Hackey of puff

[shodan75 0]

Hey guys and girls

I'm buying my first rig and woundering about main deployment handle. What to get Hackey or Puff?
Never used a puff but it has been recommended buy the dealer. What is everyone take on the puff? Please give me some feed back so I can make a well informed decision.
It has been said that "the hackey has caused mals. in the past"?
Thanks for your feed back!

One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim

[skybytch 259]

Quote

It has been said that "the hackey has caused mals. in the past"?

????

[shodan75 0]

That has also confused me! I can't see how!

One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim

[Remster 24]

Whats a puff by the way???

Remster

[winsor 187]

If you mean PUD, then by all means go for the pullout.

Hackey (by which I assume you mean throwout, likely BOC) is capable of hoseshoe malfunction. This is not true with a pullout.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[sdgregory 0]

I'm betting it is the freefly handle.

[jerry81 10]

By puff he probably means a pillow handle (pull-out style).
As for hackey mals, two possibilities come to mind- oscillating hackey (in combination with a poorly maintained boc) causes a premature opening; or a careless packer (in combination with a hackey handle) somehow loops the bridle around it, making a mess out of it.

As for my opinion on the 'puff'- I didn't really like it the couple of times I jumped with it. I felt it was a bit harder to get as firm a grip on it as on a hackey (or even a piece of tubing)

---

[Remster 24]

Quote

Hackey (by which I assume you mean throwout, likely BOC) is capable of hoseshoe malfunction. This is not true with a pullout.

Winsor,

with all due respect, thats incorect. You can still have a horseshoe with a POD, as any part of the main canopy assembly having contact with the jumper's body is a Horseshoe. You do eliminate one way for a HS to happen, but its still possible to get, say, the PC to hook itself on a arm, a leg, a grommet.

I cant find it right now, but there's a discussion between Bill Booth and someone lese that was posted on the forum on POD vs throw out. I'd link to it as a counter agrument of your preference to POD.

Remster

[wzettler 0]

Is this it?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=512508#512508

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

[Remster 24]

Its not the one I was thinking off, but close enough! Thx

Remster

[Pendragon 1]

In the UK, you're not allowed to jump with a pull-out until you've got 200 jumps. I don't know what the rules are elsewhere, but just bear in mind that it's possible that you wouldn't be able to jump your own equipment in some places with a PUD if you're inexperienced.

I suppose the problems with PUD systems are potential hesistations (if the PC gets caught in the burble - hence the system cannot be used by wingsuit jumpers), or if the handle dislodges itself before deployment, leading to a "floating handle" and requiring the user to first search for the bridle line and pull that instead, or go for a reserve ride. Anyone got anything to add to that? I haven't used one myself...

I've never had any problems with my BOC (fingers crossed!)

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[councilman24 36]

We need to know if your asking about a hackey versus pillow handle for a throw out system, OR a throw out versus pullout deployment system. See below:

From

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/aff/napoleon/level8.shtml
"The Pullout Deployment System
Though it was developed after the throwout system, the pullout deployment system is actually more like a traditional ripcord deployment system. In the pullout system, the deployment handle is attached to a straight closing pin and to the base (or bottom) of a springless pilotchute. As the deployment handle is pulled, the pin is first extracted from the container closing loop. As the handle is pulled further, the pilotchute is pulled from the now open container and inflates, pulling the handle from the skydiver's hand. The handle is usually mounted on the bottom of the container.

The Throwout Deployment System
The throwout system was the first ``hand deployed'' pilotchute system developed. The handle is attached to the apex (top) of the pilotchute. The pilotchute itself is externally packed (usually in a pocket on the legstrap or bottom of container. The pilotchute is extracted from its pocket and released at arm extension. It then inflates and pulls a curved pin from the closing loop, opening the container. "

_______________________________________________

Some newer pillow handles have been used on throwout PC to decrease possiblity of inadvertant deployment due to drag on the hackey. These seem to be more secure but vary from rig to rig. I personally don't like them. I find them harder to grasp, but this can likely be overcome with practice. I also don't do much free flying.

Pullout versus throwout is a long running debate, >20 years. Over the time I've seen many more reserve rides do to no pull or floating handles with pullouts. Modern pullout handles are more secure. When we were still experimenting with various pin/loop combinations on throw outs, pull outs had the advantage that the jumper was physically pulling the pin. With the advent of curved pins for throwouts the reliablilit became MUCH higher. I for one prefer to maintain my throw out system and let the much stronger force of the PC pull the pin than pull it myself at what is an awkward angle.

Both systems can be packed with PC malfunctions but IMHO pull out packing is more critical, for reasons I won't try to explain in text.

Throwouts have the majority of the market, through with proper instruction and experience pullouts are a successful alternative.

Winsor,

While pullouts remove some types of horseshoes, some of those have also been eliminated by BOC location. Pullouts also have the possibility of increased bad horseshoes because the pin is pulled and if the bridle NOW wraps around something the main can leave. If a throw out wraps around something like an arm the container may still be closed making for a cleaner deployment.

I'm not telling you anything you don't know but offering an expanded discussion to your one liner.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Quote

I've never had any problems with my BOC (fingers crossed!)

And you won't as long as you pay attention to packing the PC and bridle, and maintain your pocket. I just "made" two customers replace their tired spandex BOC's.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I'm betting it is the freefly handle."

Likewise, I have one on my BOC system and I really like it.
So my opinions on this before it gets sidetracked into pull out vs BOC (jumped both as well, but prefer BOC).

Its always in the same place when I reach for it, and it seems less likely to get caught on stuff as I bum shuffle around wee planes.
Your mileage may vary, try someone else's before you make up your mind, and as with all new or unfamiliar gear, build some muscle memory before you try it out for real.
Downside is that hackeys and pipe handles are pretty common, so replacing the handle when you replace the PC is not an issue, as will be the case with the puff.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[winsor 187]

Quote

Quote

Hackey (by which I assume you mean throwout, likely BOC) is capable of hoseshoe malfunction. This is not true with a pullout.

Winsor,

with all due respect, thats incorect. You can still have a horseshoe with a POD, as any part of the main canopy assembly having contact with the jumper's body is a Horseshoe. You do eliminate one way for a HS to happen, but its still possible to get, say, the PC to hook itself on a arm, a leg, a grommet.

I cant find it right now, but there's a discussion between Bill Booth and someone lese that was posted on the forum on POD vs throw out. I'd link to it as a counter agrument of your preference to POD.

You are, of course, right.

I was unclear, since I was thinking specifically of horseshoe malfunctions related to premature opening of the container. With a BOC throwout, it can be nigh impossible to locate and extract the pilot chute by means of the handle without the D-bag in place, though it may be extracted by means of the bridle if packed properly.

If a closing loop breaks or pin is dislodged with a pullout, it generally results in an inadvertent deployment at a higher than expected altitude.

Agreed, there are pros and cons with each system, and neither is perfect. I have been impressed enough by the potential for disaster presented by a prematurely open container that I wasn't addressing the other horseshoe modes.

FWIW, I have rigs with both systems. I generally lean toward the pullout, but think both are just fine if properly maintained and implemented.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[shodan75 0]

Yes that would be it.....thankyou, however I have never heard anybody complain about the hackey.
I guess anything is possible.

Thanks for the reply

One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim

[shodan75 0]

Quote

Whats a puff by the way???

It is another type of handle and it is still a throw-out
pilot chute.

One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim

[shodan75 0]

Thanks for all the info and some of the older articles that I have not been around to read in the past.

It seems like this Throw out vs. pull out has been a topic of controversy for sometime, and may still be for awhile.

Cheers

One must ensure that his or her spirit is never broken......Samurai Maxim