Flying backwards

[Ron 7]

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Ron, I think your argument is very valid. However, it needs to be taken up with at least RWS and Eclipse rather than AggieDave.

Yeah, but they don't post here

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I have Vector II and Eclipse ratings, and both the owner's manuals contain the following in the description of equipment in the "Harness and Container" section:

B. Reserve Static-line Lanyard (RSL):

RSL can be released prior to landing in the event of high ground winds.

The key being CAN. I can't see a saftey benefit...I can see a cost benefit, but not a saftey benefit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mfrese 0]

Hey, Bill Booth posts here all the time...and I've got Jess's number on my cell, I'll give him a buzz and we'll get this shit fixed right away.

Seriously, you're right...and I asked Jess about this when I went through the Vector course a couple years ago. Basically, he was looking at it from the Skydive Monterey Bay perspective...lot of smart tandem masters, few solo jumpers, generally high winds (15-25) during most of the season. Getting dragged (or launched) was a bigger concern than a canopy collision at low altitude, in his opinion. It still ends up being the TMs call...I personally detach it at about 1500', particularly since I've ended up getting launched about 15 feet with a 160 pound guy landing in my lap. Didn't get dragged, but I was ready to chop that sucker if I moved another inch. I was certainly never concerned about the cost to repack the freakin' reserve, but I'm sure that enters into the mind of every DZO who discusses this with his staff...

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Yesterday I ended up in a very scary situation that involved being blown backwards under canopy.

Hummm....
I happen to have another article in the works, but I doubt if I'll be able to finish it before safety day.

As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

So you can look at a draft version.

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I did also consider turning to land with the wind, ......

This really bugs me, why would you even consider this???
The only reason I can guess about is that you wanted to see the ground moving as you would when winds are less than your canopy's airspeed.
see also Get-Home-itis
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.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[kelel01 1]

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This really bugs me, why would you even consider this???
The only reason I can guess about is that you wanted to see the ground moving as you would when winds are less than your canopy's airspeed.

That's probably right. But to be fair, I said I considered it, and decided it was much too risky. People do land downwind on occasion, but hopefully not in 25 mph winds, and not in a rocky, overgrown landing area. So I knew after a couple of seconds of thought that that was NOT the right way to go.

And yeah, that picture is what my pattern looked like.

Kelly

[Decibel 0]

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Also, you must remember, since its a tandem, I touch the crystal ball (which is attatched to the RSL) atleast twice before exit and once in freefall during my handle touches, so I know exactly where it is.

Crystal ball? That another name for the reserve handle?

[Ron 7]

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Crystal ball? That another name for the reserve handle?

On the Vector tandem the RSL has a big round clear ball that is attached to it. Pulling this big round clear ball will disconect the RSL..Pulling it up away from your body will pull the pin on the reserve. Kinda like another ripcord, but on the right side of the harness.

Crystal ball sounds neater to say, and it is shorter than Big, Round, Clear Ball that disconnects my RSL and that can be used to deploy the reserve.

BTW it is the reason I like Vector Tandems better than any other...You can pull the main or reserve with either hand.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[relyon 0]

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If 120mph wind takes 1000ft to open it, how would 40mph wind (I'm hoping you're not jumping in more than 40!) open it up on the spot? Even if the freebag was pulled off I somehow doubt the canopy would inflate.

It most certainly will. Canopy transfers are an example of just this (ie. deploy the reserve, wait a couple seconds for it to clear the freebag and inflate, then chop the main), though I strongly recommend against them unless your life depends on it.

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Maybe next time you're due for a repack, you can wait for a really windy day, tie your rig to a post in a field, and pull the ripcord. See if the winds are even strong enough to pull the bag out of the container...

This is a very good suggestion! I think I'll plan on doing (and videoing) just this at my next repack if conditions allow. Ironically, I just got repacked two weeks ago and the day I dropped it off the winds were howling. DOH!

Bob

[bmcd308 0]

Shortly off student status but still under a student canopy, I seized the opportunity to learn a good bit about jumping in questionable weather, off field landings, and downhill landings, all on the same jump.

Winds were iffy but within reason going up but were probably 25 mph and steady by the time I opened. The spot was short, so I could not make it back. Looking between my feet, I realized I was going backwards. I picked a big field and held the best I could on the upwind side of it until about a thousand feet, when I made a 360 to get over the field. I then held into the wind and waited for gravity to do its thing. At about 12 feet, I did what I had always done, flaring the canopy with a complete toggle stroke. My probelm was that I was landing on a hill that was going down behind me. The canopy planed out and flew backwards for a while. By the time it sunk in, I was a good bit over the ground and had a less than dignified landing in a heap. Then the wind dragged me for a while until I got the canopy under control.

Many lessons learned.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[billvon 2,435]

>It most certainly will. Canopy transfers are an example of just this . . .

That's a bit different. In a canopy transfer situation, just the weight of the reserve can cause the reserve to deploy i.e. it will drop to the end of its lines (with some assistance from the PC) and pop the final stows with a combination of its weight and drag from the PC. In a ground deployment situation, the PC has to generate enough force while lying on the ground to pull the reserve to the end of its lines and unstow the locking stows before it will inflate.

Next time it's really windy I'm doing a test.

[relyon 0]

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That's a bit different. In a canopy transfer situation, just the weight of the reserve can cause the reserve to deploy i.e. it will drop to the end of its lines (with some assistance from the PC) and pop the final stows with a combination of its weight and drag from the PC. In a ground deployment situation, the PC has to generate enough force while lying on the ground to pull the reserve to the end of its lines and unstow the locking stows before it will inflate.

I'll agree it's not quite the same and I've seen videos that show the effect you describe (including Chico's Rantoul wrap vid where the reserve was deployed by the centrifugal force of the spin he was in). The one canopy transfer I actually saw deployed straight back, so it can happen either way.

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Next time it's really windy I'm doing a test.

Yeah, I'm all for that. Let us know what you find out. I'd do it myself asap, but I'm not a rigger and it's good for 100+ days now assuming I don't need to use it before then.

Bob

[Kris 0]

[replyNext time it's really windy I'm doing a test.

[billvon 2,435]

>I'll be sure to get video.

Cool! (And I figure you know this anyway, but just in case - don't put the legstraps/cheststrap on!)

[The111 1]

When I suggested this I said to secure your rig to a post or something somehow... the risks associated with wearing the rig should be obvious (well, actually whether or not it's risky depends on the result of the test, I tend to think it wouldn't be risky).

But... another thought has come up. Suppose that those who say the reserve would inflate are right. So your rig is tied to a post and the reserve is fully inflated and all the lines are under tension. Now what? Do you sit there all day and watch your rig get dirty, or is there some graceful way to recontain your reserve after it's inflated? I'm guessing you could just walk up to the topskin and bearhug/collapse it, once you get it under control you could stuff it in your shirt or something and detach your rig from the "post" or whatever it's secured on.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mfrese 0]

I've got a better solution...I bought an OLD Talon from a friend who's a little down on his luck recently, with the intention of doing something interesting like a dummy drop to test the CYPRES firing altitude. Sounds like this would be more interesting, and much easier to prepare (not to mention with less potential to scare the shit out of people mistaking the dummy for a real jumper). Hoping it gets windy this weekend, and we will definitely get video.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[Kris 0]

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Cool! (And I figure you know this anyway, but just in case - don't put the legstraps/cheststrap on!)

Yeah, I think I've got that part figured out.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Kris 0]

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When I suggested this I said to secure your rig to a post or something somehow... the risks associated with wearing the rig should be obvious (well, actually whether or not it's risky depends on the result of the test, I tend to think it wouldn't be risky).

But... another thought has come up. Suppose that those who say the reserve would inflate are right. So your rig is tied to a post and the reserve is fully inflated and all the lines are under tension. Now what? Do you sit there all day and watch your rig get dirty, or is there some graceful way to recontain your reserve after it's inflated? I'm guessing you could just walk up to the topskin and bearhug/collapse it, once you get it under control you could stuff it in your shirt or something and detach your rig from the "post" or whatever it's secured on.

This brings up another point...why aren't people controlling their canopy after they land on windy days?

No matter how windy it is when I jump, as soon as I'm down I pivot and start reeling in a toggle. The canopy dives into the ground and collapses. I've even done that with a demo canopy with airlocks.

Hell, I was taught that maneuver in my first jump course and I teach it to my students. Here in OK, it's a necessity.

Almost everyone I've ever seen get knocked down & drug due to winds simply wasn't controlling their canopy. I've watched people do that time and time again. The exceptions were people who had mistimed their flare and didn't stand-up, but I watched one person in 27+ winds not get dragged because they dropped one toggle and reeled the other in.

Just my $0.02,

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[billvon 2,435]

>Suppose that those who say the reserve would inflate are right. So your rig is tied to a post . . .

Don't tie it to a post!! Just wear it on your back and pull the handle. If it actually starts to inflate just grab the toggles. If it does inflate it will come off your back, and you'll be sitting there holding the toggles which will collapse it.

[AggieDave 6]

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This brings up another point...why aren't people controlling their canopy after they land on windy days?

I've seen folks fall over and start getting dragged before they can react. I've also seen folks going backward before they even touched down, so they're not really in a position to control their canopy either.

Never mind tandems. Trying to turn, run around the other side of the canopy, real in a toggle all while having a passenger is like a damn 3-legged sack race. It looks fun, but is harder then it sounds.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[The111 1]

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Bill,

Winds here are forecasted to be 30+ this weekend. I'm due for a repack and will gladly use my Mirage for this one as I don't think it will work either.

I'll be sure to get video.

BUMP... did you or anyone else ever try this test?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[kelel01 1]

Oooooh, that justs reminded me. Talk to some older jumpers from Skydive Atlanta-- they told me a story about Mike Granims from SDA cutting away in high winds with his RSL connected, and he got dragged across SDA's HUGE ASS TARMAC by his INFLATED reserve. It doesn't even seem all that unlikely to me anyway, though. The spring-loaded PC is sure gonna help that reserve get out. Just a story I heard, that doesn't sound ridiculous to me in the least.

[murps2000 86]

This brings up another point...why aren't people controlling their canopy after they land on windy days?

No matter how windy it is when I jump, as soon as I'm down I pivot and start reeling in a toggle. The canopy dives into the ground and collapses. I've even done that with a demo canopy with airlocks.***

This is exactly what I've been thinking as I've read this thread. I've done this on a tandem (after flying into the landing area backwards, too). It can be done. You don't have to run around the canopy either. You & the passenger may fall on your asses, but the canopy can be shagged pretty quickly if you prepare yourself for it and reel in a steering line at touchdown. And I would make every attempt to avoid landing directly upwind of tarmac to begin with. Cutaway? Maybe if the canopy hooked a spinning prop or the bumper of a passing car, but otherwise I don't get it.

But then again, I guess it is pretty windy in Texas..

[Kris 0]

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Bill,

Winds here are forecasted to be 30+ this weekend. I'm due for a repack and will gladly use my Mirage for this one as I don't think it will work either.

I'll be sure to get video.

BUMP... did you or anyone else ever try this test?

Unfortunately (or not, heh) the winds didn't get bad enough that weekend to follow through.

However, at my house the next day, I took an old springloaded PC I had and threw it in 25+ MPH winds. The results were what I thought....it never caught much air, it fell to the gound, and just layed there. The wind just blew the mesh around a bit but not with any force.

Sorry I don't have anything more official, but I still think that with a standard RSL the reserve isn't going to do anything but stay in the freebag.

Cutting away a main on a SkyHook equipped rig is another animal entirely though.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™