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Lindsey 0
So its nice to kind of mentor people, give them a hand, explain safety to them. Imagine all these people, the possible buyers of your gear, as a bunch of your buddies. Thinking about it from that perspective, how could you possibly, in good conscious, sell someone with 100 jumps a stiletto 107 for example?
I wouldn't go so far as to sell a really new jumper a tiny canopy, but at the same time, once someone has been in the sport a few years and has a couple hundred jumps then I assume that they can be responsible for themselves. If they wanted me as a mentor, then I assume they'd approach me in that regard. I prefer to relate to friends as people who are more capable of making decisions for themselves than I am.
I think the difference with a person who is really new in the sport is that they likely haven't been around long enough to develop very good judgment about what gear they should be jumping.
Peace~
linz
I wouldn't go so far as to sell a really new jumper a tiny canopy, but at the same time, once someone has been in the sport a few years and has a couple hundred jumps then I assume that they can be responsible for themselves. If they wanted me as a mentor, then I assume they'd approach me in that regard. I prefer to relate to friends as people who are more capable of making decisions for themselves than I am.
I think the difference with a person who is really new in the sport is that they likely haven't been around long enough to develop very good judgment about what gear they should be jumping.
Peace~
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
So in that sort of sense, if you see a friend of yours who is waaay drunk going to get in their car and drive home, do you just assume that they know better and not interfere with their decision making?
Thats kind of how I feel when I hear my friends talking about downsizing too quickly, it seems like they just get caught up in the moment and forget about common sense sometimes.
I definitely think that in sketchy situtations where people are downsizing too fast, that the more people who let them know they think that is a bad idea and dangerous, the better. Maybe someone will get through. And then on the other end, if everyone was a responsible seller, then we could hopefully begin to see a downward trend in the number of low-hook turn fatalities each year.
-Karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Thats kind of how I feel when I hear my friends talking about downsizing too quickly, it seems like they just get caught up in the moment and forget about common sense sometimes.
I definitely think that in sketchy situtations where people are downsizing too fast, that the more people who let them know they think that is a bad idea and dangerous, the better. Maybe someone will get through. And then on the other end, if everyone was a responsible seller, then we could hopefully begin to see a downward trend in the number of low-hook turn fatalities each year.
-Karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Lindsey 0
So in that sort of sense, if you see a friend of yours who is waaay drunk going to get in their car and drive home, do you just assume that they know better and not interfere with their decision making?
If a friend is drunk, then I can assume that my judgment is better than theirs (assuming I'm not drunk too), and I would do my best to keep them from driving. If they were buying a tiny canopy while drunk...or wanting to jump that canopy while drunk....I'd assume likewise and I'd at least try to interfere.
I'd give my friend, or another jumper, my opinion and would express my concerns if I felt he/she was doing something that was dangerous. BUT I would still respect that person's ability to make decisions for himself. I would not assume that I knew what was best for him/her in most situations.
Peace~
linz
If a friend is drunk, then I can assume that my judgment is better than theirs (assuming I'm not drunk too), and I would do my best to keep them from driving. If they were buying a tiny canopy while drunk...or wanting to jump that canopy while drunk....I'd assume likewise and I'd at least try to interfere.
I'd give my friend, or another jumper, my opinion and would express my concerns if I felt he/she was doing something that was dangerous. BUT I would still respect that person's ability to make decisions for himself. I would not assume that I knew what was best for him/her in most situations.
Peace~
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteIf a friend is drunk, then I can assume that my judgment is better than theirs (assuming I'm not drunk too), and I would do my best to keep them from driving.
If I have 1600 jumps and my friend has 400. I can assume that my judgement regarding assessing their skills and canopy choice is better than theirs. I would do my best to keep them from getting that canopy.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
I think you missed my point...
I was trying to draw a comparison between drinking and driving and the craving to go faster and faster, which is not necesarily a rational thought process. Even when people are sober, they are not necesarily using good judgement. They could be in the pursuit of a bigger rush, and not really using the ability to think ahead and consider all of the possibilities.
Its like a kid in a candy store, they may go around and pig out on all sorts of stuff, and come down with a stomach ache later. However, ideally the kid will get some help from their parents who know better, and can tell the kid that they need to stop eating so much candy because they will get a stomach ache.
Skydivers without much experience are almost exactly like kids in a candy store. Often times, they don't use their best judgement because they are still learning and don't know any better. Even at several hundred jumps they are definitely still developing good judgement, even at a 1200 jumps I am still developing better judgement!
Some lessons take a long time to learn, but friends and mentors can and should take a pro-active role in preventing incidents caused by things like downsizing too quickly.
-Karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
I was trying to draw a comparison between drinking and driving and the craving to go faster and faster, which is not necesarily a rational thought process. Even when people are sober, they are not necesarily using good judgement. They could be in the pursuit of a bigger rush, and not really using the ability to think ahead and consider all of the possibilities.
Its like a kid in a candy store, they may go around and pig out on all sorts of stuff, and come down with a stomach ache later. However, ideally the kid will get some help from their parents who know better, and can tell the kid that they need to stop eating so much candy because they will get a stomach ache.
Skydivers without much experience are almost exactly like kids in a candy store. Often times, they don't use their best judgement because they are still learning and don't know any better. Even at several hundred jumps they are definitely still developing good judgement, even at a 1200 jumps I am still developing better judgement!
Some lessons take a long time to learn, but friends and mentors can and should take a pro-active role in preventing incidents caused by things like downsizing too quickly.
-Karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Quoteonce someone has been in the sport a few years and has a couple hundred jumps then I assume that they can be responsible for themselves.
With the scope of canopies available today, a few years and couple hundred jumps is a newbie.
The canopy that prompted this post, a 107 Stiletto, would require a few years and a couple hundred jumps to even be worth checking their references. Any less experience shouldn't even be a consideration.
Lindsey 0
Maybe you're right. I just believe very strongly that adults are capable of making their own decisions. I try to respect that in all of my relationships. I do voice my opinions, often very stubbornly, but in the end I try not to force my opinions on other, equally intelligent, adults. Where gear and experience is involved, I'm not sure where the magic cut-off is. I do think the person with more experience has a responsibility to steer a newer jumper in a reasonable direction. But we each have to make our own decisions, I believe.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteI just believe very strongly that adults are capable of making their own decisions. I try to respect that in all of my relationships. I do voice my opinions, often very stubbornly, but in the end I try not to force my opinions on other, equally intelligent, adults.
Agreed.
I know people like to flame me about my comment, but truly I cannot take it back. I am not anyone's mommy. If someone approaches me asking if I think the container/canopy is right for them with x#jumps, etc, i'd give my opinion. If I knew a jumper to be unsafe or to have what I consider too low a number of jumps for some gear, I would likely make a call there... but you must understand that I downsized quite quickly, and my cutoff point with selling gear might be very different than yours (yours is used generally here, not aimed at anyone in particular.)
That said, the girl I sold my gear to did ask some questions, which I answered honestly. I got that container with the pd126 when I had 20+ jumps, I have flown the reserve, and I have flown the main she was putting in there which she was already flying. So, I gave my opinion based on my experience. I cannot say what is right for someone else, only for myself, and fwiw she seemed very safety conscious, had her rigger check the container, was jumping a Spectre 150, asked lots of questions. But, if she didn't ask a bunch of questions, and I didn't know her jump numbers, I still would have sold her the container because I bought the container when I had less jumps than her.
As far as selling a main, I can't say for certain that I wouldn't ask a person a few questions first before selling because I am not sure yet about that. But, I don't feel obligated to do so, and certainly feel no obligation to call someone's dropzone for stats. People need to be responsible for themselves. If they aren't responsible enough to ask questions, get training, and make responsible purchases, then I probably won't be the death of them, their own stupidity might but I feel no responsibility for that.
Angela.
Dagny 0
QuoteIf I have 1600 jumps and my friend has 400. I can assume that my judgement regarding assessing their skills and canopy choice is better than theirs.
This is one area that I have to disagree. There is something to be said for experience. However, I don't believe that jump numbers alone are an adequate way to determine someone's knowledge or ability to judge another's skills or canopy choice. The information or advice that you can supply from personal experience over the jumper with only a quarter of your total jumps is invaluable, but I think that the numbers aren't necessarily indicative of someone's right to give advice. Just like earning a license doesn't necessarily mean anything. I mean, some people got lucky and got their paperwork in for a D license before the requirements changed and have it with far fewer jumps than I'll need to achieve the same thing.
Given that skydiving is both a physical and mental sport, I believe that experience combined with currency, licensure and certifications held, and training (through books, classes, etc) are far more important qualifiers for judging and advising. Therefore, I would value the opinion of my AFF instructor over some random D licensed fun jumper on the dz in skydiving issues. I would value the opinion of the person who sells and deals with gear for a living over someone who doesn't.
Other than holding certifications and maintaining licensure and currency, what is in place to measure someone's ability to give good advice? Because I don't think jump numbers are good enough. That 400 jump skydiver that you feel you have superior judgement than may be more current than you or be more well read than you or have participated in more training (canopy control courses or otherwise) than you. It's acceptable to share what your experience has taught you, but I have to draw the line at using numbers as the prime delineator in judgement ability.
As for selling gear, I have a friend who is on gear that some would consider aggressive. But, this person was given a recommendation and approval by a skydiver with the right qualifications. Do I agree with it? Not really, but I also tend towards being conservative. But the approval came from someone I also trust, so who am I to say it's right or wrong?
Long story short, I'm basically saying that until the USPA publishes guidelines dictating acceptable wingloading risk for skydivers with specific levels of experience there is too much variability in what is recommended or considered appropriate for each individual. Perhaps they have approval from their dzo or an instructor or maybe they just want to buy the canopy at the screamin' good deal you're selling at knowing they won't jump it till they're ready. Or, what if you do ask tons of questions of a buyer before you give up your gear...what's to stop them from lying? Are you going to go the distance and call their DZ to confirm their information?
The responsibility remains that of the individual. As for the checks and balances, I feel that these should be the responsibility of the USPA and the DZ. And, as for giving advice, I think it's important to have the right qualifications. Experience alone just doesn't cut it.
Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali
-Salvador Dali
I agree with the premise of what you're saying, for example I know of some jumpers with a lot more jumps than I that don't know the first thing about flying a canopy. They have made no effort to continuously educate themselves and are just as dangerous as a low time jumper under a highly loaded canopy - if not worse sometimes. There is a lot to be said for how much research the person has done, and yes it definately makes them safer. Unfortunately the reality is that even the most heads up pilot with 400 jumps, still only has 400 jumps. Anyone with any decent knowledge of canopy flight realizes that this just isn't enough to be pushing hard. While high jump numbers aren't a good indicator of experience, low jump numbers are.
I think that's the right way to go about it. For example, anyone listening to me giving AFF advice is a fool (I don't know a damn thing about AFF). The reality is though, that students either a) Don't know who to believe (I've seen AFF instructors give terrible canopy advice with the recently grad student being in ICU within weeks of listening to them) OR b) Are shopping for the answer they want.
IMO they are both prevalent, but people like to hear what they WANT to hear, and there are plenty of people out there giving them the advice they want.
Nothing.
Yes, and I do. I will continue to do so as well. I'll do what's reasonable. If they still manage to get around all that then at least my conscious is clear.
Once again I agree. Unfortunately there isn't anything official or sanctioned like that right now. I'd like to see it too. Still I bet you no one would listen if they didn't like the answer they got. Instead they'd shop around until they got the answer they wanted. That's fine by me, just don't expect me to sell that 'answer' to them if I don't feel comfortable with it.
I have recently realized that they simply will not learn by any other way than drilling themselves into the ground. This was recently confirmed by a friend of mine who was life flighted out. When I got a chance to talk to him (kinda hard with facial paralysis) he simple stated that he was wrong. He finally understood what everyone had been telling him. UNFORTUNATELY he also acknowledged that there was nothing anyone could have told him to make it different until the accident.
Some people only learn by pain. Some people like to reinvent the wheel (or die trying). Some people learn the right way, thoroughly. And some people are tired of watching their friends crater in. I told you so doesn't give any satisfaction - trust me, this is one area that no one wants to be right.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Blues,
Ian
QuoteTherefore, I would value the opinion of my AFF instructor over some random D licensed fun jumper on the dz in skydiving issues. I would value the opinion of the person who sells and deals with gear for a living over someone who doesn't.
I think that's the right way to go about it. For example, anyone listening to me giving AFF advice is a fool (I don't know a damn thing about AFF). The reality is though, that students either a) Don't know who to believe (I've seen AFF instructors give terrible canopy advice with the recently grad student being in ICU within weeks of listening to them) OR b) Are shopping for the answer they want.
IMO they are both prevalent, but people like to hear what they WANT to hear, and there are plenty of people out there giving them the advice they want.
Quotewhat's to stop them from lying?
Nothing.
QuoteAre you going to go the distance and call their DZ to confirm their information?
Yes, and I do. I will continue to do so as well. I'll do what's reasonable. If they still manage to get around all that then at least my conscious is clear.
QuoteI think it's important to have the right qualifications. Experience alone just doesn't cut it.
Once again I agree. Unfortunately there isn't anything official or sanctioned like that right now. I'd like to see it too. Still I bet you no one would listen if they didn't like the answer they got. Instead they'd shop around until they got the answer they wanted. That's fine by me, just don't expect me to sell that 'answer' to them if I don't feel comfortable with it.
I have recently realized that they simply will not learn by any other way than drilling themselves into the ground. This was recently confirmed by a friend of mine who was life flighted out. When I got a chance to talk to him (kinda hard with facial paralysis) he simple stated that he was wrong. He finally understood what everyone had been telling him. UNFORTUNATELY he also acknowledged that there was nothing anyone could have told him to make it different until the accident.
Some people only learn by pain. Some people like to reinvent the wheel (or die trying). Some people learn the right way, thoroughly. And some people are tired of watching their friends crater in. I told you so doesn't give any satisfaction - trust me, this is one area that no one wants to be right.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
QuoteUnfortunately the reality is that even the most heads up pilot with 400 jumps, still only has 400 jumps. Anyone with any decent knowledge of canopy flight realizes that this just isn't enough to be pushing hard.
Well, while 400 jumps may seem a drop in the bucket to some, others who train and spend time with these people may have a different opinion than your own about what they are qualified to fly. You have every right to not sell your gear to whomever you choose, but just because someone doesn't meet your jump number standard doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be flying a boat, either.
I'm guessing for one that you would not sell me the canopy I currently own. Brian Germain, however, spent time training me in canopy control and was confident enough in my skills to sell me said canopy. And, I am confident enough in my skills to fly it, so even if some may feel that i'm pushing too hard by jumping a smallish canopy, their opinions don't necessarily hold much weight with me since they aren't the ones who have spent time training me, watching me, etc.
In the end, like I said, you are of course free to do as you please with your stuff. But, I just wanted to make the point that just because you don't think someone is qualified, doesn't necessarily mean that is the case.
Hoping this isn't taken harshly, because it isn't meant that way at all. Just sharing another POV.
Angela.
Damn! Did you even ask her how much she weighed?
One of the reasons that I take care when selling gear is because its a good idea to treat every skydiver (with a few exceptions) like they are a potential friend. You never know who you will end up meeting and hanging out with down the road. So its nice to kind of mentor people, give them a hand, explain safety to them. Imagine all these people, the possible buyers of your gear, as a bunch of your buddies. Thinking about it from that perspective, how could you possibly, in good conscious, sell someone with 100 jumps a stiletto 107 for example?
If you're in this sport just to be a hard core skydiver and don't give a shit about the people, then I don't expect you'll be around for much longer.
-Karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
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