Paying for Not Jumping Through Clouds

[riggerrob 558]

TommyM

I always accepted that you pay for the lift not the drop, it makes sense to me.

The worst part is not the money, it's landing with the airplane. Just for fun, if you are in that situation, look at the faces of your fellow jumpers when the plane is on final approach, big eyes, dry mouths, everyone looks like first jump students. People get awfully quiet with helmets and seat belts cinched down, even the plane gets unfamiliarly quiet with the power pulled back to land, fearless Skydivers....HA HA

I'd rather pay double than land with the plane.

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That reminds me of an old Canadian Army story. It seems that the jump platoon of the Royal 22nd Regiment was "less than enthusiastic" about jumping, so some smart-ass told them that the C-130 was too heavy to land with all of them on board. Then the winds blew too hard and the DZ controller told them to land in the plane. ... white knuckles ... eyes bigger than T-10s ... Hah!
Hah!

[riggerrob 558]

DSE

Did the clouds just 'up and appear from nowhere' on the ride to altitude? Unless that's the case, you made your own decision to get on the plane, and therefore pay for the ride to altitude.

Clouds rarely appear from nowhere, and if a skydiver gambles on a "sucker hole," it's on you, not the DZO. He fulfilled his side of the bargain (fuel and a ride).

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Astute fliers are rarely surprised by clouds "suddenly appearing out of nowhere."
The last time that happened to me, i was in the pilot's seat of a Cessna 182. As we took off, I noticed fog on the far side of the river, maybe five miles away. As we climbed, the fog rapidly rolled towards the airfield. When the skydivers jumped - from 10,000 feet - fog was crossing the river.
By the time I turned on final approach, the northern half of the runway was fogged in solid!
Fortunately, that runway was 9,000 feet long, so I landed VFR on the south half, then taxied to the hangar in the fog. That was the last load of the day.
I have never seen fog roll that fast ... before or since!

[frogerina 0]

mr2mk1g

Students however ought never loose their ticket. They're not the ones that make the call. They also ought not be put out in less than ideal conditions so it really was a poor call by the DZ if they ended up getting caught out at altitude with too much cloud to go.

As a current student, I've been brought down in the plane due to winds gusting twice. The first time, they were still technically legal...but it was also my AFF First Jump, and the decision was made by my instructors to come back down and wait out the winds. Several jumps later, also a round-trip plane ride due to winds, and this past Sunday, it was iffy due to clouds -- the plane circled a while at about 9000 feet waiting for the cloud cover to push through (I doubt the tandems aboard had any idea that it usually isn't that long of a plane ride...). We were able to make that jump, but my coach (who is also the head AFFI) had warned me it might be yet another round trip.

Since we students don't make that call, we don't lose the money...are just remanifested for later. I was having some serious conversations with myself on this cloudy ascent on whether I might make the choice myself to ride back down. Not sure then if I'd have been able to let my lift ticket and/or coaching fees ride...but also feel that I'm a bit too new at this to throw in extra variables...

[LyraM45 0]

Ditto what others said- you pay for the plane ride, not the jump. I've come down once or twice I think at a visiting dz when it was a tiny tiny hole and I didn't know the area well enough to recognize where I was or if I was even close to the airport through that tiny tiny hole. Not worth it for me if I'm stressing out over things like that; the jump won't be fun anyway for me at that point.

I'd rather ride the plane down wondering if I made the right call, kick myself for eating 25 bucks, and wish I was up in the air, vs. being in the air wishing I was on the ground.

I've been to a few dz's where I see people get a pat on the back and a "hey, nice call," with the refund. That is very nice, but it is definitely never expected, IMO.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[mik 2]

LyraM45

Ditto what others said- you pay for the plane ride, not the jump.

At my DZ the reverse is true. Where we have had to ride the plane down (probably 20 - 30 times for me, mainly due to high winds or cloud base being too low - but we can jump through clouds), we have never had to pay. The philosophy seems to be... DZ control decides whether we should take off and clears us to jump - so if they get it wrong the jumpers don't have to pay.

So I pay for the jumps, not the ride.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[MikeBIBOM 0]

Different experiences at different places. At my home DZ, I had an Altimeter malfunction on the ride up and decided not to jump (I didn't know the pilot had a spare), so I landed with the a/c. They still charged me for the lift, but not for the gear rental for that jump. At the IPC, we circled a few times looking for a hole in the clouds, but if we had landed, we would have had to pay for the ticket. At Empuriabrava, if the winds get too strong and they put a jump limit on while you're climbing to altitude, you get to ride the plane back down, but I'm pretty sure they don't charge you for the lift if your failure to leave the plane isn't your fault.

[nigel99 144]

grue

My DZ has a waiver allowing us to jump through complete cloud cover as long as the cloud base is at least 1,000' above planned deployment height, so we don't really have this problem

One of the few advantages to jumping in Australia… we might pay a lot more, have no tunnels, and more general regulation, but clouds can be dealt with




That said, back when I lived in the US, it was understood that you pay for the ride, not the jump. That said, if the plane turns back before full altitude you should probably only be charged for a hop and pop.

Cloud manuals are great. Last week we had cloud at 10k, I was the least experienced person on a 16 way and was going to be quite a late diver. I chose to ride the plane down, even though it changed to 2 separate 8 ways. It was just too much for me and I knew I would prefer the plane ride, to the jump at that point. Dz didn't charge a ticket either, which was unexpected and nice.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[chuteless 1]

If I had a choice to go through clouds, or miss them cleanly, I would choose to go through them. I find it a great thrill to fall into a cloud at great speed, and I know there is always that chance, but I'd take it. The end result if worth it as long as you don't meet a 747 .

[LyraM45 0]

chuteless

If I had a choice to go through clouds, or miss them cleanly, I would choose to go through them. I find it a great thrill to fall into a cloud at great speed, and I know there is always that chance, but I'd take it. The end result if worth it as long as you don't meet a 747 .

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB. You won't love it so much after that, especially if it's pouring around the bottom of it.

I did a 14 way once and we got out over a hole and the whole group drifted a little and I could see us going right for a big fat clump of solid cloud. Bases had to be around 2500-3000ft. The 14 way broke off in that and I basically pulled blind not being able to see in front of my face and had to spiral down for a few seconds out of it below the cloud base, as did the rest of the group. Scared the bajeebus out of me with a large group, honestly!

I don't think there is such a thing as getting a choice to go through a cloud cleanly. There is always that chance. I've jumped in a lot of high traffic of student pilot warning areas, so I'd rather not take the chance. There is a reason why we have to abide by see and been seen though.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[labrys 0]

Quote

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB.

Bet he "probably" has.

Owned by Remi #?

[mik 2]

chuteless

If I had a choice to go through clouds, or miss them cleanly, I would choose to go through them. I find it a great thrill to fall into a cloud at great speed, and I know there is always that chance, but I'd take it. The end result if worth it as long as you don't meet a 747 .

I can relate to this having done a lot of cloud jumps. I don't like hail much though.. especially if I am on the camera step... especially especially if people I jump with take too long in the door while I am being battered by the hail. Bloody hurts! Rain is not so bad, in my experience.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[mr2mk1g 10]

labrys

Quote

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB.

Bet he "probably" has.

Not sure they know who they're talking to. Hint Lyra - there's a clue in his name.... and his D-number.

[yoink 321]

mr2mk1g

***

Quote

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB.

Bet he "probably" has.

Not sure they know who they're talking to. Hint Lyra - there's a clue in his name.... and his D-number.

Almost as funny as the guy telling Kirk Verner that his advice on how to take grips was wrong...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3409993

[DSE 3]

LyraM45

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB. You won't love it so much after that, especially if it's pouring around the bottom of it.

I'll wager he has.
Bill has probably done a _lot_ of things that today's skydivers would be shocked at.
I believe he still holds the record for the most expensive camera jump in history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVvMGLJ0xww[url]
(another of Bill's famous antics)

[377 20]

At WFFC I was on a CASA load and the weather changed pretty dramatically during our climb. The pilot decided nobody was going to jump, zoomed us down from 14,000 ft and taxied directly into a big hanger just as all hell broke loose. Tents were getting blown down and the downpour was torrential. It would have been a nightmare descending under canopy in those conditions.

Paul, the owner of the CASA fleet, offered us a free rejump, but I declined. He ferried the fleet from GA to IL for nothing. He was not making much money flying us at WFFC and a zero revenue load to full altitude would just put him further behind.

I started jumping in 1968 and we were charged a dollar per thousand feet basically. 12,500 was $12.50. I am astounded that prices have stayed so low. Adjusted for inflation they are cheaper now than they were in 1968. Two weeks ago I went to 14,000 for $22. What a bargain.

I try to cut DZOs some slack. They are being awfully good to us offering such low jump prices on such expensive aircraft.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[LyraM45 0]

DSE

***

You've probably never jumped through a 6000 or 8000 ft tall wet CB. You won't love it so much after that, especially if it's pouring around the bottom of it.

I'll wager he has.
Bill has probably done a _lot_ of things that today's skydivers would be shocked at.
I believe he still holds the record for the most expensive camera jump in history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVvMGLJ0xww[url]
(another of Bill's famous antics)

OK, OK... what I should have said, is jumped through straight up cloud and came down soaking wet and loved it. I haven't met a person yet who loved it, but more power to him if he does!

ETA-- And yes, foot in mouth. I responded without looking at who was posting! What I get for doing that without having my coffee that day!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)