Front and rear riser question

[lindell 0]

Can anyone tell me how to get better front and rear riser imput from my sabre 170? Right now, I get better performance from my brake imput and I'm sure it's lack of knowlede about my canopy. When I try to do front riser turns it's like doing pull ups with very little results.

[GoatBoy 0]

It's all about the trim of the canopy. Some are set up with very strong front riser pressure and basically you can do a pull up on it and not effect the canopy much. I have never jumped a sabre, but it is not a parachute designed for high speed landings so there is probably not much response from the fronts.

Flying Hellfish #31
"I'm not allowed to talk about it till after the trial"
www.SkydiveTecumseh.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

it is not a parachute designed for high speed landings so there is probably not much response from the fronts.

Well...ok, sortof.

I've seen the piss swooped out of "old" sabres putting some jumpers jumping "high performance" canopies to shame. Hell, Scott Miller will swoop the piss out of a student Navigator...

I would say it has to do much more with technique (although even the best canopy pilots wouldn't be able to out swoop more modern wings with a Sabre when flown against someone of similar skill).

Not only that, but we're also assuming that 1. this jumper is seaking real life coaching which the internet is no substitute for, 2. this jumper has read everything he can get his hands on (such as Germain's book for starters) and 3. he has his brake lines let out enough to execute a front riser maneuver without deflecting the tail of his canopy thus creating buffeting and stealing performance.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[repeter 0]

read the book the canopy and its pilot by brian germain.. its a must read..

[AdamLanes 1]

Quote

I'm sure it's lack of knowlede about my canopy.

I load my Sabre 170 at a much lower wing loading than you, and I get great response from it. According to Performance Designs, you are loading your canopy at the expert level. I recommend you get immediate canopy coaching from a qualified instructor.

[Avion 0]

If you read Brian's book, he explains that with canopies that have high front riser pressure, you use a little toggle input first then pull on the front risers. This deloads the pressure from the front risers so that you get more response from you input.

But what do I know, I've got a big ZERO jumps

And I must say, at 100 jumps, I hope your trying this stuff far away from the ground. I might have little experience, but I've done alot of reading, if you know what I mean.

[Antidote 0]

Heh yeah, I saw JC taking up a Sabre 1 190 and outswooping some local Skygods in Russia .

I kinda went 'alllllrighty...when i can do *that*, I'm ready for an elliptica'l .

Was pretty impressive.

[btucker 0]

Don't do anything low. Land straight in, always watch for other traffic. You should talk to a local instructor / coach that you trust. Plenty of people made craters playing around with risers too low, plenty more frapped in listening to me!



I reckon be very smooth on the front risers, pull down gently. Then the pressure doesn't seem as bad. Reaching up higher makes if feel easier.

Some guru wrote an article about dimensioning returns vs danger of front risers on larger canopies (like ours) -> So so it's not practical to turn the canopy more than a 90, maybe 180, on fronts. A nice long gentle carve is what rocks my boat.


AggieDave gives advice in another thread:

Quote

try going to your front risers after holding in 1/2 brakes for a bit. It tends to lighten your front riser pressure

I would insert my standard warning here

Sabre's have a great stall on rear risers try it out, I guarantee it will get your attention. <- You definetely want to talk to someone in the know before trying that out. Spot for your reserve to

For long spots, I push my rears apart - you can also twist them.



Be safe and please talk to someone local. Blues Benno

[rustywardlow 0]

If you don't know much about a Sabre then how can you talk about its landings. A Sabre 170 can come in very fast. It has alot to do with the pilot not the canopy.

[rustywardlow 0]

At your exsperience level I would be very cautious about front riser input unless you are playing around up high. As for rear risers. Just get some rear riser loops sewn on the same as front riser loops. When it comes to a really long spot they come in very handy and can make the differance between making it back or landing out.

[andyflylife 0]

I used to jump a Falcon 195 loaded at 0.9 and now jump a Sabre 150 loaded at 1.1. The risers get easier to use with more load but it also has much to do with technique. For using fronts i find the easiest way is to fly in deep brakes, let the canopy slow right down then go to full drive and quickly grab the risers/dive loops, you have a few seconds whilst the speed builds of easy riser pressure. Also for turning i find that lifting your leg in the harness on the side you want to turn allows for some extra movement and input.
My rear risers do seem harder to use on the sabre than they did on my Falcon for some reason, but the sabre seems to get back from deep spots better on brakes anyway which is cool!

Hope this helps. Practice high up, stay safe and have fun dude!

Blue skies

"swooper 24/7, 365!"
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[johnny1488 1]

Do what everyone else said, read get coaching, blah blah blah

Are you pulling your slider down and letting out your chest strap?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[lindell 0]

I really appreciate your advice and as well as everyone else's. Trust me I'm not doing anything low other than landing and the sabre is great on landings. I am just looking for advice on a direction to go, hard advice, reading material, ect. I'm trying to increase my skill level slowly, I am 45 yrs old and plan on being here for a long time. Thanks agian.

[Fast 0]

Quote

Can anyone tell me how to get better front and rear riser imput from my sabre 170? Right now, I get better performance from my brake imput and I'm sure it's lack of knowlede about my canopy. When I try to do front riser turns it's like doing pull ups with very little results.

I would say that it has less to do with a lack of knowledge with your canopy than it does with a general lack of experience and skill. The canopy can swoop awesome with the right pilot at the controls. I am learning on a Saber170 and have had lots of fun with it. Some people recomended brian's book and I think that would help you out a lot. Take a canopy controll class next time one is offered. Play around up high out of traffic and you will find that you can learn a lot.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Lindell

I first started swooping on a Sabre2 190, but it was my old Sabre2 170 that I really learned on and set the foundation of where I am today (and I'm still learning and evolving as a swooper). Plus I too am in my 40s (41) so I can appreciate your age comments. As long as you are physically able to jump, there is no reason why some of us old farts can show up some of those younger ... punks (I really do look and act younger than my true age).

Learning to swoop takes hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy we jump before we downsize to the next smaller canopy size and you must remember to start over from scratch every time you start jumping a new canopy. It's not something which is going to happen overnite. But it's also important to play with your canopy up high in order to learn the performance characteristics and learn things up high before you ever bring them down close to the ground. Now Brian Germaine's book has been brought up and this book does have some excellent information in it (any serious canopy control pilot should read it). But at some point in time you're going to need to seek some canopy control coaching and hopefully in this coaching you will receive the instruction you need to learn more about swooping. I have taken canopy coaching on 4 different occasions now and the instruction I received was worth it's weight in gold.

Anyway one of the things you are going to need to learn is the performance envelope of your canopy. And keep in mind that the performance envelope will change once you change canopies, change your wing loading and/or change where you jump (ie: jumping at altitude here in Colorado is different than jumping at sea level). Plus also remember that with a larger wing, the front riser pressure will be more noticible than on a smaller canopy. Anyway, while playing up high enter into a front riser dive and try to hold it for as long as you can possibly hold it (it's hard to describe the turn rate you need to use here on the net, but maybe try to emulate the turn rate that you see of good swoopers in person or of swoopers on video). Sooner or later, the canopy is going to load up to a point where you can no longer hold it and you'll let the riser up. Let the canopy recover by itself and try to determine not only how much altitude did you lose in these front riser turns, but also try to determine how much time it took (it should take about 6-8 seconds to load up to where you can't hold it any more). Continue to do this drill time and time again (up high) keeping the turn rate constant until you gather good reliable and consistent data as to how much altitude your canopy loses and what is the time period. You will then be armed with the appropriate performance characteristics of your canopy and you will no longer be playing that guessing game while trying to learn to swoop.

Of couse this is the internet and I may not be explaining myself in the best way for you to comprehend. So when possible seek coaching from a reputable canopy control instructor. It's amazing what some of those guys can teach us.

Good luck, be smart and seek coaching. It's worth it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over