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genoyamamoto

SIM Recommendation for two canopies out.

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In the SIM, section 5-1E, subsection dealing with the two canopies out scenario, it states:

3. Stable biplane
a. Unstow the brakes on the front canopy and recover gently to full flight.

Side-by-side procedure 2:
Land both canopies.
(1) Release the brakes of the dominant canopy (larger and more overhead) and steer gently with the toggles.


Yet in every single instance where I have discussed a stable two-out scenario with instructors, their answer has always been to leave it alone, do as little as possible to it. Is there anything to gain by unstowing the brakes? Seems like changing the configuration by unstowing brakes is just asking for trouble.

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In the SIM, section 5-1E, subsection dealing with the two canopies out scenario, it states:

3. Stable biplane
a. Unstow the brakes on the front canopy and recover gently to full flight.

Side-by-side procedure 2:
Land both canopies.
(1) Release the brakes of the dominant canopy (larger and more overhead) and steer gently with the toggles.


Yet in every single instance where I have discussed a stable two-out scenario with instructors, their answer has always been to leave it alone, do as little as possible to it. Is there anything to gain by unstowing the brakes? Seems like changing the configuration by unstowing brakes is just asking for trouble.



Unstow the brakes and steer it to a landable area, unless you know how to steer with your rear risers on the leading canopy and be able to controll it to a landable area.

Be safe.
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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>Yet in every single instance where I have discussed a stable two-out scenario with instructors, their answer has always been to leave it alone, do as little as possible to it. Is there anything to gain by unstowing the brakes? Seems like changing the configuration by unstowing brakes is just asking for trouble.

I've never had two out so it might seem different
when it's actually happening, but I agree with you.

Leave it alone, steer with the rear risers of the front
canopy and try to get on the ground before anything
weird happens.

I've never seen any explanation of why releasing the
brakes on the front canopy makes the situation better.

Maybe there's some advantage for an experienced
jumper but it seems like a really bad idea to tell a student
to do that.

Maybe someone in this thread will explain why it's
better.

Skr

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I've done it... (Sorry to say)... I left it alone. I looked at the windsock and determined that there was very little wind. I had plenty of room to just let it go straight ahead and do a good PLF down wind. Mostly because every time I tried to steer from either canopy, it tried to go into a downplane. I had no idea which one would steer and ended up letting the brakes off on both canopies.

Best thing is to not get into the situation in the first place. But I flared the main downwind and everything came out fine.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

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But I flared the main downwind and everything came out fine.



Having SO much material over your head (2 canopies) will have you going slow enough to do a great PLF. There is no need to flare and possibly change the configuration of the canopies just before you land.

Most of all try to AVOID this situation of 2 canopies out........[:/]
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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I'm not an instructor, nor very experiences. However I HAVE had a two-out malfunction. On my 11th jump no less!

Here's what happened...

Had both come out simultaneously, and developed into a "stable" side by side. Remember what I was told about gently steering the more dominate canopy, I reached for the toggles. Now, it could have been that I reached for the wrong toggle, reached for an opposing pair (one on each canopy) or just that I unstowed them, but it turned almost immediately into a downplane.

We kind of discussed this, this year on safety day, but I guess it's possible that by unstowing the toggles, the front canopy surged forward causing the downplane. But that's just speculation.

As for me, I think I will leave the toggles alone and whatever course adjustment I need to make to find a clear landing spot will be done will very little riser inputs.

Larry A-43434

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> I asked this very same question a while back.

I looked at that thread and someone there suggested
a PIA document which also said to use the toggles
of the dominant canopy.

But I'm still not seeing anyone explain what the advantage
of this is.

It seems to me that unstowing the toggles of one canopy
creates an unbalanced situation with that canopy driving
more than the other.

I also found me in that thread saying that Rick Horn had
said that was a mistaken copy and paste of a possible
technique for experienced jumpers.

It still seems like a bad idea to tell students to do that.

I also remember this being brought up to the safety
and training committee a couple board meetings ago
but changing it met some kind of resistance from whoever
writes the SIM stuff in headquarters.

Maybe an email to the safety and training committee
would get some kind of answer for this.

I'm not going to teach people to unstow brakes until I hear
what the advantage of it is.

Skr

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I am an instructor but have never had an experience with a 2 canopy out situation. I too have heard many opinions on this topic and have tried to find out the answer to this question for as long as I have been skydiving. After talking to many people I respect in the sport with many different opinions, this is what I would do:

With a biplane, unless I was flying directly into an obstacle, I don't think I would touch much of anything to try and steer the canopy unless I did so with the rear risers of the dominant canopy or one which is in front. If I did happen to unstow the toggles of that canopy whether on purpose or just out of habit, I would unstow the toggles on the trailing canopy so they are flying in synchronicity and hopefully won't fight each other on the way to the ground. My main and reserve are the exact same square footage so I would essentially have 270 square feet of canopy over my head. If I am not running into power lines or something else scary, I probably would leave it alone.

I have heard a few different opinions on a side by side. In our AFF I course, we learned to train to cutaway the main on a side by side because eventhough they may fly stable from 3K down to 1K, Murphy's Law will dictate that on final approach something can happen and if the canopies at that point downplane, there's not much you can do. I've been told your chances of surviving a downplane where both canopies are flying you directly into the ground are slim to none, however, I do know people who have said they know others who have survived downplanes.

Some people will say not to cut away a side by side because you run the risk of a main reserve entanglement if the risers of both canopies are not completely separated. It is a tough call and I think sort of futile to come up with a blanket answer as to what is the best thing to do since it depends on many circumstances related to that specific jump, i.e. obstacle avoidance, wind direction, how the canopies are actually flying, etc.

Personally though I can tell you, if I am ever in a downplane, I am cutting away no matter what the altitude.
Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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Here's what we're training at our DZ. Stable biplane, relase the brakes on the front one, steer the front one gently, flare normally. An experienced CRW jumper can tell you how stable those biplanes are. Side-by-side, cut away the main (because of the danger that it may become a downplane), then release brakes on the reserve and land normally. If at anytime you are in a downplane, you should relaease the main. There is enough tension to insure good separationl A friend of mine was with the Golden Knights CRW team and personally tested all this stuff. Worked pretty well. I've seen it work in practice, too. I've had two out at once but it was back in the round days. Our DZ has too many treees and hazards to just land straight ahead. You will be in a hundred foot Douglas fir tree.:o Hope this isn't too controversial. Check with your instructors again.

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RSL? I've been told, by more then one instructor that the momentary hesitation caused by a connected RSL *could* increase the chance that cutting away the main leads to an entanglement, so Disconnect the RSL then chop, .. quick question though, if your new side by side starts to act up looking like its gonna entangle, anything other then fly level, do you spend the second or 5 to pull the RSL release or do you just cut? I've been told to disconnect the RSL but no one really put any emphasis on the importance of that, is it one of those well why take that extra 1:10,000 chance or is it more like an extra 1:30 chance?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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>I've been told, by more then one instructor that the momentary
> hesitation caused by a connected RSL *could* increase the chance
> that cutting away the main leads to an entanglement . . .

The issue there isn't hesitation, it's that you have another little dangly piece of webbing to snag on things. Once the reserve is open the RSL doesn't really affect anything in terms of deployment or cutting away.

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So what extra risk is there? if your 2 out side by side (which current advice is to keep) starts buffeting or acting up, or seperates a little giving you a chance to cut the main do you spend the second to release the RSL (presuming you havn't had the chance yet) or do you jump at the chance you have to get the main away clear/rush to cutaway before they entangle?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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Good queston about the rsl. Some rigs have rsl's attached with rapide links, so a wrench is required to remove it. Some rigs, like the Racer, had a double rsl, so cutting away would lead to a reserve malfunction, definitely an undersirable design flaw. Hey, Racer people, have they changed the design? Please let me know. Hope so. Anyway, most rsl's have no more "snag hazards" then a set of risers, except they are small and thin and could maybe whip around a reserve suspension line when you chop the main. Worth considering. So could your risers, for that matter. Two canopies out is usually a low speed situation, and you should strive to keep it that way. If you want to unhook your rsl in any two-canopy-out situation, it sure won't hurt anything, and might be beneficial. Stable side by sides can be landed, but one wrong move can lead to a downplane. Downplanes can even be flown back into side by sides. Ask a good CRW dog how. All two canopy situations are dicey, next to a horseshoe, it's my least favorite situation. That's why there is some debate still on the best techniques for dealing with it. I was lucky enough to know one of the test jumpers and a lot of great CRW jumpers that helped develop these techniques for square chutes. I still hope not to have to use them :)

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Side-by-side, cut away the main



Really?

That's not what the PIA dual square report suggests.
They had 11 out of 11 cases of main interference with the reserve when they did that...

I've attached the report.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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>So what extra risk is there? if your 2 out side by side (which current
>advice is to keep) starts buffeting or acting up, or seperates a little
> giving you a chance to cut the main do you spend the second to
> release the RSL . . .

No. If you find yourself in a stable two-out situation, disconnect the RSL first. Then if it acts up (i.e. separates) you can cut away without worrying. If you don't have time, then getting rid of the main takes priority. Note that this does NOT work with the Racer two-sided RSL; you must disconnect the RSL on that rig no matter what or you will likely choke off the reserve.

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Side-by-side, cut away the main



Really?

That's not what the PIA dual square report suggests.
They had 11 out of 11 cases of main interference with the reserve when they did that...

I've attached the report.

t



The 11 out of 11 was referring to a cutaway from a Bi-Plane.

Even so, you are correct in that they do not recommend a cutaway from a side by side, unless it starts to develop into a down plane.

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Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Side-by-side, cut away the main

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really?

That's not what the PIA dual square report suggests.
They had 11 out of 11 cases of main interference with the reserve when they did that...

I've attached the report.



The report says 11 of 11 biplanes resulted in entanglements.

For side by side it recommends if it flies stable, keep it. If it is unstable and not entangled, cutaway the main.

Blues,
Nathan

Edited to say: Oops too late[:/]
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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The 11 out of 11 was referring to a cutaway from a Bi-Plane.



You're right. I apologise for my own confusion. I posted the report without re reading it. I knew the cut away from a side by side was not recomended.

Once again, sorry for any confusion caused.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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Side-by-side, cut away the main



Really?

That's not what the PIA dual square report suggests.
They had 11 out of 11 cases of main interference with the reserve when they did that...

I've attached the report.

Quote

Thanks for that report. I read it carefully. You are wrong. They were talking about the biplane, not the side-by-side. We had a local instructor at another DZ lose his life a few years ago chopping a biplane at low altitude.The main entangled the reserve.
The report did recommend releasing the RSL. I think I'll add that to my emergency procedures. I have the good fortune to be friends with one of the Army test jumpers they talked about in the report. Based on his briefings, our DZ formulated, quite a while ago, the procedures we now teach, and it's worked well. Still, it's good to debate and consider changes from time to time. P.S. We really stress not cutting away the main in a biplane.

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That's not what the PIA dual square report suggests.
They had 11 out of 11 cases of main interference with the reserve when they did that...

I've attached the report.



This document is a must read on this issue. I just attended Jon La Blanc's lecture on this exact issue based upon person experience and that study.

Please Note: Jon made it clear that this is what he would do, as he is not issuing formal recommendations.

Three main take-aways were:
1) Don't unstow your brakes on either canopy. Steer instead very gently with rear risers.(side by side-don't touch the far right or left risers... use inside rear to nudge the other canopy along, i.e. turn left with the (left) rear riser of the canopy on the right)
2) Don't cutaway from any stable configuration. Just from downplanes.
3) Don't flair at all. You have additional canopy overhead, and can just prepare for your finest PLF.

I can't cover his whole lecture here nor do I have that permission. But, if you can attend at any safety day he gives anexcellent review. Including reserve size issues, etc...

Please Note: He made it clear that this is what he would do, as he is not issuing formal recommendations.
Dr. "Q" PMS#151Shugah,Shugah,How'd Ya Git So Fly?

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