited ahead of our group and then three of us exited a FF horny gorilla exit with the intention of holding each other in leglock to the point of reasonable insanity. One of us popped out of formation due to centrifugal force and I didn't release the other till he twisted around and started pounding on my rig (we had stabilized as a face to earth,leglocked two-way). I didn't initiate my deployment till my protrack was screaming its third warning at 1500ft and was in the saddle about 800ft. I didn't know my cypres had fired,I didn't know my primary P/C,Catapult P/C and bridle were in tow behind me. I was busy using the accuracy trick and examining possible outs (I made it back no problem and geeked a friend on the ground with a camera as planned). Since I didn't feel the primary P/C launch I figure the cypres probably fired while the main was "just" completing its deployment and transitioning to flight.
My protrack readings were, Exit Altitude - 5700
Delay - 32
Deployment - 800

Okeydokey there's the scenario, I've learned my lesson, now learn from my mistake.

To say the least there was some concern about the incident and in particular the fact that the reserve didn't deploy. I wasn't real concerned about it until Brew brought up the canopy transfer scenario, which is in my emergency playbook, that got my attention. We found the reserve D-bag to be held in place by the closed corners of the reserve tray created by the reserve side flaps and material coming up from the main side flaps. The force on the ground seemed minimal to extract the d-bag.
All this led to much speculation and debate and we all decide to investigate and compare findings.
My first point of contact was to talk with Ray Ferrell (hope I got the spelling correct) who currently handles tech issues and parts for the Reflex H/C. He was very helpful and gave me much the same info as you have given here, thanks to both of you for your help. I'm completely satisfied with the explanations given here and by others as to the reasons why the reserve didn't deploy and will continue to use my Reflex. My cypres did its job, my Reserve system functioned as designed and I will not be so stupid in the future.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[riggerrob 563]

Like rigging65, I have also seen this scenario a half-dozen times on a variety of student rigs, all equipped with FXC 12000 AADs. A common factor was that all the students/junior jumpers deployed their mains below 3,000 feet.
Bad student! Naughty student!

In all but two cases, the reserve container worked as designed, holding the reserve d-bag on the student's back. Most of them did not even realize that their reserve pilotchute was trailing. The last guy didn't realize anything was unusual until his reserve d-bag flopped over his shoulder after he touched down! Hee! Hee!
As for the student who inflated both canopies ... we were all relieved when he quit skydiviing after landing two biplanes in a row!

[riggermick 6]

To say the least there was some concern about the incident and in particular the fact that the reserve didn't deploy. I wasn't real concerned about it until Brew brought up the canopy transfer scenario, which is in my emergency playbook, that got my attention. We found the reserve D-bag to be held in place by the closed corners of the reserve tray created by the reserve side flaps and material coming up from the main side flaps. The force on the ground seemed minimal to extract the d-bag.

The reserve deployment system worked exactly as designed. The reserve container flap design (shape) and configuration (how they interact with one another) was deliberately designed to prevent the reserve canopy from deploying in just this type of scenario. This type of engineering is called "friction staging". Had a breakaway been performed the drag on the pilot chute would have increased in a second or two as free fall speed was increasing. Just as in a normal cutaway situation the reserve would be extracted in the same time frame from a standing start, the reserve pilot chute(s) being already out would make for a faster deployment than an RSL.
Had this container not been equipped with friction staging you would have had a two canopy out situation and some much harder decisions to make.
The container worked exactly as it was designed to. I'm glad you're ok.


All this led to much speculation and debate and we all decide to investigate and compare findings.
My first point of contact was to talk with Ray Ferrell (hope I got the spelling correct) who currently handles tech issues and parts for the Reflex H/C. He was very helpful and gave me much the same info as you have given here, thanks to both of you for your help. I'm completely satisfied with the explanations given here and by others as to the reasons why the reserve didn't deploy and will continue to use my Reflex. My cypres did its job, my Reserve system functioned as designed and I will not be so stupid in the future.

[ChileRelleno 0]

As with my questions about secondary riser covers, you and others have answered my questions and concerns. Thank you and Bluskies.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[riggermick 6]

Quote

As with my questions about secondary riser covers, you and others have answered my questions and concerns. Thank you and Bluskies.

You're welcome,
And, as always I'm here to answer all of your Reflex related questions and queries. After all this is (was) my baby.

Mick.