freakbrother 0 #51 February 21, 2003 QuoteDid I miss something? I did see the letter in Parachutist about this... and wondered then as now, what is the big deal with doing night jumps / water jumps ? There's no requirement to do water jumps, although accidental water landings are more likely than accidental night landings. Quote As with many things in skydiving...once you've honestly reached that level of competency...it's truely no longer an issue. I see the same thing with people wanting to slide a bit on the "PRO" requirements... We're for the most part a self-governing body...if someone isn't comfortable with jumping at night --don't ever put yourself in a position that may require you to do so. Your syntax makes it difficult to tell whether you're addressing the second person ("yourself", "you") or third person ("someone") in this sentence. If you're addressing me, I already have my "D" license. Quote If one wants to be considered an 'expert' skydiver... complete the requirements...you will know when you really qualify. Again, are you addressing "one" or me personally? There are no longer any titles attached to license levels. I already have a "D" license from the time when it was labelled "master skydiver".. . www.freak-brother.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #52 February 21, 2003 QuoteYou don't read what I write. I never claimed that experience was not valuable, simply that making the night jump a requirement for a "D" was an illogical way to do it, since it doesn't address the problems of people with only A thru C licenses that get on sunset loads. Yes I do read what your write. The "D" is the highest license that the USPA has. Until you get it (and even after) you are being (I hope) watched by the S&TA's, I's, exp. jumpers ect. I do it all the time. But the issue is not "sunset loads" the issue is people don't want to do what the USPA says is needed to have the "D" license. The sunset load issue only came up when the people who want a "D" with out the night jumps said that you will never jump at night unless you want to. As far as I know there really is not an issue with A,B,C jumpers on sunset loads. But it was brought up to show that night jumps CAN have use. As for being a bad way to do it....What do you think would be better?...I'm listening here. QuoteBUT - the hood requirement is required for the private license - the FIRST license. And the nights jumps are required for the "D" the LAST license. QuoteThe night jump for "D" is more like only requiring hood experience for ATP's, on the grounds that private pilots might accidentally fly into clouds. (I am a PP SEL, Intrument, glider). Vaid point. But it does not change the issue that night jumps ARE required by the USPA. And I think you would agree that the can be done safely, and that they are valuable. But again I ask...At what point do you think they should be done? B. Qualifications 1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should possess a currently valid USPA B or higher license. This says that all you need to DO a night jump is a "B". So you only need 50 jumps to start doing night jumps. Anything before 50 I don't think that the jumper has enough basic knowledge to be safe. So you can DO them after 50 jumps....You don't have to wait till you have 200. So if you do them at 50....then you can be safer on sunset jumps right? But the issue is people just don't want to do them. Fine, then don't. But don't bitch about it...Just take your "C" in hand and drive on with your life. QuoteYou don't read what I write, do you. I already have a "D" (unrestricted). I enjoyed the night jumps. Didn't think they had any relevance beyond that, though. No, I do listen. But give me some other options, other than to remove the requirments. You want to make people do them at 50 jumps? Fine with me. That would make "sunset" jumps safer. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #53 February 21, 2003 QuoteQuoteYou don't read what I write. I never claimed that experience was not valuable, simply that making the night jump a requirement for a "D" was an illogical way to do it, since it doesn't address the problems of people with only A thru C licenses that get on sunset loads. Yes I do read what your write. The "D" is the highest license that the USPA has. Until you get it (and even after) you are being (I hope) watched by the S&TA's, I's, exp. jumpers ect. I do it all the time. But the issue is not "sunset loads" the issue is people don't want to do what the USPA says is needed to have the "D" license. The sunset load issue only came up when the people who want a "D" with out the night jumps said that you will never jump at night unless you want to. As far as I know there really is not an issue with A,B,C jumpers on sunset loads. But it was brought up to show that night jumps CAN have use. As for being a bad way to do it....What do you think would be better?...I'm listening here. QuoteBUT - the hood requirement is required for the private license - the FIRST license. And the nights jumps are required for the "D" the LAST license. QuoteThe night jump for "D" is more like only requiring hood experience for ATP's, on the grounds that private pilots might accidentally fly into clouds. (I am a PP SEL, Intrument, glider). Vaid point. But it does not change the issue that night jumps ARE required by the USPA. And I think you would agree that the can be done safely, and that they are valuable. But again I ask...At what point do you think they should be done? B. Qualifications 1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should possess a currently valid USPA B or higher license. This says that all you need to DO a night jump is a "B". So you only need 50 jumps to start doing night jumps. Anything before 50 I don't think that the jumper has enough basic knowledge to be safe. So you can DO them after 50 jumps....You don't have to wait till you have 200. So if you do them at 50....then you can be safer on sunset jumps right? But the issue is people just don't want to do them. Fine, then don't. But don't bitch about it...Just take your "C" in hand and drive on with your life. QuoteYou don't read what I write, do you. I already have a "D" (unrestricted). I enjoyed the night jumps. Didn't think they had any relevance beyond that, though. No, I do listen. But give me some other options, other than to remove the requirments. You want to make people do them at 50 jumps? Fine with me. That would make "sunset" jumps safer. Ron I don't have any particular issue with the night jump requirement, if people are honest about it. What I find annoying (and continue to bitch about) are the bogus rationalizations for the requirement. "It's to make sunset loads safer." Rubbish, 'cos you can make a sunset load without having a "D". "It's to make night demos safer." Rubbish, the SIM already has all the necessary safeguards. "It's so when you become an instructor you can provide night jump instruction." (This is an old one, seems to have gone away now that the requirements for instructional ratings are changed due to the changing jump number requirements). "It's in case your event at Nationals runs on into the evening." Well, the license requirements for competing have changed so a "D" is no longer required as of Sept 2003, so that's bogus too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #54 February 21, 2003 QuoteI don't have any particular issue with the night jump requirement, if people are honest about it. What I find annoying (and continue to bitch about) are the bogus rationalizations for the requirement. "It's to make sunset loads safer." Rubbish, 'cos you can make a sunset load without having a "D". I never said it was to MAKE sunset loads safer....I DID say that if you HAVE done them sunset loads ARE safer. Different thing. Quote"It's to make night demos safer." Rubbish, the SIM already has all the necessary safeguards. Never said that either....In my personal opinion. You should have to have a PRO rating for ANY DEMO....It is not that hard to get a PRO. And unless you have that level of experience, I don't want anyone doing them. Quote"It's so when you become an instructor you can provide night jump instruction." (This is an old one, seems to have gone away now that the requirements for instructional ratings are changed due to the changing jump number requirements). I never said this either....I think its a stupid reason as well. Quote"It's in case your event at Nationals runs on into the evening." Well, the license requirements for competing have changed so a "D" is no longer required as of Sept 2003, so that's bogus too. I never said this, and it sounds like BS to me as well. What I will say (and this is not aimed at you since you have done them)...Is people shut up, and stop bitching about the night jump requirment. Either do them to get your "D" or stop bitching about having to do them to get it. Keep the "C" and be happy. Do I think they are needed ....Nope, but USPA does. And as long as they say they are needed, stop trying to change the rules so you can have it your way. A lot of things in life don't make sense.... Why did I pay taxes while I was in the military???? Why do we drive on parkways, and park on driveways? Why do they Interstate Highways in Hawaii? These questions will never be answered. But you know what? Who cares? Follow the rules or don't. Why do you have to do 2 night jumps to get the "D"? Because USPA said so. Don't like it? Don't get a "D". Or start your own orginazation and make the rules the way you want them to be. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #55 February 22, 2003 Well, come September you will be able to do with a "C" almost everything that currently needs a "D", so the entire argument really will become moot. The "D" will not so much be a license as a merit badge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #56 February 22, 2003 Almost several times.The key is to make sure you change your(my)dark goggles to clear!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #57 February 24, 2003 QuoteDuct tape: the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything I thought the answer was 42? At least I read that somewhere. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 0 #58 June 13, 2005 Ended up on one by accident at about 50 jumps. Started out as a sunset load, got delayed, I was on the 3rd or 4th pass, debating whether or not to leave the 'plane and had my mind made up for me by the freeflyers after me. A quick boot to the butt gets you in the air pretty fast I turned crosswind (low winds) and followed the reflectors on the runway, using the light on my carabiner watch (which I normally left behind) as a guide to the ground (beam shines 100') and to see my altimeter. Just ready to flare, I saw a dumbass observer standing right in my path of flight, and right where I palnned to land. Yelled INCOMING, watched the person jump and roll, landed safely and decided I didn't like night jumps. Had an opportunity about thirty jumps later to watch a real one. Think I'll wait 'til I have to do one.Es gibt nur zwei Dinge welche unendlich sind: das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit, wobei ich mir beim Ersten nicht ganz sicher bin.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #59 June 13, 2005 I've been know to land with the plane. A better course of action, is to know what time sunset is and don't get on the load if you think you're pushing daylight. I'm one of those jumpers that hates doing night jumps. As of now I won't do them any more.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #60 June 13, 2005 Try to have a night jump in Finland this time of the year....We are planing to jump 24h this Friday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflajankie 0 #61 June 13, 2005 QuoteDamn it, I know there are no fucking Accidental jumps....but there are unplanned dark jumps....Why do you people always need to nit pick the shit out of things???? But nobody ever forces you to exit the plane. If you don't want to jump then don't jump. To me it's ridicules to have a requirement of having a night jump to get a d-license. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind making one. But to have it as a requirement... I'd say that there are more important stuff to focus on. If you enter the plane when the sun is almost down you know it's going to be more dusk then sunset when you land. You can either choose not to get on the plane. Or enter the plane and then decide IF you want to exit. People are not going to kick you out of the plane. To answer the question have I been on any unplanned/accidental "night" jumps. No. Because I knew how dark it would be before I got in the plane! AnkieSkydivers are a bunch of insensitive jerks... And that's why I don't skydive anymore! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #62 June 13, 2005 QuoteBut nobody ever forces you to exit the plane. If you don't want to jump then don't jump. Really? Did you not read just two posts up? Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1688014#1688014 Ended up on one by accident at about 50 jumps. Started out as a sunset load, got delayed, I was on the 3rd or 4th pass, debating whether or not to leave the 'plane and had my mind made up for me by the freeflyers after me. A quick boot to the butt gets you in the air pretty fast Fact of the matter is people have left in dark conditions that they didn't plan on. QuotePeople are not going to kick you out of the plane Read above again. Also notice that 107 (69%) have said they have been on an accidental night jump. Also peer preasure is a muther fucker. I have seen people do some stupid shit they knew better than to do, but did it to stay cool. I think there are plenty of better things to train for (I personally would like to see manditory cutaways as required training at some point). I think people should be able to pack and spot. But 69% of people have said they have left a plane and it be darker than they planned. Done properly a night jump is not dangerous."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflajankie 0 #63 June 13, 2005 Ok, so 1 person has been kicked out... And FYI that post was not there while I was posting.... The 69% saying that they have done an accidental "night" jump I don't think they got kicked out of the airplane or fell out. They chose to exit. I know what you mean by accidental but at the same time I don’t think accidental is the right word for it. If you fall of or get kicked off then it's accidental. If you choose to exit then it's planned. If you exit because of peer pressure. then hey I can't help that. if you are not strong enough to say no, then maybe you should do something safer... IMHO AnkieSkydivers are a bunch of insensitive jerks... And that's why I don't skydive anymore! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #64 June 13, 2005 >If you choose to exit then it's planned. That's like saying that if you break your femur on landing you planned to do it, since you pulled the toggle and caused the accident. If you didn't want to break your leg you wouldn't have pulled the toggle, right? No one forced you to pull it. I've been on plenty of loads where we were pushing sunset, and I didn't even realize how dark it was until I was running out the door. Heck, the horizon out the window looked pretty bright! Now I'm better at judging how dark it's really going to be. But I wouldn't have that experience had I not accidentally gotten out a few times in conditions darker than I would have liked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #65 June 13, 2005 QuoteWhy do you people always need to nit pick the shit out of things???? The answers you seek are in my signature lines... Ignorance still rules this place....it just prettier in PINK! Get the whole story the first time, you'll piss far fewer people off. Not directed at anyone. Opie, I love you, you know that. I'm also speaking on many other things that take place in the wierd community.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #66 June 13, 2005 Quote>If you choose to exit then it's planned. That's like saying that if you break your femur on landing you planned to do it, since you pulled the toggle and caused the accident. If you didn't want to break your leg you wouldn't have pulled the toggle, right? No one forced you to pull it. Come on, they're nothing alike. Femuring on landing is not a willful act, not even if you downsize radically. There's a wide gradation of application of skill between perfect landing and death. But choosing to exit a plane is pretty binary. You do, or you ride it down. If we're going to continue to hold people responsible for their W/L and canopy chocies, and for their failure to ask the questions they need on safety issues in general, we sure as hell can hold people responsible for their decision to exit at dusk. It's no accident. It's a failure to plan at best. I've done dusk loads before, landing in a north/south valley where the sun disappears below a couple thousand. It didn't seem that hairy, other than being a no winder. In two weeks I can compare to a true no light night dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #67 June 13, 2005 >Femuring on landing is not a willful act . . . Hey, no one made you pull that toggle down. And in the great majority of low turn injuries and fatalities, not pulling that toggle down would have prevented the accident. Quite binary in that way. I think the issue you have with this is that the guy didn't _intend_ to break his femur; that was just the result of not thinking enough about what would happen if he pulled down that toggle. Same thing with dusk jumps. Without enough experience, he may not know what the result of jumping just after sunset is. Hey, the horizon is bright, the DZ is still visible (sorta) and everyone on the load knows it's after sunset. No reason not to jump, right? It may be several minutes later that he realizes it's too dark to make out ground features in the alternate landing area he's headed for. At that point it's too late to decide he doesn't want to jump. >It's no accident. It's a failure to plan at best. As are low turns. So what's the answer? My opinion is better education for _both._ And getting rid of night jumps - in other words, reducing education - is not the right way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #68 June 13, 2005 Quote>Femuring on landing is not a willful act . . . Hey, no one made you pull that toggle down. And in the great majority of low turn injuries and fatalities, not pulling that toggle down would have prevented the accident. Quite binary in that way. I think the issue you have with this is that the guy didn't _intend_ to break his femur; that was just the result of not thinking enough about what would happen if he pulled down that toggle. Same thing with dusk jumps. No, my issue is that they're totally different situations, Bill. You can't support the binary claim on toggle femurs because it's not remotely binary. Lots of people can toggle turn safely if they add the second toggle. Failure to turn at all can lead to other problems which may also involve femuring. I presume you're filtering out all of the other low turn accidents (HP), so we're talking about panic turns near final. The jumper is under time crunch. Whereas here we had someone talk about making 3 or 4 passes. That's 10 minutes to look out the window and think about it. And they knew, or should have known, the time of sunset when they took off. I'm used to seeing posted sunset and wheels up near manifest. People can make the mistake you've described...and they can own up to it. So you're comparing a simple yes/no decision with a rushed low altitude turning decision which has numerous answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #69 June 13, 2005 QuoteThe answers you seek are in my signature lines... It's a nice thing about DZ.com - if the topic isn't interesting to keep going on it's own merit there's always someone willing to go nutty over semantics. Even here I've seen a variation of "I understand what you meant, but I don't think it should be WORDED that way" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #70 June 13, 2005 QuoteOk, so 1 person has been kicked out... And FYI that post was not there while I was posting.... That does not mean it has not happend before, or will not happen again. QuoteThe 69% saying that they have done an accidental "night" jump I don't think they got kicked out of the airplane or fell out. They chose to exit. I doubt many people who get broken in this sport CHOSE to break themselves...More often than not they make a choice and it turns out to be a bad one. Training people to handle the potential bad outcomes in a controled environment is the trick. A night jump under good conditions is a good way to push the limits, and learn how to handle a less than ideal situation. QuoteI know what you mean by accidental but at the same time I don’t think accidental is the right word for it. Thats why I tried to define "Accidental" as to mean you left and it was dark, but you didn't plan on doing a night jump. If you didn't plan it, it is an accident. Just as people plan on hook turning, they don't pan on breaking their femur, but still do. People jump and end up landing by "accident" when it is dark. QuoteIf you choose to exit then it's planned when a person hook turns do they plan on breaking their leg? I doubt it, it sometimes happens. Both are just bad judgement. QuoteIf you exit because of peer pressure. then hey I can't help that. if you are not strong enough to say no, then maybe you should do something safer... IMHO This sport is FULL of people that cave to peer pressure. If they all did something else there would be very few jumpers."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #71 June 14, 2005 The great thing is all of us morons can post what we think. It's a great community but man sometimes.....Edited to add, I'm included in the morons.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #72 June 14, 2005 Quote>If you choose to exit then it's planned. That's like saying that if you break your femur on landing you planned to do it, since you pulled the toggle and caused the accident. If you didn't want to break your leg you wouldn't have pulled the toggle, right? No one forced you to pull it. I've been on plenty of loads where we were pushing sunset, and I didn't even realize how dark it was until I was running out the door. Heck, the horizon out the window looked pretty bright! Now I'm better at judging how dark it's really going to be. But I wouldn't have that experience had I not accidentally gotten out a few times in conditions darker than I would have liked. Did you only allow "D" license holders on those loads?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #73 June 14, 2005 QuoteEnded up on one by accident at about 50 jumps. Started out as a sunset load, got delayed, I was on the 3rd or 4th pass, debating whether or not to leave the 'plane and had my mind made up for me by the freeflyers after me. A quick boot to the butt gets you in the air pretty fast... Someone actually forcing you out the door? Sounds like a "Safety Meeting" should have been held at the end of the runway. Two-sided meeting - you for delaying in the door, them for doing something so stupid as forcing someone to jump. NOT cool. Your S&TA should have been all over that with a can of whip-ass.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #74 June 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe answers you seek are in my signature lines... It's a nice thing about DZ.com - if the topic isn't interesting to keep going on it's own merit there's always someone willing to go nutty over semantics. Even here I've seen a variation of "I understand what you meant, but I don't think it should be WORDED that way" People get so hung up on some of the semantics that they forget to think about what really happens when you step away from the computer. Not everyone has been up in a plane at dusk, not everyone has a clue as to what its going to be like when they land, not everyone realizes how quick it can get dark. These are the people that this is mostly talking about. After you do that once or twice you know what to expect and then it isn't "accidental." Call it accidental or call it unplanned, doesn't make a big difference to me. It comes down to the fact that people will get out of the plane w/o the experiences and w/o the proper information for lots of really stupid reasons. Making people do a planned and informed night jump or 2 will save thier ass if they find themselves doing something else stupid later. Its the lack of good judgement when a person gets on the plane figuring that they are going to make it and they are sitting in a full otter at the door looking out going "damn its dark" and have 20 other people yelling at them to go because the green light is on that a planned, briefed, supervised night jump will help you with. Don't tell me your average "I want to be cool" 100 jump wonder isn't going to leap out that door. Well, at least to me, that seems to be the point that Ron is trying to make. For the record I have done ~10 night jumps and around the same in "dusk" jumps. Neither bother me that much, jumping at night is a whole lot of fun.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #75 June 14, 2005 QuoteSomeone actually forcing you out the door? Sounds like a "Safety Meeting" should have been held at the end of the runway. dude...do you know what most people think when you say "Saftey Meeting"?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
