adrenalinejunki 0 #26 August 30, 2004 "Hey, I never heard the dytter, so I figured I had a few more seconds to get stable." __________________________________________________ Thats a good point. But I still think that having a dytter and the right instructions about what it is for would be safer than not having one. I'm not an instructor either though, but it just seems safer to me. __________________________________________________What's the worst that can happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #27 August 31, 2004 At Skyranch, we were fortunate enough to have some Telesis's with pockets for AOD's(AAD on the main). We set these for the students hardeck. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #28 August 31, 2004 I just wanted to say as a student I plan on getting a dytter only after I am liscensed...I don't want one on student status...And I am saying this after a bad 10 second delay which invoveled back flips when I let go of the strut. (yes, I did get myself stable and pulled at correct alt.) I was scared at the time but the only thing I could think was Arch, arch, check alt., arch...If I knew I would hear that think bailing in my ear I would have just kept fighting for the arch not worring about what alt I was at until I heard it...In my mind this would have been a bad thing. So as a student i think if students are going to use them fine but then set them much lower than there pull alt. and train them that they are just there for a just in case like the aad... Just one student's thought******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adrenalinejunki 0 #29 August 31, 2004 Hvaing an audible as a back up is what I have in mind. Students and licensed jumpers have 3 priorities: 1st Pull 2nd Pull at the proper altitude 3rd Pull with stability . Students should'nt have audibles set above thier preset deployment altitudes because they do need to learn to stay altitude aware on each and every jump. I really can't see anything wrong with having a dytter set for a 3,000ft siren if the deployment was supposed to be at 4,000ft. That is'nt teaching audible dependancy at all. It's just a wake up call reminding them that they must now save thier own life. __________________________________________________What's the worst that can happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #30 August 31, 2004 yeah good point bu ti am not looking at it like that....not everything always works and it is a way of life. but however it is a back up. no one should ever say to a student to rely on their ditter. as a student you have to have a cypres but no-one says 'oh dont worry be reasured the cypres will fire'. i think students should have an alti on their chest maybe as well as one on their wrist, a ditter and a cypres. Now there is reasurance. buit you cant dismiss a ditter because it might not work or slide up in the helmet or not hear it. Some might say it is to much for a student to take in but come on we are talking about jumping out of a plane. there is alot to worry about and i dont understand how a ditter could be a problem. some people learn on one pull system others learn on two pull system......some would say two pull system is too much to take in. there are alot of what if's in skydiving but if a student is not ready to do level one and understand ALL the equipment, well their instructor should not let them jump until they do understand why everything is their. just my opinion though and i am aware i am not an instructor before anyone points that fact out. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #31 August 31, 2004 QuoteAt Skyranch, we were fortunate enough to have some Telesis's with pockets for AOD's(AAD on the main). We set these for the students hardeck. There are a couple of DZs here and there with 2 AADs on their student rigs: 1 for the reserve and 1 for the main. I dont like the idea.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #32 August 31, 2004 QuoteSo as a student i think if students are going to use them fine but then set them much lower than there pull alt. and train them that they are just there for a just in case like the aad... That's logical. I buy that... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #33 August 31, 2004 Quote There are a couple of DZs here and there with 2 AADs on their student rigs: 1 for the reserve and 1 for the main. I dont like the idea. How come? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #34 August 31, 2004 AADs fuck up sometimes. Even the tried and tested ones that are the industry standards now. I'd rather limit the chances fuck ups by having 1 on the gear. Why dont you have 2 in your rig? Edit: PS, you dont need to answer that one of course. not having a ripcord, is enough to make this a non-issue, but still, I find 2 AADs over the top with not a lot of added safety for an increased risk.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #35 August 31, 2004 QuoteStudents and licensed jumpers have 3 priorities: 1st Pull 2nd Pull at the proper altitude 3rd Pull with stability Well, you certainly got your priorities right And - I totally agree with you. The funny thing is that although most instructors seem to disagree with you whereas several low-timers seem to agree with you, none has the data to back up his claims. One thing is for certain, nobody becomes 'device-dependant' if the device isn't there.What would interest me is if there are other DZ's that - like my place - give their freefall student a dytter (preset at 500ft below their pull altitude) and what their experiences are. Our experience? We've had students under AAD's but we feel that we would have had more of them without the dytter. We "remove" the dytter at the end of the (supervised) free-fall training program. Other than that - the logistics are a pain in the neck (Set the dytter, make sure the student understands its function and limitations, see to it that they are secure in the helmet, explain 'free-fall deafness' and get the dytter back after the jump - before it starts to scream in the ear of an innocent static liner on jumprun ...) After the training, some students buy their own dytter (and helmet, rig, parachute, altimeter, jumpsuit, goggle and gearbag) Others dont - or they only buy a few of the mentioned items... As a rule, we dont loan our dytters outside freefall training. As a rule people are intelligent enough to understand the different pro's and cons and make their own informed decision. All I have to do is inform them. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #36 August 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteI disagree. The instructor in the original post definitely "screwed the pooch." The best thing he could have done below 3,000 feet was open! Chasing a student below the hard deck gives the student a false sense of security. "If my instructor is still in freefall then every thing must still be okay." Seeing the instructor open can be a "wake up" call to a student. Hi Riggerrob. I think you mean "I agree" with me. Read my post again. We pretty much say the same thing. I think you and I have both been in that situation before. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Mitchel You are correct. I was agreeing with you, but disagreeing with an earlier poster who wanted to equip students with Dytters. My experience has been that students go deaf when they get scared. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #37 September 1, 2004 QuoteMy experience has been that students go deaf when they get scared. Not all students go deaf when they get scared and not all students are scared when they are lower than they should be, especially when they are unaware of their altitude - if they were scared they would pull, wouldn't they? You honestly never had a student that went low and later said that he/she didn't know it at the time? This is especially true during jumps where acceleration comes into play and they burn up a lot more altitude per second once they reach terminal velocity. Nothing wrong with a wake-up call even if the fact remains that they have to come out of bed themselves... For students that go scared to a degree that they are 'paralyzed with fear' there's the AAD (and the proverbial bowling ball...) Of course I'm with everybody that says you shouldn't create a false sense of security. However, there are certain type jumps I want a loud beep in my ears at a preset altitude, just as a precaution. And why is it that at some places audibles are mandatory during free fly jumps? OK for us but distracting the students? I dont buy it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #38 September 1, 2004 at a couple of dz's in new zealand, if you are freeflying you must wear to audibles. now when i heard this as a student i thought that made sense, now i can't figure it out. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #39 September 1, 2004 QuoteAADs fuck up sometimes. Even the tried and tested ones that are the industry standards now. I'd rather limit the chances fuck ups by having 1 on the gear. Why dont you have 2 in your rig? Edit: PS, you dont need to answer that one of course. not having a ripcord, is enough to make this a non-issue, but still, I find 2 AADs over the top with not a lot of added safety for an increased risk. Thanks for the reply. If I understand you right, it's the possibility of a premature opening caused by an AAD that causes your concern? Or possibly a two chutes out situation. Those are valid concerns. However, you and I pull as low as 2000' with AAD's set for 750'. AFF students are pulling much higher, with a larger gap between the two AAD altitudes. Experienced jumpers routinely fly over each other's backs. Only a fool flies over any student's back. Experienced jumpers occasionally pull low when caught in traffic. No student should ever be caught in traffic to begin with. The possibility of me losing track of altitude and not pulling is much less than the possibility of a student doing so. As a full time employee in the aviation field, I've concluded most of our hardware is much more reliable than the human beings running it. I'm a big fan of technology backing up human decisions (or indecision). With all that said, two AAD's may be a bit much, but maybe not as dangerous, for a student, as you think. John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #40 September 1, 2004 QuoteWith all that said, two AAD's may be a bit much, but maybe not as dangerous, for a student, as you think. Its still an added level of risk with limited added value for safety IMO.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #41 September 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteWith all that said, two AAD's may be a bit much, but maybe not as dangerous, for a student, as you think. Its still an added level of risk with limited added value for safety IMO. Yep, I can agree with that. Especially if you're using a piece of crap FXC 12000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
