Did he really say this? Skydiver in tree

[DBCOOPER 1]

Quote

about 50,000 miles a year for work and I've never felt the instinctual fear

Ya gotta come to Philly and try the Surekill Distressway.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[kallend 1,683]

Quote

>Most skydiving injuries are self induced, ie. hook turns.

Not really. I have several friends who were injured doing "hook turns" and most of them simply turned too low; they weren't trying to do high performance landings. They just couldn't fly the parachute well enough to avoid injury. Akin to a driver who gets into a skid on an icy road and can't recover.

No properly flying canopy I know will do a hook turn or a low turn all by itself. In that respect, it seems fair to me to say that these low turn/hook turn injuries are self induced by the jumper. Whether it was a "look how cool I am" hook, or a turn to avoid an obstacle, it was still initiated by control input from the jumper.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,476]

>it seems fair to me to say that these low turn/hook turn injuries are
>self induced by the jumper.

I agree 100%. There seems to be an attitude, though, that people who are injured by low turns are intentionally pushing the envelope and trying to "impress their friends" or something. In my experience, most low turn injuries are experienced by people who aren't trying to do a hook turn, but rather just land safely into the wind. It is their inexperience rather than their ego or aggressiveness that is the primary cause of their accident.

[stoneycase 0]

I can't believe you think that he's making an inaccurate statement!

True story: Jumping all day at Skydive SB in Cali. Driving home, round 10-11pm on HWY 101S toward Santa Barbara (skydive sb is actually in Lompoc, 50mi away). 2 lane HWY, doing 75, music on, windows down, cruising...2 lights appear in the distance, in my lane. 500 yards away. No cars in front of me going my direction. 200 yards. Oh shit that's another car. Slowing down....100 yards oh shit that's definitely another car. Swerve left, off highway. See car go whizzing by doing 50-60mph. About 10 feet later it slams headon into a MBenz that was 5-6 carlengths behind me. No fatalities, nobody conscious. CHP on the scene within 5 minutes. I have to wait an hour to give a statement.

"so what did you see"
"f***ing headlights man, what do you think I saw?!"
"so you swerved"
"hell yeah, i got the f*** off the road"

Damn women drivers....

/takes back all negative comments about women drivers, except for the woman behind the car of the Ford Taurus that tried to kill me in 2003.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[benny 0]

Quote

I drive about 50,000 miles a year for work and I've never felt the instinctual fear I feel when skydiving.

You probably wouldn't have near as much fear if you fell 50,000 miles a year too...

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[juanesky 0]

Skydiving is dangerous regardless you want to see it or not.

It will never be safer than driving a car. A collision in a car at 40mph will most likely not kill you, as it will in your chute.

My 2 cts

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 2,476]

>2 lights appear in the distance, in my lane.

That's happened to me perhaps twice in my driving career, which now spans 20 years and probably 500,000 miles. It's happened about a dozen times in skydiving out of about 3500 jumps - finding myself face to face with someone, with a closing speed of 50mph, a few seconds from collision. In all cases I avoided the collision, but a few times in skydiving it was close.

At 98 jumps (per your profile as of last summer) you have driven a _lot_ more than you've jumped, which means you've seen a lot more dangerous stuff on the road than in the air. Over time that will change.

[pilotdave 0]

Perception will change, danger won't. I'm sure that's what you are saying.

I'm actually responsible for one of those web pages listed above that says driving is safer. (Tried to edit it but apparently I lost my editing privelages over the last week). Well, it actually compares national safety council stats with USPA stats. I always thought of that as somewhat of a joke. Stats can tell you anything you want. But I don't think the typical person will ever truly believe it. Everyone has a pretty good sense of the risks associated with driving. It would be damn hard to actually convince someone that they are literally safer jumping out of a plane than driving in a car. People aren't that naive. Now some people here obviously believe it, but they are apparently especially bad drivers. (just kidding)

Dave

[labrys 0]

Quote

You probably wouldn't have near as much fear if you fell 50,000 miles a year too...

Probably not, but I wouldn't think it was "safe" either. My inexperience probably makes me feel more fear than someone with a lot of jumps. Here's a question.... do you inspect your gear before you jump? Do you get gear checks?, practice EPs?

Will you continue to do these things when you have a lot of experience? I sure feel that I will. I feel that they are necessary to keep me as safe as I can be and I really don't imagine getting that complacent.

If driving to the DZ was more dangerous than skydiving, you'd be doing THIS:

Walk to the garage....

On the way, visualize what you will do if someone pulls out in front of you

Then imagine and practice your response if you have a tire blow out while you're on the freeway

Get out to the car..

Check air pressure in the tires

Are the brake lights working? Turn signals?

Does the horn work?

Check the webbing on the seat belt - fasteners clean and free of dirt?

Ok... get in the car and start it up

Seatbelt properly routed?

Air bag turned on?

Pull out of the driveway and hit the road.

Left turn - check!

Right turn - check!

Brake test - check!

Drive to the mall. Whew

Getting close to the parking lot. Better pick out my spot now

Owned by Remi #?

[velo90 0]

Quote

Quote

You probably wouldn't have near as much fear if you fell 50,000 miles a year too...

Probably not, but I wouldn't think it was "safe" either. My inexperience probably makes me feel more fear than someone with a lot of jumps. Here's a question.... do you inspect your gear before you jump? Do you get gear checks?, practice EPs?

Will you continue to do these things when you have a lot of experience? I sure feel that I will. I feel that they are necessary to keep me as safe as I can be and I really don't imagine getting that complacent.

If driving to the DZ was more dangerous than skydiving, you'd be doing THIS:

Walk to the garage....

On the way, visualize what you will do if someone pulls out in front of you

Then imagine and practice your response if you have a tire blow out while you're on the freeway

Get out to the car..

Check air pressure in the tires

Are the brake lights working? Turn signals?

Does the horn work?

Check the webbing on the seat belt - fasteners clean and free of dirt?

Ok... get in the car and start it up

Seatbelt properly routed?

Air bag turned on?

Pull out of the driveway and hit the road.

Left turn - check!

Right turn - check!

Brake test - check!

Drive to the mall. Whew

Getting close to the parking lot. Better pick out my spot now

And just as you make your final turn towards your spot a 100 drive wonder turns out of his slot and bang! Collision!

At least from this collision all you have is a bent fender. Thank your lucky stars this did not happen under canopy

I drive every day on the German auobahn. I can legally drive at 120 mph but I still have to keep an eye in my rearview mirror for the Merc that wants to pass because he is doing 160 mph. Even so, my driving activities are far safer than my skydiving activities.

Just a comment in general not a reply to labrys

[benny 0]

Note, although I am not saying that skydiving is or ever will be safe, neither is driving and your assumption that it is is simply perception based on repetitive action and societal notions... "everybody drives cars, that must be safe." Thousands of people die on the roadways every year, of course that's in relation to millions of miles driven, but still thousands die every year. We all probably should take the checklist you mentioned before we drive. And velo, if that merc going 160 was in the opposite direction, came into your lane and you were going 120, closing speed would be 280, I feel pretty certain you'd be dead or wish you were in the case of that collision.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Thousands of people die on the roadways every year, of course that's in relation to millions of miles driven, but still thousands die every year.

actually...
OVER A MILLION people die each year from automobile accidents.
In 1998 it was 1,170,694 people died worldwide from automobile accidents.
as for injuries...
total of 38,848,625 people were injured due to traffic accidents.


Statistics can be made to sound like anything. Want skydiving to sound safer? compare the number of deaths annually (average of 31) to the deaths annually of other sports:

Boating = 1,063
Scuba diving = 105 (1-2 cases of "Decompression Illness" [The Bends] per 10,000 dives) (7/02 Scuba Magazine)
Snowmobiling = 60
Water skiing = 47
Snow skiing = 41

Want to make it sound more dangerous? change the basis of comparison and make it "per million hours"...
Skydiving = 128.71
General aviation = 15.58
On-road motorcycling = 8.80
Scuba diving = 1.98
Living (all causes of death) = 1.53
Swimming = 1.07
Snowmobiling = 0.88
Passenger cars = 0.47
Water skiing = 0.28

What are you comparing to? Number of jumpers per number of car drivers?
time spent jumping per time spent driving?
distance fallen per distance driven?
average skydive per average automobile ride?
How YOU skydive compared to how YOU drive and where YOU drive?

It can probably look/sound as safe or as dangerous as you want to make it.
Me? I look at the number of jumps made....the number of annual fatalities....the cause of the fatalities...and estimate my risk of death annually from the way that *I* jump at my current experience level and my current choices (wing loading, swooping or not, CReW or not, BASE or not, etc)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[stoneycase 0]

I think you make a good point. With a limited # of jumps the likelihood of me having been involved in serious incidents is pretty low. As my jumping increases I may be involved in more dangerous incidents. If/when this occurs my perspective on what is more dangerous - driving or jumping, will most likely change.

I was just trying to reinforce the idea that although many people point to the obvious dangers of skydiving, those same people forget to examine the "relative dangers" of something they do everyday - drive their cars/trucks/monsterous SUVs recklessly with little or no regard for the lives of those around them.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[velo90 0]

Quote

It can probably look/sound as safe or as dangerous as you want to make it.

but only by using statistics

I don't look at the statistics, they are depressing enough anyway, I look at what I am doing. When I analyse what I am doing in skydiving it starts to look dangerous. When I look at what I am doing in a car it does not look as dangerous.

I survived an impact with a jaguar in my car (Dads car actually , sorry Dad). I hit the other car with enough speed to kill me if I hit the ground. Fortunately all that metal and seat belts took most of the impact so I was pretty much O.K.

People mess up at some time or another. Skydiving unlike car driving is not very forgiving of F**k ups.

[Pammi 0]

Um, what about everyone else on the road? There are a ton of crazy-a$$, non-thinking, morons going too fast, weaving in and out of traffic, talking on the phone or just plain dumb that I worry about every time I drive! I'd much rather be in the air with a few others! Sure, there are still some stupid-a$$es, but fewer of them and I can generally spot them from a previous load so as to stay away from them!

Pammi

[billvon 2,476]

> There are a ton of crazy-a$$, non-thinking, morons going too fast,
> weaving in and out of traffic . . .

Damn right! Why, about a month ago at Perris I was setting up a normal landing pattern when a guy initiated a hook right in front of me and landed downwind, and we all had to . . .

Oh, you meant on the roads! That too.

[Erroll 53]

Quote

People mess up at some time or another. Skydiving unlike car driving is not very forgiving of F**k ups.

I believe that will always be the difference when the driving/skydiving comparison is done: When things go really bad while driving your car you have a good chance of survival. When things go really bad while skydiving the outcome is likely to be catastrophic.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

I believe that will always be the difference when the driving/skydiving comparison is done: When things go really bad while driving your car you have a good chance of survival. When things go really bad while skydiving the outcome is likely to be catastrophic.

*heavy sigh* I disagree....kind of.

Depends on what you mean by "really bad". If you're going to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, if things go really bad driving OR skydiving, you're likely to be dead.

there are accidents, and then there are catastrophic accidents...in both activities. You have your broken legs and your twisted ankles and you have your bruises in skydiving...and you have your fender benders with cuts and bruises, your broken legs, your relatively minor injuries with driving.

You have your total malfunctions, your downplanes, your entanglements in jumping...
and you have your freeway rollovers, your falling asleep at the wheel, your hitting a tree, etc while driving.

You have your idiot who cuts you off under canopy and tangles with you, who is freeflying and corks up into you knocking you out, etc while jumping.
You have your head on collisions, your fast-food-eating distracted driver who crosses lanes and hits you, the jerk who pulls right out in front of you without looking, etc while driving.

Not all skydiving accidents are fatal...thank God. Total malfunctions are almost always fatal, true...but so are freeway headons. thankfully, both are relatively rare.

I agree that skydiving can be terribly unforgiving - but I also agree that so can driving be. When I drive, I use my seat belts, have airbags, keep both hands on the wheel (I will not eat while driving - although I have spoken on the phone), am constantly looking around for the idiot who's going to try to kill me, don't drive if the roads are too bad, don't "hot rod" the car, etc.
And when I jump, I safety check my rig, am constantly looking around for the idiot who's going to try to kill me under canopy, I don't heavily wingload, don't jump if the wind is high, don't swoop, etc.

I don't see driving and skydiving as a totally erroneous comparison. I see driving on the freeway as freefall, and driving on city roads as being under canopy...
if on the freeway you get a tire that blows out, you could be in serious trouble. someone swerve in front of you? Hit a patch of ice? Lots of things can be deadly on the freeway very very quickly with very little reaction time. On city roads you are likely to have slightly longer to react, but things can still happen quickly. while on city roads, more accidents are likely to result in injury than death (unless your'e being stupid about driving) - but it can still be deadly if you aren't careful.

Maybe I just drive in the wrong part of the country. But I take driving very seriously...as well as skydiving.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings