Non-rated S/L I's

[NSEMN8R 0]

There's a Group Member DZ here in MI that (due to a shortage of qualified staff) is using unrated Static line Instructors. There's a rumor that the airport manager has reported this to the USPA in hopes of getting the Group Membership revoked so he can get this particular DZO off the airport.

The skydivers he's using as I's just got their coach ratings. If the USPA does investigate, would these coaches need to worry about getting in any trouble for teaching S/L class and tossing students? What's the worst that could happen to them?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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There's a Group Member DZ here in MI that (due to a shortage of qualified staff) is using unrated Static line Instructors.

Happens more than you would think, the 'pledge' is a joke.

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If the USPA does investigate, would these coaches need to worry about getting in any trouble for teaching S/L class and tossing students? What's the worst that could happen to them?

USPA could revoke their USPA membership, which doesn't really mean anything either. I'm sure the DZO would still let them jump at his DZ and all they have to do is apply for the 45-day temp membership if they want to go to another DZ. By the time it gets figured out that their membership was revoked, the weekend is over and they are gone.

Derek

[tombuch 0]

I think it is a big deal, and USPA can (should) revoke the ratings of the coaches who operate outside their scope of practice. See the Disciplinary section in the USPA Governance Manual at http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/Gov.Man.Sept04.pdf. I think it is page 21, section 1-6.

USPA should also revoke the group membership of the DZ. When a DZ advertises that they are a group member the student has a right to expect that the operation follows all mandatory rules of the organization. A failure to follow the rules (DZ) or enforce the rules (USPA) cheats the student and denies the basic level of care that is promised by the group membership pledge. That subjects the coach, drop zone, and USPA to significant liability. In addition, if the airport requires group membership and requires that the DZ follow the BSR's, and then fails to deal with a known violation, the airport also faces increased liability.

This kind of violation does happen at other drop zones and USPA is lax in enforcement, and I think that needs to change. Group membership has privileges and should also have enforced responsibilities.
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Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[scdrnr 0]

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This kind of violation does happen at other drop zones and USPA is lax in enforcement, and I think that needs to change. Group membership has privileges and should also have enforced responsibilities.

I have read your posts in the past and while I generally agree with and respect your opinions, on this I have to disagree.

The USPA should not be the "safety police". The USPA is a political organization, and as such, often enforces their rules in a particularly selective manner. Remember, the USPA has a monopoly on the certification of skydivers in this country and they know it, and sadly being a Group Member is becoming a requirement at more and more public airports.

Instructional ratings don't mean nearly as much as the instructor behind them. Ratings can be pencil whipped and often are. Interestingly, I know of many "pencil whipped" instructors who are far better and more effective teachers than other instructors who "earned" their ratings.

If a DZ is using coaches as SL/I's then they are way ahead of the curve. I have seen 5 jump students put out static lines (successfully), and while I don't necessarily agree with the practice, I can't deny that it has worked thousands of times over many years with a safety record better than most student programs.

Another case in point - I know of a DZ where two respected, long time (20-30 year) static line instructors who meet all the IRM requirements to hold a SL/I course were prevented from registering their course with the USPA by a Regional Director. So they held it anyway, to a group of rated coaches, AFF/I's, and TI's. I don't think student safety is being jeopardized just because the USPA didn't collect their licensing fee.

The whole nonrated static line instructor issue is just a tool for the USPA to hammer down on DZ's for political reasons - usually at the behest of other DZ's that don't even do static line.

Need more convincing - how come the USPA never cracks down on non-rated tandem packers? If the USPA is so concerned with the letter of the law (in this case an FAR) then they should insist upon direct rigger supervision at all times. But we all know that doesn't happen, because every DZ relies on unrated tandem packers and can't always provide a full time rigger to watch them every minute. But look out if you are a DZ that relies on static line income to make ends meet, and you decide to allow an adequetley briefed Coach put out a student.

The USPA is a fucking joke. I don't understand why you have to have a current magazine subscription to be a safe skydiver.

[dragonfyr 0]

This sounds too much like a troll, especially since you are unwilling to put any information into your profile, but I'll bite and completely disagree with you. I have to take Tom's side on this since he is spot on.

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The USPA should not be the "safety police".

I disagree, they must take on this role. Skydiving is a self regulated sport in the government eyes. If we have several dropzones not following rules, that means the government will step in and regulate it. That is the last thing this sport needs. We have seen many times where we have managed to overcome major obstacles thrown into the fray by the goverment where the USPA has stepped in and knocked those barriers down.

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Instructional ratings don't mean nearly as much as the instructor behind them. Ratings can be pencil whipped and often are. Interestingly, I know of many "pencil whipped" instructors who are far better and more effective teachers than other instructors who "earned" their ratings.

I agree there are many instructors that are not great, but you cannot be serious saying that pencil-whipping instructors is a good thing. Having a consistently applied course to train instructors is the best way to do things. If instructors are not performing, they should be re-trained or have their ratings pulled.

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If a DZ is using coaches as SL/I's then they are way ahead of the curve. I have seen 5 jump students put out static lines (successfully), and while I don't necessarily agree with the practice, I can't deny that it has worked thousands of times over many years with a safety record better than most student programs.

This is where I really started thinking you have to be a troll. This is ludicrous. Sure, a first jump student could put someone out and have a chance of succeeding, but the purpose of having "trained" instructors in the specific discipline is to learn what to do when things go to shit. Coaches are NOT trained on how to deal with these things. Having been a coach, a S/L Instructor, a Tandem instructor and an S&TA, I know for a fact that each instructor training course is drastically different and focuses on different safety aspects of that specific discipline. If a jumper is truly a student, they should be supervised by a trained instructor in that specific discipline or in a discipline related to that student's progression (e.g. an AFF I supervising a S/L progression student who has already been cleared for freefall).

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The whole nonrated static line instructor issue is just a tool for the USPA to hammer down on DZ's for political reasons - usually at the behest of other DZ's that don't even do static line.

And I'm sure it has nothing to do with trying to promote a consistent way of keeping this sport safe by promoting a consistent way of teaching?


Imagine if incidents start happening at non-regulated dropzones because they chose not to follow the USPA guidelines. Once the news and government gets hold of it, it's going to impact the entire sport. If you have specific issues with the USPA, deal with those. But you have definitely picked the wrong topic to pick a fight on.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the USPA, so I'm sure no amount of reasoning will work. But as stated earlier, I have to agree and support Tom on this.

Don

[NickDG 23]

I've taught more than my share of JCC's over the years and I know exactly how much the average jumper doesn't know about being a static line jumpmaster.

Just lately we are starting to see a rise in student accidents and if we do anything we have to fix that.

We survived a time when anyone with a "C" license was considered a jumpmaster and now we know so much more about how to handle students. To say untrained and unrated people can "handle it" is BS on the highest order . . .

NickD BASE 194

[billvon 2,434]

>The USPA should not be the "safety police". The USPA is a political
> organization . . . .

They have two charters. One, promote safe skydiving through parachuting training, rating, and competition programs. Two, represent skydiving to the mainstream (specifically the FAA) world.

>Instructional ratings don't mean nearly as much as the instructor
> behind them. Ratings can be pencil whipped and often are.
> Interestingly, I know of many "pencil whipped" instructors who are
> far better and more effective teachers than other instructors
> who "earned" their ratings.

Of course. But the opposite is true far more often. Generally, an instructional rating means it is far more likely that you are a capable instructor than someone who does not have a rating.

>If a DZ is using coaches as SL/I's then they are way ahead of the
> curve. I have seen 5 jump students put out static lines
> (successfully) . . .

I once made a BASE jump off a 150 foot bridge over water with a skydiving round reserve in a standard skydiving rig. I was successful in that I didn't die. That does NOT mean it's a good idea.

>and while I don't necessarily agree with the practice, I can't deny
>that it has worked thousands of times over many years with a safety
>record better than most student programs.

I can. It's a bad idea that will lead to dead students.

>The whole nonrated static line instructor issue is just a tool for the
> USPA to hammer down on DZ's for political reasons - usually at the
> behest of other DZ's that don't even do static line.

I have found that people who are adamant about not getting ratings are:

1) incompetent and cannot pass the course
2) have authority issues
3) want to save money or
4) have ulterior motives.

Most of those issues can lead to problems with running a student program. If someone wants to skimp on instructor training (because "we don't need no stinking ratings") isn't it more likely they may decide we don't need no stinking AAD's? If someone simply cannot fly well enough to pass the AFF JCC, what happens when they get a nightmare student who seems to want to kill them and then ball up?

>Need more convincing - how come the USPA never cracks down on
> non-rated tandem packers?

Because it's impossible to enforce. Most USPA rules are difficult or impossible to enforce. Follow them if you choose. Or break them, but be damn sure you know what you're doing, because they were written in blood. Personally, while I think it's OK to break BSR's yourself if you are 100% sure of what you are doing, it is irresponsible to break them while training students who are unaware of the risks you are taking with them.

>The USPA is a fucking joke. I don't understand why you have to have
>a current magazine subscription to be a safe skydiver.

You don't. But you do have to be a good instructor to keep your students alive. Most USPA certification programs produce mostly good instructors.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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If the USPA does investigate, would these coaches need to worry about getting in any trouble for teaching S/L class and tossing students?

Yes

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What's the worst that could happen to them?

A substantial portion of their current assets or future earnings may be directed to compensation to an injured student jumper or a student that dies under their supervision. Criminal charges have been pursued too. [Research Ted Mayfield.]

USPA would be the last of their concerns. USPA can only revoke memberships or ratings. Of course, if they do not have an I rating, there is no I rating to revoke. But USPA may state that they may never be eligible for an I rating. The Coach rating would probably be revoked, as well as their USPA membership.

Coaches should have learned about the liabilities in their coach course. Perhaps these Coaches need to re-read Section 2 of the Coach IRM.

USPA's rules and doctrine are not law, but they are considered 'industry standards' in a court of law and by the FAA. Legally, you do not need any USPA membership or rating to teach students. It's when you have to go to court that the appropriate USPA training and credentials may save you from financial ruin or criminal negligence.

In a nutshell, USPA could revoke all the memberships and ratings and they could continue to do what they are doing. If something 'bad' happens, then they'd be in a bad position to defend their actions.

If the airport authority requires GM, then the DZ would not be able to operate out of that airport if USPA revoked its GM.

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.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 7]

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The skydivers he's using as I's just got their coach ratings. If the USPA does investigate, would these coaches need to worry about getting in any trouble for teaching S/L class and tossing students? What's the worst that could happen to them?

Coaches are allowed to teach portions of the SL program and even supervise some jumps.

The first thing I would do is make damn sure what they are doing is actually wrong.

Also, the USPA is not the LAW. There is nothing against the law with you and a buddy taking a SL rig and teaching people. So, there is the USPA who wants you to THINK they are the law, and the FAA that is law.

The worst the USPA could do is kick the DZ or the individual members out of the USPA....And to be honest so what? I can think of two really great DZ's that do not require a USPA membership to jump there.

So, make sure that this DZ is actually breaking the BSR's. And please do not confuse think that a guy sent 15-20 bucks to the USPA as a better instructor than a guy that didn't.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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The worst the USPA could do is kick the DZ or the individual members out of the USPA....And to be honest so what?

Many public airports require that the dz's on them be Group Members because the BSR's state they would require everyone that jumps there to be a member for the third party liability insurance.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[scdrnr 0]

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I disagree, they must take on this role. Skydiving is a self regulated sport in the government eyes. If we have several dropzones not following rules, that means the government will step in and regulate it.

I have heard this argument before and I don't buy it. There are lots of non-USPA dropzones in existence and I don't think it has been proven that they are more dangerous than USPA DZs. I don't believe the governement stays out of skydiving merely because the USPA has it all under control. And I don't think trading the FAA for the USPA is necessarily a great thing. It has its pros and cons.

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agree there are many instructors that are not great, but you cannot be serious saying that pencil-whipping instructors is a good thing. Having a consistently applied course to train instructors is the best way to do things. If instructors are not performing, they should be re-trained or have their ratings pulled.

I'm not saying that pencil whipped instructors are a good thing. I am saying that under the present system an instructional rating is not a guarantee of quality instruction. And overall I don't think it is a big problem, because the majority of instructors (both rated and unrated) are doing a good job.

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This is where I really started thinking you have to be a troll. This is ludicrous. Sure, a first jump student could put someone out and have a chance of succeeding, but the purpose of having "trained" instructors in the specific discipline is to learn what to do when things go to shit. Coaches are NOT trained on how to deal with these things. Having been a coach, a S/L Instructor, a Tandem instructor and an S&TA, I know for a fact that each instructor training course is drastically different and focuses on different safety aspects of that specific discipline. If a jumper is truly a student, they should be supervised by a trained instructor in that specific discipline or in a discipline related to that student's progression (e.g. an AFF I supervising a S/L progression student who has already been cleared for freefall).

I never said training wasn't important. What I am saying is that you don't need to attend a 3 day USPA sanctioned course in order to put out static lines safely. If there are DZ's that have been successfully using other students to hook up static lines (and there are) then certainly a coach, AFF/I or TI can be trained to do it as well. Its not rocket science. Again, I compare it to packing. We all accept a system where some kid learns to pack from someone at the DZ (often times not even a rigger), demonstrates that they can do it safely without constant supervision, and then they are turned loose to pack tandems or sport rigs for whomever in direct violation of FAR's. Most people don't consider this to be unsafe, and I have never heard of the USPA pulling a GM for this violation.

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Imagine if incidents start happening at non-regulated dropzones because they chose not to follow the USPA guidelines. Once the news and government gets hold of it, it's going to impact the entire sport. If you have specific issues with the USPA, deal with those. But you have definitely picked the wrong topic to pick a fight on.

Incidents do happen at both USPA and non-USPA DZ's and I don't think the public or government cares one way or the other. Media reporting of skydiving accidents is already so distorted that it doesn't matter if an instructor was rated or unrated, current or uncurrent, current parachutist subsrcriber or not, all the public hears is "chute didn't open".

Yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder for the USPA. And I have my reasons and just because I disagree with you or Tom doesn't make me a troll. Skydiving can be a cutthroat industry and I have seen businesses and livelihoods destroyed by the USPA over non-existent "safety issues".

I think it is wrong to immediately jump to the conclusion that students lives are being put at risk by using non-rated SL/I's without closer examination of the specific situation.

[Ron 7]

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Many public airports require that the dz's on them be Group Members because the BSR's state they would require everyone that jumps there to be a member for the third party liability insurance.

Judy

And the legality of that is questionable. Any public airport could be in danger of losing Federal Money if they kick a DZ off based on not being a member of the USPA since the USPA is a private organization.

Also there are private Airports that do not require it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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And the legality of that is questionable. Any public airport could be in danger of losing Federal Money if they kick a DZ off based on not being a member of the USPA since the USPA is a private organization.

It is the cheapest way for the the dz to have liability insurance, otherwise they would have to try to purchase insurance elsewhere and the cost can be a bit high.

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Also there are private Airports that do not require it.

Yep.

Maybe all DZ should move to private airports so they won't encounter these problems.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 15]

Actually, I thought that it was estabilished that airports could not require anything more of one activity then then do of anything else at the airport. For example if they require a DZ to have a 1 million dollar insurance policy then all businesses operating out of the airport have to have the same restriction. If they say that all businesses operating out of the airport need to be members of a national industry association then all the gliders, flight schools and DZ's at thta airport would need to join their respective organizations.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 7]

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Actually, I thought that it was estabilished that airports could not require anything more of one activity then then do of anything else at the airport. For example if they require a DZ to have a 1 million dollar insurance policy then all businesses operating out of the airport have to have the same restriction. If they say that all businesses operating out of the airport need to be members of a national industry association then all the gliders, flight schools and DZ's at thta airport would need to join their respective organizations.

True, but that would mean to make it so you have to be a USPA member to jump there, then all the pilots there would have to be members of the AOPA to fly there.

Also if the DZ needs 1 million in insurance, then the flight school and the FBO needs 1 million as well.

The problem is often that people do not have enough money to fight BS like this, so they just abide.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NSEMN8R 0]

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Coaches are allowed to teach portions of the SL program and even supervise some jumps.

The first thing I would do is make damn sure what they are doing is actually wrong.

I don't think it is wrong. I was throwing out S/L students at about 100 jumps too. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. These coaches are every bit as competent as I was back then.

The thing is, the DZO there has done everything he can to piss off the airport manager (and most of the skydivers around here). I just got fired from there and the airprt manager called me the other day and asked if I would testify to the USPA about the un-rated instructors. He's trying to get the group membership taken away so he can get rid of this guy. To tell you the truth I wouldn't mind helping him. This DZO is a total butt cork. But I don't want to do anything that's going to screw my friends out there. It sounds like this would.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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But I don't want to do anything that's going to screw my friends out there.

Theyt know the rules, they broke'em. If their membership gets revoked, they have no one to blame besides themselves.

Derek

[MakeItHappen 15]

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But I don't want to do anything that's going to screw my friends out there. It sounds like this would.

Screwing the students is of no concern because they are not your friends.?????

Perhaps, it might be better to educate your friends, the ones with ~100 jumps, that the DZO might be taking advantage of them and that they are exposing themselves in financial or legal ways that they might not realize.

Of course, you could also contact your RD and ask her to bend the ears of these coaches.

It is not like anyone from USPA is reading this???? ;)

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.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[NSEMN8R 0]

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Theyt know the rules, they broke'em. If their membership gets revoked, they have no one to blame besides themselves.

They know the rules, but I'm pretty sure they don't know what the consequences of getting caught breaking them would be. The guy that gave them their coach ratings is the same guy that put them to work as "Jumpmasters". His "coach's course" is the same course he's been teaching for years, but before it was called a BIC/JCC.

I know they should know better, but I'm trying to look at it from their shoes. These are guys that just started jumping and have barely 100 jumps. They've never jumped anywhere else and the DZO (who's also the S&TA) says it's ok. Their are only 2 or 3 people out there with more than 200 jumps and they won't say anything about it for fear of pissing off the DZO. They know they'd be fired instantly. And they're not really doing anything unsafe. I don't want to see these kids get screwed just because they started out in a shitty situation.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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They know the rules, but I'm pretty sure they don't know what the consequences of getting caught breaking them would be.

They know they are breaking the rules. They could very easily find out what the consequences are, but they don't care.

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These are guys that just started jumping and have barely 100 jumps.

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And they're not really doing anything unsafe.

Hmmmm.

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I don't want to see these kids get screwed just because they started out in a shitty situation.

Simple, tell them to grow a backbone and quit acting as an Instructor before something bad happens.

Derek

[MakeItHappen 15]

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They know the rules, but I'm pretty sure they don't know what the consequences of getting caught breaking them would be. The guy that gave them their coach ratings is the same guy that put them to work as "Jumpmasters". His "coach's course" is the same course he's been teaching for years, but before it was called a BIC/JCC.

I know they should know better, but I'm trying to look at it from their shoes. These are guys that just started jumping and have barely 100 jumps. They've never jumped anywhere else and the DZO (who's also the S&TA) says it's ok. Their are only 2 or 3 people out there with more than 200 jumps and they won't say anything about it for fear of pissing off the DZO. They know they'd be fired instantly. And they're not really doing anything unsafe. I don't want to see these kids get screwed just because they started out in a shitty situation.

I think you ought to contact your RD or anyone else on the USPA BOD to discuss this.

I can't guarentee that the coaches will not be penalized, but in the long run they will be better off bringing this to the attention of USPA now as opposed to later.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[NWFlyer 2]

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I know they should know better, but I'm trying to look at it from their shoes. These are guys that just started jumping and have barely 100 jumps. They've never jumped anywhere else and the DZO (who's also the S&TA) says it's ok.

They can't read the SIM?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[NSEMN8R 0]

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But I don't want to do anything that's going to screw my friends out there. It sounds like this would.

Screwing the students is of no concern because they are not your friends.?????

Perhaps, it might be better to educate your friends, the ones with ~100 jumps, that the DZO might be taking advantage of them and that they are exposing themselves in financial or legal ways that they might not realize.

.

They're not screwing the students. When I started jumping 10 years ago it was considered normal for 100 jump skydivers to put students out. They're getting the exact same training I got as a student. I don't think it's any less safe now.

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Of course, you could also contact your RD and ask her to bend the ears of these coaches.

It is not like anyone from USPA is reading this???? ;)

That's why I never mentioned any names. Although, anyone who is familiar with the DZ's around here would have no doubt which one we're talking about.

[billvon 2,434]

>They're getting the exact same training I got as a student. I don't
>think it's any less safe now.

Right. But when I started we used round reserves, DC-5's and Sentinel AAD's. If you put that on a student nowadays, most skydivers would think you were being pretty cheap/foolish/negligent because there is much better gear available.

The reason we have more skydivers but not a lot more deaths than we used to is that training methods, instructors, aircraft and gear are getting better. I don't think "but it's no worse than it was 5-10-20 years ago" flies as a reason to give someone substandard training.

[NSEMN8R 0]

I'm sure they read the SIM, but who are they going to listen to? A book? A guy (me) who was fired from there? Or the DZO/S&TA?

Hopefully, the airport manager will find another way to accomplish his goal without involving the skydivers.