Slider storage, performance, ... problems

[Praetorian 1]

Ok, I did check for posts relating to this and found some information but I have specific questions

I'm assembling my first rig, my main is a Lotus 170 loaded 1:1, on all of my jumps I have used a "kill line" slider. I have questions about sliders past the links (as I have never done this, in fact I think my student gear was set up to make this impossible)

Before I get to my questions I'll describe my intended setup and would like any answer to the following questions to reference my intended setup/ make suggestions to modify it

MY SET UP
Slinks, narrow risers (I always get the numbers wrong) kill line slider, I see no reason to pay extra for stainless on the slider as the Slinks shouldn't be able to damage the slider gromets

Ok first Safety, I'm worried that the slider could come past the links on opening and PIN my toggles, if this occurs can it easily be cleared by pulling the slider past them? I'm seeing one brake knocked loose and the other trapped, can something like this happen, how do I adjust my setup to prevent this while still allowing me to pull my slider down... which leads to my other question.

Performance, a kill line slider as far as I know mostly cuts noise, pulling the slider down has the added benefits of less noise, wider riser spread (better wing shape) and less drag .. are these benefits going to be worth the trouble,(I.e. actually noticeable) or should I just get a kill line slider, and put some kind of bumper above the Slink to prevent the slider coming down

and last but not least, assuming I have this right, all I do is reach up grab the slider and force it down the risers as far as I can get it to go, and leave it behind my head?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[freeflyfree 0]

HI, tomorrow is sunday why don't you go to the DZ and.....ok ok I just saw your profile, you are in Wisconsin are you guys jumping? any way...

you have everything right, don't change the slider
use the one that your canopy came with...if you wanna get a slider-stop get it, it's up to you...anyway I can't help but notice that you are considering in "getting" a slider

Quote

or should I just get a kill line slider, and put some kind of bumper above the Slink to prevent the slider coming down

didn't your canopy come with one?

My personal opinion on your post?

Your canopy is to big and you have a low number of jumps, get bumpers and just collapse the slider and leave it up there...and please don't make the mistake of putting yourself or others in a dangerous situation under the excuse of "Oh I was working on my slider when...." it's just not acceptable...jump more...and keep on asking questions...

Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[webracer 0]

Praetorian,
Definitely buy the kill line slider, even if you leave it up on top of the links, it still reduces drag (and noise). I would buy the stainless grommets as well, they are only $25, and they last the life of the canopy. Brass can still wear fast, even with slinks. Especially on the Vectran (which is on the brakes of your Lotus), which is more abrasive than Spectra.
The slider can come down ontop of your toggles during a fast inflation. I have never had it come down so much that it passes the ring. Just push it back up. Also, be ready to turn with rear risers after opening, rather than worrying about toggles/slider issues. This skill can save your (and someone else's) life.
Normally you cannot just pull down the slider. You have to usually work it over the toggles where the rings are (the bulkiest place). You can knock a toggle loose during this if you are not careful, but it is quite difficult if you have good quality risers. I use RWS risers on everything.
I have never had the slider knock a toggle out, but have inadvertantly knocked one out pulling the slider down, you just have to be careful.
You can get the black bumpers for slinks to keep it up above the links.
Pulling it down is your choice, it takes up time and attention soon after opening, and delays your controllability check (you pull it down before you release your brakes, never after).
If you're pretty new, maybe just leave it up for a while, and when you decide to start pulling it down, open high and by yourself to practice.
I spent alot of time trying to find a good way to hold it down, but in the end (now), I just pull it down, open my chest strap, and it stays behind my head. If I was competing, I would put an elastic on my R-flap to hold it down farther, but I do not compete other than for fun.
If you pull it down, then you also have to put it back up, so it adds a few moments to your packing process.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[riggerrob 558]

First, inspect your risers to confirm that they have hoods that hide the top ends of your toggles. This is the single best way to prevent premature toggle releases. The other way is to watch what you are grabbing when you pull your slider down past your toggles.
Slider stow straps on the collar of jumpsuits or reserve top flaps have always scared me, seeing as how they might not release in a cutaway. You the type of cutaway that occurrs after your canopy is flyign fine, but some doofus spirals into you ...
Far wiser to get a pair of slider catchers sewn on your risers. Slider catchers are little tuck tabs or triangles sewn onto your risers about 3 inches above the crotch so they hold your slider at shoulder level until you walk to the packing shed.

[Scrumpot 1]

Good information in the other previous posts so far, so I will try not to be redundant & only touch upon a consideration that I have not yet seen mentioned.

1. If you are going to have slinks, make sure your toggle keepers on the risers are "hooded". What I mean by that is that the bottle-nose of your toggle is completely covered and protected when stowed. This will reduce the liklihood of a toggle being knocked loose on a brisk opening, as well as ease the travel of your slider grommets over the toggles during manual pulling-down.

Some risers have just a simple keeper band, which leaves the "nose" of the toggle exposed. This not only makes collapsing of the slider behind your head more cumbersome when pulling past your toggles, but also increases the chances of potentially bumping a toggle free, or binding one as you describe.

Hope this information, along with the other previous posts also helps!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Praetorian 1]

Quote

Your canopy is to big and you have a low number of jumps,

Too big? I'm assuming you mean its too big for me to notice a change in performance between killed and stowed slider? I hope your not telling me that I'm jumping too big a chute.... thats advice I would never expect to see

Oh on another note, yea my chute will come with a slider(haven't ordered it yet, waiting on the feds to give me my money back) it also will come with Slinks.. cuz I'm gonna order them too

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Praetorian 1]

Ok so my revised plan, Slinks, Kill line slider with stainless, no "link hats/bumprs" thus making it possible that I can pull the slider down if I wish.
Yes I do have the ability to steer with risers, and also know to clear my airspace before taking my attention off the air around me even for a second
NOW a new question ... Loosen the chest strap? I know you mean post deployment, but my question is how much?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

Ok so my revised plan, Slinks, Kill line slider with stainless, no "link hats/bumprs" thus making it possible that I can pull the slider down if I wish.
Yes I do have the ability to steer with risers, and also know to clear my airspace before taking my attention off the air around me even for a second
NOW a new question ... Loosen the chest strap? I know you mean post deployment, but my question is how much?

On pulling the slider down, my (74-jump to date) advice would be to try it before you decide you really want it as a feature. I have tried it on 4 canopies and found that on three of them, I was less comfortable once I pulled the collapsed slider down past the toggles, for reasons like visibility, toggle passing risk, and toggle, riser handle, and wrist-mount altimeter visibility.

With the chest strap, some people take it all the way off (on the theory, so far fairly well supported, that once under canopy falling out is highly unlikely) and some people just loosen it (I have done this on some rigs, for comfort.)

I think the best way to figure out if you really want to do something is to try it. (Don't die, though. )

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[freeflyfree 0]

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Too big? I'm assuming you mean its too big for me to notice a change in performance between killed and stowed slider?

Exactly, you assume correctly...

Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[billvon 2,435]

>Your canopy is to big . . .

I would disagree there. About ten years back, people would downsize while keeping an unstowed slider and non-kill-line PC. Since neither one was the standard at that point they just wouldn't think about it. Often, by getting a killable slider and a kill-line PC they'd get all the performance of going a size smaller but none of the risk. At 1:1 the difference in both kill line slider and PC is noticeable.

[freeflyfree 0]

Quote

Often, by getting a killable slider and a kill-line PC they'd get all the performance of going a size smaller but none of the risk. At 1:1 the difference in both kill line slider and PC is noticeable.

mmm interesting....
Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[davelepka 4]

First off, uless you are headed for a water landing, DO NOT unthread your chest strap. If you should find yourself in a wrap, you'll be happy your chest strap is there. Loosening it all the way to it's sew-over should be fine.

Second, here are some reason why you don't want to pull your sldier behind your head.

1. If you slider can come past your links, it will. If it is blocking your toggles, it's also in the way if you need to grab a rear riser for a quick turn after opening.

2. Time spent pulling the sldier safely past the toggles is time you should be using to scan for traffic, locate the DZ, and reviewing your flight plan.

3. The slider behind your head can limit your rearward vision.

All of these factors will become less of a problem as your experience builds. At this point keep your attention focused on a safe canopy.

Set your rig up so the slider cannot get past your links. This will eliminate any problems with the above situations. After 50 or 100 jumps with your new system, you can easily and cheaply switch over to just slinks, if you feel thats what you want.

You will not see much of a performance difference with the canopy and Wl you have indicated. Using a kill line slider above the links will be sufficent to quiet things down, and prolong the life of your lineset.

The more complicated you make things, the more likely something will go wrong. Keep things as simple as possible in the begining.

[JKT 0]

Quote

First off, uless you are headed for a water landing, DO NOT unthread your chest strap. If you should find yourself in a wrap, you'll be happy your chest strap is there. Loosening it all the way to it's sew-over should be fine.

I would have thought that undoing or loosening (too much) your chest strap before you've landed would be asking for trouble with any kind of mal, not just a wrap... what if you had to cutaway your main at any point (e.g. if a (s)link or line was to break while you were descending), wouldn't you be putting yourself at risk of at least partially falling out of your harness when your reserve deployed?

-----

Official 100 jump wonder

[davelepka 4]

Good reply, very heads up.

Loosening the chest strap untill it is not restricing the MLW is a better way to go. Loosen it until there is no longer tension, and this will give you all the improved canopy performance your harness will allow.

This may or may not create a hazard in a cut away situation. Most cut aways happen on deployment, so the chest strap would still be in it's freefall position. I am not aware of any data concerning a loosened chest strap and cut aways. My chest strap is gerenally fairly loose during freefall, and has not posed any deployment problems thus far. I would say that it's a fair assumption to make that having no chest strap (or a disconnected one) would not be a good idea in any circumstance.

Considering that most chest straps can be sufficently loosened to where they are not resrticting the MLW, and still remain threaded, it only furthers the point that unthreading is pointless.

[Praetorian 1]

Ok, so to my setup I need to add some bumpers/stoppers/hats.. what are they called? has PD come out with a suggestion as to which ones to use?

in another 50 jumps or so I can open the links, pull the hats and re-close the links (I'll ask now if I need a rigger to do this.. but either way I'd probably have my rigger check it/do this at a repack and ask my rigger to do it while I watch) the advantage to removing them is I could put them back if I change my mind, if I'm sure at the time could I just cut them off (being careful not to damage lines or links)?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[davelepka 4]

PD does make some hats for the slinks, but I've heard that they may not work (it will depend on the size of your sldier grommets). Using stainless links and bunpers for now would work for sure. A set of slinks later on is only $20.

As far as rigging goes, have a rigger do any and all assembly of your rig, along with ongoing repairs, modifications, or changes. Try to be present while it's being done and ask any questions you may have, but for now, let the pros do the work. In time you will be able to do some of it yourself (with supervision) but there is no rush.

In general with skydiving, taking the slow and cautious route will always pay off in the end. Also, skydiving is expensive, there's no way around it. Pay for quality gear and rigging, don't try to skimp in these areas. Good luck.

[mnischalke 0]

Ya know, I have slinks on my reserve and had always jumped them on my main until I got my Samurai. I used to have the slider come partway down the risers with slinks, but I no longer have that problem with the metal links/rubber bumpers. The added bonus of metal links is that I can grab and hold them a lot easier when I have gloves on, rather than grabbing the webbing (slips) or the dive loop (might get a finger hung up).

I do stow my slider with a set of Brian Germain's Slocks on my front risers. It's the safest and most convenient method I have seen so far.

For someone of limited experience, I totally advise going with metal links and bumpers, while just collapsing the slider. Leave stowing for later. It's not gonna make a ton of difference one way or another, and it will make for a no-fuss cutaway, should you need to make one.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[davelepka 4]

Keep in mind the width of your reserve risers should make slinks a non-issue when it comes to your slider.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Leave stowing for later. It's not gonna make a ton of difference one way or another, and it will make for a no-fuss cutaway, should you need to make one.

What excess concern would you have for a cut-away slider stowed vs. slider not with your set up, Mike? I don't think that I see any there at all. So instead, why wouldn't you just then recommend a set up similar to what you have? What might I be missing here? Enlighten me.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[webracer 0]

Good choice, those options are all worthwhile.
As far as the bumpers for slinks, they come with new slinks, and you can take them off later when you decide to start pulling the slider down.
As far as the chest strap, I open mine up to the sewback (on my Mirage), and to w/in 3" from the end on my Javelin (with no sewback). Not a good idea to undo the chest strap, as if you spin your main up and have to cutaway, you now have no chest strap (even loose is better than none).
I have let my Javelin come out of the buckle once by not paying attention, and I did not re-attach it for landing, but I was more careful after that with loosening it.
Get the slinks though, stay away from the rapide links (steel links). A comment was made they are easier to hang onto than slinks if you're hanging on your risers, but most people don't hang on that high anyway (3" above the toggles). The rapide links are safe, but the slinks are stronger and last as long.
The slink bumpers also don't break/crack like the rubber bumpers for rapide links.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[webracer 0]

Quote

First off, uless you are headed for a water landing, DO NOT unthread your chest strap. If you should find yourself in a wrap, you'll be happy your chest strap is there. Loosening it all the way to it's sew-over should be fine.

Second, here are some reason why you don't want to pull your sldier behind your head.

1. If you slider can come past your links, it will. If it is blocking your toggles, it's also in the way if you need to grab a rear riser for a quick turn after opening.
.
>>>This is possible (slider blocking entire rear riser), but generally not true. You do not need to grab your rear riser up at the toggle level to use it as an input.>>>
.
2. Time spent pulling the sldier safely past the toggles is time you should be using to scan for traffic, locate the DZ, and reviewing your flight plan.
.
<<>>
.
3. The slider behind your head can limit your rearward vision.
.
<<>>
.
All of these factors will become less of a problem as your experience builds. At this point keep your attention focused on a safe canopy.

Set your rig up so the slider cannot get past your links. This will eliminate any problems with the above situations. After 50 or 100 jumps with your new system, you can easily and cheaply switch over to just slinks, if you feel thats what you want.

You will not see much of a performance difference with the canopy and Wl you have indicated. Using a kill line slider above the links will be sufficent to quiet things down, and prolong the life of your lineset.

The more complicated you make things, the more likely something will go wrong. Keep things as simple as possible in the begining.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.