USPA group member safer or what?

[CrazyRock 0]

Wow peckerhead, three posts in a row. how bout using the "edit" button
And what gives anyway? you just started talking about something totally different than what we were talking about, and in your own thread! and then, when someone makes a good argument you just keep saying 'you have proven my point'... no he hasn't!! how are you getting that??
Tlegs: I think your last post just about sums it up, i think that is exactly right.

-Seth :)

[CrazyRock 0]

Ok, and back to your original topic.

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5% voted What?
The majority does not feel any safer at GM drop zones.
What does that say?
.

um, you are reading the posts right?? I think livendive said it well-

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Group membership status and safety are wholly unrelated topics. Asking if group member DZs are safer is like asking if gray cars have better transmissions.

I thought we were just getting an interesting discussion going on the USPA's role and/or safety overall when you posted the stuff about paying for coach jumps.

Phreezone and Mustard: nice posts- I think it would be nice to see more info like that for the ppl who are running for the BoD, and to get more people involved in deciding who gets voted in!

-Seth :)

[peckerhead 0]

"I think you can either live in the past or join the rest of us in the present. "

I think that was rude and uncalled for.

You don't speak for "The rest of us"

You seem to speak for the few and the greedy.

Blue skies

[Hooknswoop 19]

For the 13 so far that have voted 'safer', you are kidding yourselves. What is there about being a USPA GM DZ that makes it safer than a non-USPA GM DZ?

Derek

[quade 3]

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I think that was rude and uncalled for.

No.

Rude and uncalled for is going into someone's house and starting a belligerent conversation.

You posed a question to which most people have given their honest opinions as replies. If you don't want people's opinions, then don't ask questions -- especially around here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[crwmike 0]

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So, for you guys saying the USPA should basically have nothing to do with non member dz's, what is your response to that?? Seriously!!

I think it's total BS that he's on the BoD -- period.

He wants the benefits, wants to have a say in how the USPA does it's business, but isn't willing to pony up the GM dues money.

Oh, and I was trying to be at least a little discreet and not point out exactly who it was. Reason? I sort of wanted to see if people actually do pay attention to stuff like that -- which, I maintain, they don't. Present company excepted.

I'm guessing that the -vast- majority of USPA member have no idea who you and I are talking about. Sadly, I bet they also don't care.

Paul,

I'm saddened by your response. I hear this attitude from many who are concerned with the business of skydiving. You, and other, relative newcomers to skydiving have ...different priorities than those of us who are in skydiving for the beauth and the fun.

Michael

[quade 3]

Well, Mike, ok, I totally understand your point.

However, here's -my- take on it.

We're all skydivers. I think we're -stronger- as an organization.

If some folks want to do their own thing, then fine. They can go do their own thing. I really have no issue with that. I think we're stronger together, but if they don't want to be part of the group then they shouldn't try to have it both ways.

I'm -certainly- not in this for the money and if you read my posts, I think you'll see that I have a bit of a problem with some of the folks that -are- in it for the money -- especially if they want to also be in charge of the rest of us and tell us what to do.

I'm, on a 10 minute call right now . . . I gotta go, but maybe we can chat about this a little later.

Edited to add . . .

Ok, back from the jump and on a break. BTW, where are you this weekend? I'm at the dz.com boogie in Perris?

Anyway . . .

I guess my entire point is that people need to work -together- from within the system.

When I had very few jumps -I- got free coaching from a really interesting program they had set up at Perris. Right now, we have a skydiver, MJ, that does the same thing. He has a great little 2-way newbie coaching program that doesn't cost anything. He set the whole thing up, approached management with it and it's a done deal. He's working -within- the USPA system and providing a valuable service.

There's absolutely no reason -whatsoever- that all of these other people whining and moaning about the Coach Rating system couldn't do the exact same thing.

Does -that- make a little more sense?

Anyway, we have a hell of a lot of sub-topics in this thread don't we?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[crwmike 0]

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Well, Mike, ok, I totally understand your point.

However, here's -my- take on it.

We're all skydivers. I think we're -stronger- as an organization.

If some folks want to do their own thing, then fine. They can go do their own thing. I really have no issue with that. I think we're stronger together, but if they don't want to be part of the group then they shouldn't try to have it both ways.

I'm -certainly- not in this for the money and if you read my posts, I think you'll see that I have a bit of a problem with some of the folks that -are- in it for the money -- especially if they want to also be in charge of the rest of us and tell us what to do.

I'm, on a 10 minute call right now . . . I gotta go, but maybe we can chat about this a little later.

Edited to add . . .

Ok, back from the jump and on a break. BTW, where are you this weekend? I'm at the dz.com boogie in Perris?

Anyway . . .

I guess my entire point is that people need to work -together- from within the system.

When I had very few jumps -I- got free coaching from a really interesting program they had set up at Perris. Right now, we have a skydiver, MJ, that does the same thing. He has a great little 2-way newbie coaching program that doesn't cost anything. He set the whole thing up, approached management with it and it's a done deal. He's working -within- the USPA system and providing a valuable service.

There's absolutely no reason -whatsoever- that all of these other people whining and moaning about the Coach Rating system couldn't do the exact same thing.

Does -that- make a little more sense?

Anyway, we have a hell of a lot of sub-topics in this thread don't we?

You know, Paul, you make some good points and I had no justification for jumping on you in that manner. You are a bit more business oriented that I prefer but from what I hear, you're a good man with good intentions. We disagree on the appropriateness of Mike being elected to the BOD, but that's really no big deal

Peace, brother,

Michael

Where I was this weekend was in the sugical ICU trying (unsuccessfully) to keep a 56 year old post open heart surgery patient alive. I'd much rather have been in Perris. I'm heading out to Perris for the CRW boogie the end of July. If you're there, I'll let you buy me a Pepsi.

[quade 3]

Good deal. If you're -ever- at Perris, look me up and the first one is on me.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Skyrose7 0]

this thread seems kind of dead, but I wanted to point out something.
Peckerhead, I see from your profile that you have been jumping for 20 something years. It is very easy for you to sit back and tell everyone they should be jumping with all the newbies for free because you have had your time to do whatever you want without judgement. Most people have not been in the sport so long and are still soaking up different disciplines while doing coaching or instructing on the side to help pay for this money sucking addiction. Do I jump for free with people I don't know (this isn't too much of an issue for me as coaching jumps happen, but not regularly at our dz), but yes, I do. Would I rather be learning more about headdown with a more experienced jumper in FF? Yes, I would, and that is my choice. So, if you want to make a difference, try not telling other people what they should spend their money on and do like some people have mentioned and start free coaching at your dz.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[AndyAnderson 0]

Reply to the original post.

No I do not feel any safer at a group member DZ. Group membership has no influence on adherence to the BSR's or FAR's. The individual skydivers, pilots and DZO's and staff DO have an influence on adherence to the BSR's and FAR's.

The USPA is a members organization not a DZO's organization and should put the interests of the members, not the DZO's first. The members agree to follow the BSR's by being members which makes the Group Membership program redundant.
How many of the GM DZO's who are board members volunteered for the USPA inspection program- NONE.
The USPA put a lot of time and effort into the program but the GM DZO's do not want to have an inspection done on them, the same as they choose when to follow the BSR's that suit them.

For example on the A license proficiency card the applicant must "In routine jump conditions, plan with a jump pilot and spot the aircraft without assistance". How many of the graduates at the big multi Otter GM DZ's owned by and not owned by Board members have actually complied with this requirement. Now sticking your head out the door when told and jumping when the pilot is watching his GPS does not cut the mustard. So all those who have not done this do not deserve their A license and the instructors who signed them off sold them short.

You will ruffle some feathers that need to be ruffled and not affect others.

A USPA member is a member no matter where he/she jumps and should have the support of his/her organization.

Andy.

I have jumped at 28 Non GM DZ's and 52 GM DZ's (and a whole bunch of demos) on 3 continents. I express my opinion because I know there are non GM DZ's that are safer than the majority of GM DZ's.

[winsor 186]

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How about if somebody you didn't know, who knew how to ski, but wanted to spend a day or half day working on technique asked you or your buddy to spend the day teaching them? How about if that was all you did, so you couldn't go off in the powder, or go full-tilt down the double diamonds, or cliffs and chutes, cause you gotta get this one-season wonder to quit snowplowing and turn the boards?

We're not talking about charging our friends. I don't even charge friends for AFF. I've even done free AFF (as in I paid my slot) for friends of friends. We're talking about breaking even when it's somebody we don't know, who may eventually become a friend, but that could apply skiing, too.

Not hard to chew on it when you don't confuse the issues.

If you think you are losing something by jumping with a neophyte, and should be paid for your sacrifice, by all means go an do what you would rather be doing.

I'll happily jump with the tyro - and pay for my own slot.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[winsor 186]

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Ya know what, I've been thinking about this for quite some time and I've come to the conclusion that times have changed. Not for the better, not for the worse -- simply changed.

It doesn't matter how things were -- it matters how things are.
You can't go back in time.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- simply the way things are.

If you want to be an instrument of change -- then be an instrument of change.

Don't whine about how it was in "the good old days" because they simply no longer exist. Go get whatever qualifications you need to do the thing and then go do it. Get the Coach rating, strike a deal with the DZO for you to give free coaching to newbies. Sell it as passing along your wisdom and knowledge to the newbies, but for God's sake don't sell it as "this is the way we did it in the good old days", because I'll bet you a bag of donuts it really isn't.

I think you can either live in the past or join the rest of us in the present.

With all due respect, fuck the coach rating. I take up low timers routinely, and have the mother-may-I from various S&TAs to do so without compensation or the rating.

The attempt to mandate that post-training pre-license jumps be made with a paid coach is repellent. If you think there is anything but base motives behind this bit of regulation, you really don't know either the people involved or how it came about.

The idea that this policy is somehow the wave of the future is absurd. It is simply the exercise of power by parties that should be kept on a short leash.

These are the good old days, and there are those among us that right now jump with low-timers without any added cost to them.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[jlmiracle 7]

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The DZO was voted to the BOD by the USPA membership. IMO that speaks for itself.

As -I- remember it, he was voted in as the result of an internet campaign from over at rec.skydiving as a kind of F-U because some twit, not the actual DZO mind you, was being a total a-hole and thought he knew how to run the USPA, so he got the DZO involved as a write-in candidate. He thought he would have some sort of sway with the DZO that was elected. Fortunately, he didn't, but we still ended up with this really weird BoD member situation.

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This is the most bizarre thing I have ever read that you have written Quade. What makes you think any of that happened. Do you know that for a fact. Who is the Twit you are referring to. Why don't you run Quade you seem to have all the answers.

Why can't a DZO be concerned about USPA matters and be a USPA MEMBER, and choose not the be a GM. The USPA cannot serve 2 masters (the jumpers and the dzo's) without conflict. They need to get rid of the GM program because it COSTS ME MONEY AND I'M TIRED OF PAYING THEIR WAY.

BTW, I hold no ill will to -any- non group member drop zone -- including the one owned by this BoD member. What pisses me off is the idea that they are "entitled" to some sort of USPA benefits when they do not contribute or take the pledge.

Why is it so wrong for a NON GM DZO to give a shit about skydiving matters? There are DZO's that pretend to conform to the GM program that really don't give a shit about you and me or skydiver out there. I call them hypocrites. The DZO's want to be in charge of the USPA so they can make the USPA out to be the bad guys. All these GM DZO's want more regulation and because they are too scared to enforce a something as a business, they go to the USPA and say make it rule so the DZO can go to you and say hey you can't jump cause the USPA says you have to have blonde hair and blues eyes. Now the DZO is off the hook and everyone is mad at the USPA. I didn't vote for but 2 people that are on the BOD. I didn't really care much for some of the other candidates.

Judy

By the way quade, several jumpers, including myself, bugged him for years to run for the BoD. So maybe I'm the twit you are referring too.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[quade 3]

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This is the most bizarre thing I have ever read that you have written Quade. What makes you think any of that happened. Do you know that for a fact. Who is the Twit you are referring to. Why don't you run Quade you seem to have all the answers.

Well, yes, I was rushed when I wrote that and the sentance structure isn't too clean, but it -is- essentially correct. If you think it's bizarre, then you should remember that truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense.

I'm not sure if someone is still keeping logs of old rec.skydiving, but I -think- that at one time there was someone who did it. If you could find the person and the logs, maybe they could show you the whole unsightly story. Name evades me right now, but in any case let me assure you that the story I relayed, no matter how poorly, did, in fact, occur.

The person that pushed for the internet campaign was Don Jardine, aka "treetop". If you doubt me, go over to rec.skydiving and ask him how Mike Mullins originally became a member of the BoD.

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Why can't a DZO be concerned about USPA matters and be a USPA MEMBER, and choose not the be a GM. The USPA cannot serve 2 masters (the jumpers and the dzo's) without conflict. They need to get rid of the GM program because it COSTS ME MONEY AND I'M TIRED OF PAYING THEIR WAY.

If you don't like the Group Member program, then be the agent of change, rally the general membership and vote the DZOs out of office. Put well trusted people in place and hope that they can correct things.

You might consider running yourself.

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Why is it so wrong for a NON GM DZO to give a shit about skydiving matters?

As long as the GM program exists I assume it exists for the betterment of the sport. I realize you don't see it that way and I respect that position, but it's what -I- believe in.

A DZO of a non group member drop zone has, in my opinion, no business being on the BoD. It just doesn't make sense.

I would fully support a regular skydiver from a non group member drop zone, but a DZO? -- never. Have him do the honorable thing, take the pledge and pony up the dues and he'll get my blessings, but until that time -- no.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I would fully support a regular skydiver from a non group member drop zone, but a DZO? -- never. Have him do the honorable thing, take the pledge and pony up the dues and he'll get my blessings, but until that time -- no.

If the 'pledge' actually meant something I might agree with you, but it doesn't. How can signing a hollow 'pledge' make any difference? His DZ is safer than a lot of GM DZ's............

Derek

[jlmiracle 7]

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The person that pushed for the internet campaign was Don Jardine, aka "treetop". If you doubt me, go over to rec.skydiving and ask him how Mike Mullins originally became a member of the BoD.

***

Mike won because people voted for him and wanted a change in the current BoD. Treetop just did alot of campaigning for him and several others. Didn't treetop run also? I did run that first year when Mike had to run as a write-in. In fact, a few of us did from that area of the country. The Election committee found that I was more qualified than Mike at that time and I only had about 600 jumps, no Instructor rating, just a fun jumper, but sat through 1 whole BoD meeting. Now Mike's qualifications included Pilot, DZO, former Instructor, many more years in the sport than me and has competed in skydiving and has been to several BoD meetings.

Judy

I don't visit rec.dot. anymore. I don't have the code book that goes with all the gibberish.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

• Quote

[slug 1]

Hi Quade

Your status as a moderator gives you certain powers, IMO on this thread you've hijacked this thread instead of being objective

This thread involves skydiving but is also political, Some of us requested the thread be moved from the Bon Fire to speakers corner and some how a moderator from the Bon Fire switched the thread to General skydiving Discussions (where he's not even a moderator) a much more public forum.

No name calling, no cussing, no fussing etc. Do what you want .

BTW got any problems with Jan Meyer being elected to the BOD? Where was her political support from.

R.I.P.

[quade 3]

Hey -- I -- didn't hijack this thread, I'm simply responding to it!

Go back and read who started what. I'm ONLY responding here.

You're right, some moderator (me) moved the thread from Bonfire (where I have significant powers) to General (where I have none). If you want to talk about me somehow abusing my powers, I think you've picked the wrong thread. I've given up my power over this thread.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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His DZ is safer than a lot of GM DZ's............

I'm not questioning that, although I think most of the people in this thread already think that is kind of a moot point.

I guess it's more of a symbolic gesture and while that may seem silly to some, at least it IS a statement of intentions to conform to standard practices.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jlmiracle 7]

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BTW got any problems with Jan Meyer being elected to the BOD? Where was her political support from.

R.I.P.

Yeah Quade, Didn't Jan get elected because of the same twit that you say got Mike elected?

Also, how can an organization serve 2 masters (individual members and GM) adequately.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AndyAnderson 0]

"If you don't like the Group Member program, then be the agent of change, rally the general membership and vote the DZOs out of office. Put well trusted people in place and hope that they can "correct things."

That is why Mike is now on the BoD.

"You might consider running yourself."

That is why Mike is now on the BoD.

"A DZO of a non group member drop zone has, in my opinion, no business being on the BoD. It just doesn't make sense."

It makes perfect sense when you realize the GM program serves no purpose to the USPA members. That is why Mike is on the BoD.( And got lots more votes from the membership than other GM DZO's and was supported by quite a few GM DZO's who collected votes for him)

I would fully support a regular skydiver from a non group member drop zone, but a DZO? -- never. Have him do the honorable thing, take the pledge and pony up the dues and he'll get my blessings, but until that time -- no.

[pilotdave 0]

Do you know WHY his DZ isn't a group member? I just don't understand your reasoning at all. First of all you apparently support the GM program. Not all USPA members do. But what I really don't understand is why you associate dues of the GM program to, well, anything. Paying money to get your DZ's name published in Parachutist every month may not seem like a good way to spend money to some people (What's that? There's more to the GM program than advertising? Like what?). But just because he refuses to pay the dues doesn't mean he isn't making a genuine pledge to running a safe DZ (which is more important to me than saying he'll follow every BSR).

I know one BSR his DZ would blatantly violate, and it doesn't bother me one bit. The age limit. His kids couldn't jump at a GM DZ. So why should the guy sign up to the BSRs if he doesn't believe in some of them?

What is so magical about being a GM DZ? And (since I honestly don't know) why should any DZ support the program?

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I guess it's more of a symbolic gesture and while that may seem silly to some, at least it IS a statement of intentions to conform to standard practices.

So if he were to post that he 'pledges' to adhear to established safety standards, and continue to attempt to help all U.S. skydivers by being on the USPA BOD, would that be enough? Or do you insist that he join the ranks of hypocritical GM DZO's that have broken the GM 'pledge'?

I think that by refusing to take a pledge that he has no intentions of upholding (whichGM DZ can say their jumpers never get within 2,000 ft horizontially to a cloud?), he is showing personal integrity. I think he is working to be a part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

BTW- no one has posted WHY they believe that being a USPA GM DZ it is a safer DZ than a non- USPA GM DZ.

Derek

[quade 3]

I think by not taking the pledge and paying dues, it shows disrespect to the organization. Kind of like a Senator not willing to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

What's so freekin' difficult to understand about this?

Derek -- read my FIRST responce to this thread. I believe it's the second post in it, so it should be fairly easy for you to find.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver