Newbie 0 #1 February 16, 2004 in a post in incidents, some people are saying use front risers to try to make it back? I always ball up and slightly tug down on rears to change the glide angle - should i only do this if im upwind of the landing area? Are front risers better used if downwind? PS i know it's best to land out if i won't make it back and know about the "stationary spot" to check to see where i will be able to make it to. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #2 February 16, 2004 AFAIK front risers will never make you cover a greater distance, but it can help you going forward ! If you have strong wind, going on rear risers might make you fly backwards (relatively to the ground) and increase the distance to the spot you want to reach.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #3 February 16, 2004 Long discussion on exactly this subject here: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=118522#118522... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #4 February 16, 2004 Here's another thread on the topic: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=788037#788037... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #5 February 16, 2004 Quotein a post in incidents, some people are saying use front risers to try to make it back? In some circumstances, front risers will allow you to move forward over the ground and reach a landing area that you wouldn't have been able to if you just let the canopy fly. Front risers give you a bit more forward speed...at the sacrifice of altitude. For instance, if your canopy in full flight exactly matched the windspeed you were flying into you would descend straight down relative to the ground. If you wanted to land 10 feet in front of that point, front risers would get you there. As BillVon pointed out, if you're getting blown backwards, at the very least, front risers will reduce the amount of time you are in the air and reduce the length of your walk. Practice with them up high on windy days...face into the wind, watch your progress over the ground in full flight and then try some front riser to see if you make more progress over the ground. Work on things like this when you don't have to and it may help you make the right decision the next time you open and have to make a decision on where to land. In the other thread, some people suggested you know where you're going to land at 1000'. I wouldn't put a set altitude on it, I'd say that you should evaluate your situation immediately on opening and throughout your descent. In the situation you described, I think your decision had to be made higher. Always look at the outs and alternates...a long walk is way better than an ambulance ride. The links posted by Kallend have some excellent posts that do a much better job of explaining this. Read them and practice and add to your bag of tricks.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #6 February 16, 2004 These are Roger Nelson's Golden Rules: (They have been edited some over the years). They all apply to this scenario. Golden Rules of Skydiving 1. Land safely. 2. Land safe, not close. - If you think you can make it to a convenient area, but you know you can make it to a larger, safer area, go for the safer area and the longer walk. 3. Leave room for error. - Stuff happens up there. 4. Stay ahead of the jump. - Know what's supposed to happen next - 5. Always have a plan. - and know what to do about it - 6. Never give up. - and don't stop skydiving if something else happens instead, "It isn't over 'til it's over. " 7. Know your altitude. - All the time 8. Know when to say "no". - It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TOTALCHAOS127 0 #7 February 16, 2004 My 2 cents If you know how to reconize where you going to land by looking for the not moving spot. Then next time your find yourself down wind pull the fronts down for a couple of seconds and c if it helps. Every canopy is trimmed different so it might be advantagous on one canopy and not others Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #8 February 18, 2004 QuoteMy 2 cents If you know how to reconize where you going to land by looking for the not moving spot. Then next time your find yourself down wind pull the fronts down for a couple of seconds and c if it helps. Every canopy is trimmed different so it might be advantagous on one canopy and not others good point!! PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #9 February 20, 2004 Front risers do not increase your groundspeed, only your airspeed. You can prove this to yourself by flying beside another canopy. When you apply the front risers, you will sink, not more forward. The only time front risers are helpful in navigation is when you are facing a strong head wind and need to get down out of he "uppers". This is a much better choice than spiraling, as half of the spiral points the canopy downwind. This means that your location is moving downwind than simply facing into the headwind and crossing your fingers. In general, however, returning from a bad spot involves a tail-wind or a cross-wind. This means that you should do one of two things. If you have a strong tail wind, putting the parachute in deep brakes will attain the "minimum sink". This will allow you to stay in the air longer and allow the winds to take you home. If you aren't fortunate enough to have a straight tail-wind, however, you will need to utilize "maximum glide". This involves using your rear risers. Slight application of the rear risers will change the trim angle of the parachute without substantially increased the canopy's drag. The goal here is maintain airspeed to achieve maximum glide angle. Over application will diminish this effect, so search for the point that changes your glide without killing your speed. For more on canopy flight, look for my new Book: The Parachute and its Pilot. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #10 February 24, 2004 Quote If you have a strong tail wind, putting the parachute in deep brakes will attain the "minimum sink". This will allow you to stay in the air longer and allow the winds to take you home. thanks everyone. Brian can you explain this to me - how can putting the canopy into deep brakes = minimum sink? I would have thought deep brakes would have given you a max sink, no? Thanks for clarifying. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #11 February 24, 2004 QuoteFor more on canopy flight, look for my new Book: The Parachute and its Pilot. ISBN ?? can it be purchased in europe ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #12 February 24, 2004 >how can putting the canopy into deep brakes = minimum sink? I > would have thought deep brakes would have given you a max sink, > no? Some moderate amount of brakes will give you a minumum descent rate. If you go past that point into really deep brakes (i.e. near stall) your descent rate will pick up again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #13 February 25, 2004 Sink is about trajectory; ie glide ratio. It is true that deep brakes cause the canopy to fly at its steepest angle, its worst glide ratio. It is also true that this is the slowest decent rate on most canopies. In the case of a strong tail wind, minimizing your decent rate will allow the upper winds to carry you home, rather than relying on the parachutes glide ratio to get you home.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #14 February 25, 2004 In most cases, minimum sink is not half brakes, but full brakes, just prior to the stall. It does depend on the parachute's design and its wing loading.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #15 February 25, 2004 ***Front risers do not increase your groundspeed, only your airspeed. You can prove this to yourself by flying beside another canopy. When you apply the front risers, you will sink, not more forward. QuoteNow I'm confused. If your airspeed increases, how can your groundspeed not increase, unless you suddenly have a really steep glidepath. I've only got about half as many jumps as you, but on all the square canopies i have jumped, front risers got you at least a little increase in forward speed, both air and ground, although at a high cost in rate of descent. I've done the "next to another canopy" thing you talked about, and have always observed the front risered canopy moving ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #16 February 25, 2004 I understand what you are saying. If you pull your front risers while flying next to another canopy you will see yourself moving ahead of them, but only after you release your risers. This is due to the temorary increase in airspeed, converted into lift and glide. If you could do that over and over again, while facing into a strong headwind, you would theoretically gain more ground than full flight alone. Man, you guyz make me think sometimes!! Thanks for that! Ultimately, however, I think it is a better idea to open upwind of the target. Better also to jump when your canopy has lots of forward speed into the wind!Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 37 #17 February 25, 2004 QuoteI understand what you are saying. If you pull your front risers while flying next to another canopy you will see yourself moving ahead of them, but only after you release your risers. This is due to the temorary increase in airspeed, converted into lift and glide. If you could do that over and over again, while facing into a strong headwind, you would theoretically gain more ground than full flight alone. Umm, Brian? Front risers ALWAYS give me forward speed even before I let loose of them. That's why we use them so much in CRW? If I have hosed myself and gotten behind the formation, I'll ALWAYS use front risers to catch back up. Works like a champ. Admittedly - if you do too much front risers you sink more than you fly forward, but if you add a little it definitely gives you forward speed. I'm guessing that it depends on the initial trim of the canopy - if its a flatter trim front risers will help you gain that faster angle but if its already really steep, it may go past the "ideal" point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #18 February 25, 2004 Hey Wen! Nice to have a CRW-dog in the conversation. It is a continuum, obviously. Pulling the front risers allow the wing to fly faster. That's airspeed. I would be a moron to argue that point. My point is that pulling the front risers in hopes to get significant penetration does far less than more people assume. The increase airspeed gives an erroneous feeling of "penetration", but what is actually happening is the canopy is dramatically increasing its decent rate. It is flying at a steeper glide angle, trading altitude for airspeed. I agree that there are times when facing into the wind and front risering will be helpful in preventing the wind from blowing you away. It does far less than most folks think, however, and is no substitute for opening and flying you canopy upwind of the target area. Remember that, when doing CRW, you can dive down behind the stack by pulling the front risers. This can be done with little or no forward progress. It is this phenominon that I am trying get across, since most folks don't have the benfit of doing lots of CRW like you do.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 37 #19 February 25, 2004 Quote I agree that there are times when facing into the wind and front risering will be helpful in preventing the wind from blowing you away. It does far less than most folks think, however, and is no substitute for opening and flying you canopy upwind of the target area. Definitely opening upwind is the best case. But barring that, I'll still always do front risers. I can think of 2 major things at CRW camps which show the benefit of front risers - certainly on our Lightnings which are generally a flatter trim I'd say than a lot of your canopies. The first was a couple of years ago in Sebastian. There was a really bad spot, and they ended up downwind over the riser. One person made it to shore, and that person rode front-risers the entire way. Everyone who did it, landed in the brink or on a small island. The second was a few months after that. We had been doing double-16-ways (or maybe 25 ways) and we were a long way out over the swamp. 5-6 of us made it to the edge of the airport. Every one of used our front risers to get there. Most of the other people didn't, and they all landed in the swamp. In fact, I remember one CRWdog who was in the brink on the first jump, trying out front risers after watching the one guy make it back to shore, and he was one of the 5 of us who made it to the airport. Quote Remember that, when doing CRW, you can dive down behind the stack by pulling the front risers. This can be done with little or no forward progress. It is this phenominon that I am trying get across, since most folks don't have the benfit of doing lots of CRW like you do. Right. That is the difference. When I want to sink, I use a LOT of front risers. When I want to make forward distance, I use just a little front-risers. Its like rear-risers - optimal glide is usually just an inch or less of rear risers - if you do more than that you're edging on a stall usually (depends on the canopy) and you have less lift than if you weren't using them at all. With both front and rear risers you can use the "moving spot" to try and determine what is your optimal angle to get you back the farthest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #20 February 25, 2004 Herein lies the problem of generalization. For some canopies, "optimum glide" may require a steepening of the trim, while others require flattening. The design of a canopy's lineset is based on many things, and full flight is rarely the optimum glide ratio. Pilots must learn their wing if they are to use it to its full potential.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
BrianSGermain 1 #16 February 25, 2004 I understand what you are saying. If you pull your front risers while flying next to another canopy you will see yourself moving ahead of them, but only after you release your risers. This is due to the temorary increase in airspeed, converted into lift and glide. If you could do that over and over again, while facing into a strong headwind, you would theoretically gain more ground than full flight alone. Man, you guyz make me think sometimes!! Thanks for that! Ultimately, however, I think it is a better idea to open upwind of the target. Better also to jump when your canopy has lots of forward speed into the wind!Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #17 February 25, 2004 QuoteI understand what you are saying. If you pull your front risers while flying next to another canopy you will see yourself moving ahead of them, but only after you release your risers. This is due to the temorary increase in airspeed, converted into lift and glide. If you could do that over and over again, while facing into a strong headwind, you would theoretically gain more ground than full flight alone. Umm, Brian? Front risers ALWAYS give me forward speed even before I let loose of them. That's why we use them so much in CRW? If I have hosed myself and gotten behind the formation, I'll ALWAYS use front risers to catch back up. Works like a champ. Admittedly - if you do too much front risers you sink more than you fly forward, but if you add a little it definitely gives you forward speed. I'm guessing that it depends on the initial trim of the canopy - if its a flatter trim front risers will help you gain that faster angle but if its already really steep, it may go past the "ideal" point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #18 February 25, 2004 Hey Wen! Nice to have a CRW-dog in the conversation. It is a continuum, obviously. Pulling the front risers allow the wing to fly faster. That's airspeed. I would be a moron to argue that point. My point is that pulling the front risers in hopes to get significant penetration does far less than more people assume. The increase airspeed gives an erroneous feeling of "penetration", but what is actually happening is the canopy is dramatically increasing its decent rate. It is flying at a steeper glide angle, trading altitude for airspeed. I agree that there are times when facing into the wind and front risering will be helpful in preventing the wind from blowing you away. It does far less than most folks think, however, and is no substitute for opening and flying you canopy upwind of the target area. Remember that, when doing CRW, you can dive down behind the stack by pulling the front risers. This can be done with little or no forward progress. It is this phenominon that I am trying get across, since most folks don't have the benfit of doing lots of CRW like you do.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #19 February 25, 2004 Quote I agree that there are times when facing into the wind and front risering will be helpful in preventing the wind from blowing you away. It does far less than most folks think, however, and is no substitute for opening and flying you canopy upwind of the target area. Definitely opening upwind is the best case. But barring that, I'll still always do front risers. I can think of 2 major things at CRW camps which show the benefit of front risers - certainly on our Lightnings which are generally a flatter trim I'd say than a lot of your canopies. The first was a couple of years ago in Sebastian. There was a really bad spot, and they ended up downwind over the riser. One person made it to shore, and that person rode front-risers the entire way. Everyone who did it, landed in the brink or on a small island. The second was a few months after that. We had been doing double-16-ways (or maybe 25 ways) and we were a long way out over the swamp. 5-6 of us made it to the edge of the airport. Every one of used our front risers to get there. Most of the other people didn't, and they all landed in the swamp. In fact, I remember one CRWdog who was in the brink on the first jump, trying out front risers after watching the one guy make it back to shore, and he was one of the 5 of us who made it to the airport. Quote Remember that, when doing CRW, you can dive down behind the stack by pulling the front risers. This can be done with little or no forward progress. It is this phenominon that I am trying get across, since most folks don't have the benfit of doing lots of CRW like you do. Right. That is the difference. When I want to sink, I use a LOT of front risers. When I want to make forward distance, I use just a little front-risers. Its like rear-risers - optimal glide is usually just an inch or less of rear risers - if you do more than that you're edging on a stall usually (depends on the canopy) and you have less lift than if you weren't using them at all. With both front and rear risers you can use the "moving spot" to try and determine what is your optimal angle to get you back the farthest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #20 February 25, 2004 Herein lies the problem of generalization. For some canopies, "optimum glide" may require a steepening of the trim, while others require flattening. The design of a canopy's lineset is based on many things, and full flight is rarely the optimum glide ratio. Pilots must learn their wing if they are to use it to its full potential.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
