DOCsa 0 #26 September 28, 2004 okay it seems that none is reading what i've said. my canopy control if okay ,yes it can get better but for now i am focusing on RW not canopy control , i'm at the level that i can land stand up and nominate landing for myself or if someone says land there on this jump i land within the radias allowed. all i'm asking which most of you have in some way answered my questions is still jumping if its better to add tunnel to the training or just jumping with instructors ?? thats all i'm asking _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #27 September 28, 2004 Usually the tunnel can't hurt you other than putting you further in debt. BillVon summed it up good in this thread - it depends on what area of RW you are looking to improve upon because the tunnel can only help you in some areas. Awarness in the air is not something you can get from tunnel training, in fact it could possibly make you more complacent depending on where your concentration is once you get back in the air. In the end you can't go wrong in either direction....more air time will help increase your skills. If you have the money to spend on both, then do both. But if you don't I personally would stick to jumping only._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #28 September 28, 2004 Thanx for the info I think I’ve come to a decision that I’ll jump like a mad man and get lots of coaching and one day I’ll be big and strong like TONTO _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #29 September 28, 2004 QuoteI would like to go sometime to polish up my skills but as a beginner it might lead to a false sense of security. I recommend everyone get in the tunnel as early as possible. It saves time and money. The sooner you can get in, the less bad habits you must break. That having been said. The tunnel is not a MUST for everyone. People have learned to skydive for a long time without it. It's just that a lot of the people that learned without it are going in to the tunnel for the first time to "see how it is", and they see all the little things they could be doing different that over the years have become a problem for them. It ends up costing them twice as much to unlearn what they have been doing wrong, as it does for a new jumper to learn it right the first time. Big advantage for the new guys, at least in freefall skills. THey say you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Just put him in a 12ft circle full of air and have all his friends stare at him as he bounces off a few walls. Quote You got 20 jumps, FF like 200, and still no canopy skills. You see where I'm going... This is a very good point! Being able to turn and stop doesn't make you a good canopy pilot. That takes time and experience. Same for air awarness. Just cause a person can turn like the devil in the tunnel doesn't make you aware of what is going on around you in actual freefall. IF it is right in front of a person sure they know what is going on, but to be able to tell what is happening all around you takes time to be that calm and relaxed enough to be aware like that.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpRu 14 #30 September 28, 2004 I agree. Tunnel + coaching is way cheaper then jumps + coaching and probably more productive (no packing, more flying). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #31 September 28, 2004 QuoteYou will find that those that either spend a lot of money at the tunnel or those that make money from the tunnel are the ones that push it the most. Bo, I don't fall into either one, and I'm still a very strong supporter of the tunnelMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #32 September 28, 2004 A lot of people have thrown their opinions in... So, now I will. You are in SA....That means that the tunnel will be VERY expensive with airfare, hotels...The Rand/Greenback exchange rate. Given that, I would say you would be better to jump more. Jumping makes you an all around better jumper. You can't practice canopy flight unless you are under canopy. You can't really practice swooping, or tracking in the tunnel. Tunnel is GREAT for advancing your RW skills. If you can afford it it is a great tool to use. However, you will get more bang for your buck by jumping a lot right now. I do know a few tunnel rats that can fly circles around me, but have been hurt several times under canopy. I like the tunnel, I use it (Over 100 hours) and I coach in it (tunnel camp Oct 23-24 in Orlando). But, it is not THE answer to jumping. You miss a lot by not skydiving. Visuals for one. So, if you need to train, or are in a hurry to get RW skills. Try a tunnel camp. If you are wanting to just be a good RW guy. And all around better jumper. Jump more."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #33 September 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou will find that those that either spend a lot of money at the tunnel or those that make money from the tunnel are the ones that push it the most. Bo, I don't fall into either one, and I'm still a very strong supporter of the tunnel Yea, but you are special Mar!_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 31 #34 September 28, 2004 Quote You are in SA....That means that the tunnel will be VERY expensive with airfare, hotels...The Rand/Greenback exchange rate. DOCsa's profile is not entirely accurate with regard to his current location. He's in the UK at the moment, as can be deduced by his quote below. Quote...I was thinking if i hop on the eurotrain go to paris windtunel... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #35 September 28, 2004 QuoteDOCsa's profile is not entirely accurate with regard to his current location. He's in the UK at the moment, as can be deduced by his quote below. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...I was thinking if i hop on the eurotrain go to paris windtunel... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- didn't know that. Does the eurotrain only go from the UK to France?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #36 September 28, 2004 I’m a big believer in the tunnel but it is only a means to an end, which is to skydiver better. The tunnel is the best place to learn center point turns and how to fall slow, IMHO. The absolute points of reference are invaluable for these things. I was amazed at how much my fall rate slowed (even when I thought I was in my best slow fall) by adjusting the position of my head a few inches. I would have never noticed this in true free fall. Center points, ha, the tunnel is the place to learn. In fact I think I’ll go book myself a block of 15 minutes right now! (After getting off the phone with a melted credit card in hand....) Jumping is first but if you have the time and money the tunnel is great. Also if you have some particular problem you are trying to work on the tunnel can be great for that too. Do what you can afford. If blowing 500 or 600 euros is no big deal to you then go do it. If it is the tunnel or eating then don’t do it. What can you afford? Ron Q: What does it take to become a great skydiver. A: First earn $100,000 a year… (it's a joke people)"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 September 28, 2004 Quote Maybe my hearing is faulty, but it sure sounded to me like you think with your vast experience you have it all figured out and not just for yourself, but for the original poster of this thread as well. Yeah, maybe after your sessions with Brian -you- don't need additional canopy instruction right now, but I'm guessing that doesn't apply to most of the sub-100 jump folks out there. And I'll bet you a bag of doughnuts you still can't consistantly land and stop standing up inside a 20 meter wide circle 9 out of 10 times. Not at 44 or so jumps you can't. No freekin' way. I'm not making that bet. This weekend put me on the right course, but I still need to work at it. And ideally lose another 10lbs - I'm at a weight where I have less than ideal choices in renting options. Half of the course knowledge will be more useful next year or two rather than now. I had notions where I was going wrong, but needed video to see myself, and someone like him to help explain how to fix the mechanics. Best information for me coming out of it was - 1) loosen chest strap, 2) flying in really deep brakes, not just half, 3) keep a wider focus on the plane out, not focus on a particular spot. The psychology stuff was also rather relevent on the notion of planning for success. My point on this thread was the guy asked a clear question and without any knowledge to the contrary it was assumed he needed something entirely different. Maybe worth a footnote on the response, not a declining to answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #38 September 28, 2004 Quoteit was assumed he needed something entirely different. Maybe worth a footnote on the response, not a declining to answer. I can see where Paul is coming from. The focus now days for new jumpers is usually to get good in freefall and they really don't think to much about canopy progression. That was Pauls way of saying. Hey, Don't forget the most important part of the whole skydive! The part where we land safely and live to do it again. It may sound silly that it needs to be said, but more and more people will hurt themselves this year and from now on unless this issue is kept in the minds of us all. The tunnel is great, but it is going to make a bunch of new problems if we don't watch out.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #39 September 28, 2004 QuoteYou will find that those that either spend a lot of money at the tunnel or those that make money from the tunnel are the ones that push it the most. I don't spend a lot or make hardly anything off of the tunnel. I love it plan and simple. I put together camps for people and (believe it or not) don't make a dime. I pay the coaches, but I do it for the fun of it. The tunnel is a valuable tool that we shoud all use if we can afford it. The playing field has changed and is going to change more as they build more tunnels. There are going to be two "camps" in skydiving. The Tunnel Guys and the No Tunnel Guys. Sad but true. DOn't knock the new jumpers for being able to go to the tunnel and progress faster then any of us did. We as more experienced jumpers need to look out for them when it comes to the canopy stuff. Be smarter then them when it comes to letting them on bigger loads still. They need to gain the awarness over time. The tunnel will never replace that. Exits and the like will still need to be learned. I still believe the sooner you can get in the tunnel the better. Costs less over time. The problem is getting more experienced jumpers to admit that they can learn something in the tunnel. I see it all the time. Jumper X with 3000 jumps and gets in the tunnel and can't fall straight down like they thought they could. They have there butts sticking up in the air and realize they never really learned how to arch. Very humbling for a lot of them and it is a touchy situation to deal with. Example. Last week after the big ways at Perris. A bunch of those folks bought tunnel time. A few newer jumpers where heard asking "I thought you had to be good to get on those big ways?" A few of the big way participants where heard to say "I thought I knew what I was doing until I got in the tunnel" I won't name names, but some of the names you see all the time in Parachutist realized they had a lot more to learn about flying there bodies. There is a new learning curve going on. The way we skydive is changing and like it or not it is happening in the tunnel.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #40 September 28, 2004 No doubt - the tunnel does help. No argument there, and if someone has the money to be better than me by either jumping more or using the tunnel, have at it! I've done the tunnel and found how humbling it can be when you realize the bad habits you have. But as you mentioned - even with bad habits some of those people are on some tough dives and get invited to other ones, including record attempts. The time they have in the air just can't be beat with everything else it entails. The issue I have is when people tell anyone "you have to do the tunnel! It is the only way you can get better." You know better than I do, how that isn't true. The tunnel should be used as just another tool to help get better, but it should not be the main way of teaching skills. I know I wouldn't want a tunnel rat with amazing skills and very few jumps to be on a big way with me. And there will be people that claim "But I have 100 hours of tunnel time so I should be ok on this jump!" There needs to be a balance, which you did hint to in your reply. I don't know if all of these tunnels being built will be around for a long time. The one in Eloy will be an interesting to watch as far as an investment since it seems it may mostly be supported by jumpers instead of tourists. I would also be curious on how the Perris tunnel is doing on ROI and the profit margin and if they are making as much in thier first year as the Orlando tunnel did. With only about 33,000 active jumpers in this country I don't see windtunnels happening all over the place. There will be two camps, those that can afford to travel to a tunnel and those that can't. Programs like AFP and coaches are going to be the best bet for the latter folks. Don't get me wrong, I like the tunnel. It did help me. But I doubt you will see me making a trip just to do tunnel time. If there happens to be a tunnel nearby and I have some cash, I'll buy some time._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #41 September 29, 2004 i was in SA but have moved to London UK for the time being so i'm now a brit i miss the Sun and fresh air , okay so now i'm even more confuced as to which to choose ? I won't have to stop jumping but i'll only beable to jump 3 time this month and 3 times next month to afford to go to the tunnel for half to 1 hour in the tunnel for the weekend _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 September 29, 2004 Quoteokay so now i'm even more confuced as to which to choose ? I won't have to stop jumping but i'll only beable to jump 3 time this month and 3 times next month to afford to go to the tunnel for half to 1 hour in the tunnel for the weekend so do i go to the tunnel and jump little or jump less with more instructor jumps Jump more. The tunnel is a great way to improve your flying skills. But: A. Skydiving is what it is all about. Its about being in the air and under canopy. Being at the DZ. I have both a pilots license and skydive. Back 10 years ago I was learning both at the same time. Then I had to make a choice. I could spend 100.00 to rent a plane for two hours and fly and get a hamburger somewhere, or I could spend 100.00 and make 9 jumps. Both cost the same, but I spent maybe 4 hours for 100.00 on the plane vs. all weekend for 100.00 to skydive. I met more people and had more fun for the 100.00 skydiving. The same applys to the tunnel. You can spend 15 min in the tunnel, or maybe 2 full weekends of jumping. That is a simple answer for me. Plus you will work on canopy flight and beer drinking. B. Safety. Jumpers who don't jump much and are not that current are more likley to get hurt than current jumpers. Being current is the largest factor in safety. So be safer and jump more. All of this is my opinion, but I have been using the tunnel since 1997 and have done over 20 hours this year."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justdumi 0 #43 September 29, 2004 Ok Gary listen up closely ... You seem rather confused. Tell you what...because of limited resources (money and time) and the fact that i know you, have seen you jump and we have similar profiles..this is my advice to you. UK is getting cold right now. The weather is getting horrible and you risk going out to the DZ only to sit on your butt all day (already money wasted and time). Get onto the load and the temperatures are starting to become un-user friendly...its too cold to focus or to co-ordinate body movements..and visers dont have wind screen wipers!! Go to the tunnel in Paris dude. Bottom line is that skydiving in this part of the world is seasonal for obvious reasons..the seasonal weather changes are hectic. Rather than be too macho and attempt frozen jumps...take life easy in the off season to hone your RW skills in the tunnel in Paris. A complete skydive has many facets to it and as long as you are progressing in one of them...it cant be bad. If you feel its time to give that RW some attention in a more learner friendly environment..at this time i say WT boet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craig_b 0 #44 September 29, 2004 I admit I am very new but fortunately we have the newest wind tunnel right at our DZ in Perris, CA. I think it depends on what exactly you "suck" at in RW. If it is getting in and docking I think jumping is the best way to learn since you really can't achieve that in a wind tunnel. But if it is once you are close and docking, or getting bumped around, or losing it in a cross over, or just manuevering in the group a wind tunnel can give you great learning ability. We have singles, two way and 4 ways in our tunnel that are currently "brushing up" for the nationals coming next week. A good coach is imperative. Remember, in just a 10 minute time slot you have the equivalent of 10 jumps! Blue Skies _________________________________________ once you've experienced flight, you forever walk the ground with your head pointed skyward. There you've been and there you long to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justdumi 0 #45 September 29, 2004 Imagine having the world championships in a wind tunnel? Interesting concept..."The International Indoor Skydiving World Cup". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craig_b 0 #46 September 29, 2004 I can just imagine the size of a wind tunnel for the 16-way competition! Ours is a 12 foot diameter and will fit a 4-way of experienced flyers. As you say, an interesting concept. During the nationals I intend to visit the tunnel and watch them up close while they are practicing and then hope to catch the same teams in the air with good binoculars. _________________________________________ once you've experienced flight, you forever walk the ground with your head pointed skyward. There you've been and there you long to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcandalysse 0 #47 September 29, 2004 From what I understand, nationals teams are NOT allowed in the tunnel once the draw has been distributed. There are some dz.com posts on this from last year....you can look them up... I'm sure you will find the teams in the tunnel before then! marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craig_b 0 #48 September 29, 2004 Thank you. But Darn! Being new to the sport has me at a disadvantage for such information. _________________________________________ once you've experienced flight, you forever walk the ground with your head pointed skyward. There you've been and there you long to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #49 September 29, 2004 QuoteI know I wouldn't want a tunnel rat with amazing skills and very few jumps to be on a big way with me. This is already happening. IF you feel that way you shouldn't attend any of the Big Way camps or a lot of the upcoming bigway events. The big ways we just did at Perris had 2 or 3 people on it that have relatively low jump numbers and lots of tunnel time on it. They displayed good skills and awarness at the camps and are safe. Not only that, but they displayed good enough skills to get invited on some rather challenging dives that many people were turned away from. I guess what I am saying is they are here and they aren't going anywhere. Some will get it and others won't. It's like when I, or you started. The older jumpers used to say we were dangerous. We all need to be on round canopies. When I started they made students use round reserves still. It was stupid to let a student use a square reserve. Times change. Some of the Tunnel guys will be really good and others will be dangerous. God and Darwin will take care of the others.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #50 September 29, 2004 duni i think your right i'll jump my ass off and then in 3 months when i can't i'll tunnel my ass off i win both ways then yah me _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
