obelixtim 100 #26 April 24, 2004 Ah.......yeah.....OK.....your reply tells me lots......'nuff said......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #27 April 24, 2004 QuoteAh.......yeah.....OK.....your reply tells me lots......'nuff said...... Im sorry, I thought you asked why I dont hop and pop from altitude. I said I do. Sorry I couldn't fulfill your intellectual needs with my answer. What exactly are you looking for? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #28 April 24, 2004 Just your comment "let other people look after everyone else"...... We should ALL get involved if we see something that concerns us on the DZ......Instructors/JM's/DZO's don't always see everything that goes on......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #29 April 26, 2004 QuoteWe should ALL get involved if we see something that concerns us on the DZ......Instructors/JM's/DZO's don't always see everything that goes on...... I was commenting on the pull altitude. I never turn a blind eye to something that concerns me. I advise, but I dont police. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #30 April 26, 2004 QuotePulling at 2k was all the rage 15 years ago, and thats great. I want to fly my canopy on every jump, not just pull and land. I dont think canopies took 1k feet to open 15 years ago either. No, they didn't. Fifteen or twenty years ago, you threw your p/c and got a good stiff opening in about 2-3 seconds. Not a slammer necessarily, but enough of a tug to make you grunt and feel like a sack of cement for just a moment. And before that, rounds opened pretty quick too, though mostly nice & soft (especially Paracommanders). We used to do lots of 30 second 4 way stuff from Cessnas in those days, with typical breakoff at 3500 ft. And that was considered safe by-the-book skydiving. In those days a snivel was a "WTF" experience & not considered desirable. We've since learned to consider a snivelly opening to be a good thing, that just needs to be initiated higher. The little cross braced buzz bombs didn't even exist back then and are an entity all to themselves. I've never jumped one, so will go along with whatever their owners think is best. I find breakoffs at 4-5 grand, depending on group size are a lot more relaxed and I don't mind taking a longer track at all. I do harbor a personal opinion that people jumping in groups should at least feel confident about dumping at 3 grand. Trust your gear, it's the people who get twitchy in a crowd because they "have to" open at 3500 that scare me. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #31 April 26, 2004 QuoteTrust your gear, it's the people who get twitchy in a crowd because they "have to" open at 3500 that scare me. I completely understand. I was on an RW load last year (I think it was 18 or so, I dont do much RW anymore but the orginizer asked me to.) I wound up dumping at 2500 or so because of breakoff traffic. It was ok but didnt leave me much time at all. My canopy takes upwards of 700ft to open so I was almost at my hard deck when the slider came down. I prefer not to put myself there a lot. But then again, thats me with my gear and my expierence and my ass. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #32 April 27, 2004 >My canopy takes upwards of 700ft to open . . . Get that thing fixed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #33 April 28, 2004 QuoteGet that thing fixed! If it aint broke...! Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #34 April 28, 2004 >If it aint broke...! I dunno about that. A canopy that will not open in time to save my life if I open it at 1000 feet, to me, is broken. The primary purpose of a canopy (in my mind) is to save your life as often as possible. But that's just me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #35 April 29, 2004 My canopy will open in time to save my life at 1000 feet. My reserve. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #36 April 29, 2004 QuoteMy canopy will open in time to save my life at 1000 feet. My reserve. Exactly, if I was at 1000 ft with nothing out I would not attempt to open my main. I would go straight to the reserve. I jump with cypres, so pulling the main would risk a main/reserve entanglement at that altitude anyway. It would be interesting to hear what the canopy manufactures have to say about distances required for inflation. I know packing can make a huge difference but surely they must have some idea of the what is normal for their mains. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #37 April 29, 2004 They may have a general idea of acceptable opening distances, but really there are too many variables....body weight, position, packing method, right down to temperature, humidity levels, opening altitudes etc.......really I think if your canopy is taking more than 500 ft to open then it needs looking at......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #38 April 29, 2004 QuoteMaybe I'm a minority here, Don't think so. QuoteWe condemn jumpers all day long for pulling low, (...) yet we're willing to quickly turn a cheek so as to accomodate a boogie atmosphere where the main purpose is to turn as many loads as possible? In my book that's a double standard. Ouch don't call it that!!! What a harsh word. Don't forget the economics of a Boogie. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #39 April 29, 2004 >Exactly, if I was at 1000 ft with nothing out I would not attempt to > open my main. I would go straight to the reserve. I jump with > cypres, so pulling the main would risk a main/reserve entanglement > at that altitude anyway. Have you practiced that? If you haven't, and you ever find yourself at 1000 feet, I guarantee that you will do what you know has saved your life hundreds of times before - you will open your main. It's a habit in skydivers that's as strong as hitting the brake is to a driver. And it's a good habit; at 1000 feet there is time to do exactly one thing, and it better be the thing you know how to do. Trying to find a handle you have never touched in freefall before for the first time is not a good idea five seconds from impact. I have tried to open my reserve at 1200 feet and been unable to - instinct was too strong. And about five years ago at Lost Praire, a current, experienced AFF-I and I made a low jump. He teaches emergency procedures all the time. Before the jump I asked him what he would do if he got to 1000 feet. He said "I'd pull my reserve" and pantomined pulling his reserve. We made the jump, broke off low - and he opened his main at 1000 feet even though he knew what altitude he was at. His cypres fired, but he landed safely. So if you are more current on your emergency procedures than an AFF-I who teaches them every weekend, and are more heads-up than an AFF instructor who was as prepared as he could be to go low - I might believe that you will be able to go for your reserve instead of your main. But history has shown that you _will_ open your main if you ever get close to cypres opening altitude, because that's all most skydivers have ever done or ever practiced doing. Which is why CRW is an important skill to have if you have a cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #40 April 30, 2004 I agree with everything you say. I am also not 100% sure when the time comes if I could do the unusual thing of going straight to the reserve. But, that is my plan. Let's hope I am not stupid enough to need it. As you have said teaching E.P's is not the same as actually using them. Maybe I have more experience using them than the AFF-I QuoteWhich is why CRW is an important skill to have if you have a cypres. Was that a joke? Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #41 April 30, 2004 >>Which is why CRW is an important skill to have if you have a cypres. >Was that a joke? No! Odds are that if your cypres ever fires it will result in a two-out, not a save. Knowing how to fly a side-by-side or a biplane (and how to separate them to a downplane if needed) can be crucial if that happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #42 April 30, 2004 <,"or a biplane...and how to separate them into a downplane"...........> What the.......................??????My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #43 May 1, 2004 >What the.......................?????? Was that a question? If you really feel like you have to cut away a main parachute in a two-out situation, it's safer to initiate a downplane before doing it. If not, then experience starting a downplane will tell you what _not_ to do if you plan to land a side-by-side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #44 May 1, 2004 I don't think its necessary, or wise, to advise people who are under two good canopies to start initiating downplanes and cutting away mains.....to see what its like.....opening a can of worms..... With low experience/ no idea about CRW/ misjudge ment, and a lot of potential for injury, or worse, people are liable to try things when its not a good idea, or necessary to do so........ There is an interesting "2 canopies out" thread on the "Incidents" board...worth checking out.... This scenario warrants careful thought and research by every jumper before they ever get into the situation, however unlikely......not reacting, suddenly because of a nasty surprise after opening......with full on adrenalin rush.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,422 #45 May 3, 2004 >I don't think its necessary, or wise, to advise people who are under > two good canopies to start initiating downplanes and cutting away > mains.....to see what its like.....opening a can of worms..... You are correct. The only people who should attempt such a manuever are people who have tried the same manuever in controlled situations (like during a CRW training jump.) Newer jumpers should try to get some CRW training so such a manuever is possible if needed. With modern (snively) canopies and AAD's, a lot of jumpers will, at some point in their careers, be exposed to a two-canopy-out scenario. CRW training can help you deal more effectively with such a scenario, and is a good idea for anyone who regularly jumps with an AAD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #46 May 3, 2004 QuoteKnowing how to fly a side-by-side or a biplane (and how to separate them to a downplane if needed) can be crucial if that happens. I've done some CRW jumps and a few downplanes, so let's see if I understand this. I pull low and have a two out. Which foot do I grab? My left or my right? I think CRW is a something that every jumper should try, as you learn so much about canopy flight. I am not really convinced it helps that much in a two out situation. More helpful is the two out report that has been posted here many times. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #47 May 3, 2004 QuoteWhich foot do I grab? My left or my right? It doesn't matter. Just remove the shoe and drop it - and that should clear the downplane! On a serious note - As someone who started out when canopies were slow and big and collisions, wraps and entanglements were unheard of outside of the realm of CRW - I'm amazed that now that the planes are bigger, the loads fuller, the canopies faster and there are multiple exit groups - that CRW is as quiet as it is. I have +-700 CRW dives, and although I now jump a Safire 120, Stilleto 107 or FX 92 - I'm glad I have that experience. Real glad. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
