the 2FLY cheat

[tangram 0]

Last January, a year ago now, I joined other 4 Spanish skydivers to form a 4-Way team, Tangram. It was a serious project, we wanted to form a stable 4-way team with a clear objective: to go to the next World Air Games in two years. So we started looking around, searching for a dropzone where we could establish ourselves.

Someone told us that somebody called Alfred Kotzegger was setting up a dropzone in Castellon, Spain. Alfred already had a dropzone in Austria (http://www.2fly.at/Aut) and wanted to establish another one in Spain. He even had his own plane, nothing small, a Cessna Gran Caravan that can take 20 people to altitude within 15 minutes. And the Web seemed to confirm the seriousness of the project: he had a close relation with Olav Zipser, the famous freeflyer, with whom he was supposed to be organising the World Space Games in September in Castellon (http://www.1olav.com/news1olav.htm and http://www.2fly.at/Aut/space.htm).

It seemed to be a great opportunity for a team that was looking for a dropzone where we could establish, so we decided to go to Castellon and check their plans. The day we got there it was full of people: some Spanish skydivers we already knew and a lot of new faces, mostly foreigners that had come over to jump. It looked like something was going on there: a good infrastructure, perfect weather and a beautiful blue sky. There was pretty much activity and we where willing to jump. We were going to enjoy our first jumps as a team.

So there we went, we talked to the people in the manifest and that’s how the adventure took off. We explained them our plans for the future, we were looking for a dropzone were we could establish ourselves; we had a training plan of a weekend out of each three, that would be increased during the summer. That meant around 400 4-way-team-jumps a year for the next two years. They were very pleased to hear that so they made us a good offer. They would sell us vouchers of 100 jumps at 15 euros/jump, but we had to pay the full voucher in advance (7500 euros!). We trusted them because some Spanish people we knew was involved in the organization, the dropzone seemed serious and we had good references through the Web about these people (another dropzone, the space games, Olav…). Anyway, we agreed to buy a 50 jump voucher to start (3750 euros), until we could see how the team was working and how the dropzone was going on.

We had a wonderful weekend, full of great jumps. The packers and the plane worked non-stop until sunset. Everything seemed to be going perfect. So on Sunday afternoon we finished training and we left until the next two weeks. During those two weeks we made a couple phone calls to check that everything was going on ok, as it seemed to. The people that answered the phoned said that they were having normal activity and everything looked right.

The weekend we were supposed to train we had bad weather so we had to change it for the next one. Finally, three weeks after our first jumps, we went back to Castellon …. but what a surprise ! There was nobody there. The plane wasn’t there, the packers didn’t know anything at all: Alfred had disappeared some days ago. We couldn’t believe what was going on there, we hadn’t had any news about anything, not even a phone call, and suddenly our money had flown away.

Everything was a mess. At last, we contacted with someone who was supposed to be in charge. He told us that during the last days they had had very low activity so one morning Alfred took his plane and his people and flew away. He was supposed to send another plane back for the weekend in order to continue with the activity. Moreover they were actually waiting for that plane. It was Saturday morning, time passed but the plane never arrived. We were phoning everybody continuously trying to search an explanation, trying to know what had happened with our money, 3000 euros. But nobody answered the phone, not in Austria, not in Spain. The guy in the dropzone said he didn’t know anything about what was going on and of course even less if we asked about our money. The Spanish people we saw there the first weekend weren’t there any more and didn’t answer the phone either. It was obvious: we had been cheated. Even in that situation we didn’t want to believe it, we thought that something might had occurred and that soon everything would be clarified. But it never was.

From then on we have been trying to search an explanation and a solution until today. The people in Castellon said that they had been cheated as well, as the Spanish guy that we knew. Alfred didn’t answered the phone, neither our e-mails. After some weeks trying to contact him we had the first news. At last he had answered one of our e-mails. He didn’t offer any explanation, he said he simply left Spain because the dropzone didn’t work as he thought. But, why he didn’t say anything? He never answered that question.

He said we didn’t have to worry about anything because he was trying to send a smaller plane to Spain to continue with the activity until it would get better. But we told him we couldn’t be waiting, we needed to train. So we asked him to return us our money, the money we hadn’t jumped yet, 3000 euros. At the beginning it seemed like he didn’t like the idea, but at last he agreed. After many efforts he even asked us about our bank account details to transfer the money, and he gave us the number of a guy in Castellon that would actually transfer the money.

But it was all bullshit! He has been playing with us for 4 months during which we have been trying to get back our money. It has been a continuous cheat. No answers for weeks, absolute silence until we suddenly received good news saying that we would receive our money within a week, but then more silence for some more weeks, another e-mails… but at the end, nothing at all. Just a cheat !

He has been playing that game with us for 4 months, until three weeks ago that he definitively disappeared. He doesn’t answer the phone any more, he doesn’t answer our e-mails either, the guys that were supposed to be in Castellon have disappeared as well… and our money with all of them.

This is the sad story of another skydiving cheat. A situation that can be repeated very easily in a sport where a lot of money is managed by the dropzones with a great lack of transparency. Money changes hands, but usually no receipts are issued. The big infrastructures of the dropzones (planes, aerodromes….) confuse the skydivers giving them a false sensation of reliability and solvency. But we shouldn’t assume this that easily, in many times we are completely alone and our economic safety relies upon our luck…there is no cypress, there is no reserve, only the decency of the people that we area dealing with

[velo90 0]

No real name... Who exactly is it complaining?

[tangram 0]

sorry, I didn't have time to edit my profile ! Now, there's something there...

[gus 1]

If this is the case do you have any legal recourse? Have you considered getting some professional legal advice?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[mr2mk1g 10]

Boo - professional legal advice always on hand at Dropzone.com

It is highly likely you have a very good legal case and I would not hesitate in advising you to go see a lawyer (save for the expense - I don't know what sort of funding arrangements you have in Spain).

First step would be to threaten him with the police. Just e-mail him or leave him an answer phone message saying that you are contacting the police about his theft of your money. Just see if he doesn’t suddenly re-appear.

If he doesn’t then seriously consider seeing a lawyer - 3000EU is well out of the "put it down to experience" bracket IMHO. If what you have said is correct, should be able to get your money back for you and it should not (assuming you have similar funding systems to the UK) cost you anything.

[feuergnom 22]

oh my god! so the rumors about what happened in castellon last year are more than true! and i'm more than sorry to hear this. and it just adds more to my belief that this guy is a complete asshole.... and i wish that his name and the story is known wherever he may turn up in future

for your story: i'm afraid you won't see your money ever again, cause he fucked many austrian jumpers to - sold them like 100 tickets in advance at a time i am dead sure he knew he was out of busines at his dz (which in reality was never "his" but just the place where he had his plane. but thats another long, and very sad story...) and then he just fucked everything here. unfortunately nobody had the guts yet to do something about it.
afaik the guy's broke...

if you've got anything in hand like a receipt sue the SOB. good luck - many people would highly appreciate if you had it (me included)

(if you want to have more details on how he fucked up in austria send a pm...)

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[FrancoR 0]

Anybody want to buy an airplane from him?

http://www.aviationworldservices.com/turbopro.htm

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[benny 0]

You could track him down by posing as someone wanting to buy the plane from him...

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[JJohnson 0]

And then beat his ass....in fact hold him in a remote farm and charge a $1 a shot to hit him with a plastic baseball bat. A slow death by blunt instrument trauma.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[NZL60 0]

bingo ! sounds like he's running a scam getting the advanced jump dollars and now advertising the plane? I'd get all this in front of the cops asap... guessing this is crossing national borders as well?

Who said Kiwis can't fly?

[feuergnom 22]

i'm just wondering: how can someone try to sell a plane that doesn't belong to him anymore? afaik it belongs to the bank that holds the lease?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[FrancoR 0]

Quote

i'm just wondering: how can someone try to sell a plane that doesn't belong to him anymore? afaik it belongs to the bank that holds the lease?

Who knows who it belongs to, probably to his GmbH (limited liability company). Anyway he is just the contact person, doesn't say if its his.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[christelsabine 1]

Franco,
if he's just the manager (GF) of this Ltd., he will be in the position to sell the plane... But nobody knows exactly the terms of his contract.

It's easy to count 1 and 1, but: what in detail does everybody know? and why this engine has to be sold? probably to the favour of the Castellon dz? who knows detailed connections?? You??

Just to imagine this point...

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[FrancoR 0]

Quote

... but: what in detail does everybody know? a

nothing, so lets stop speculating.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[EDYDO 0]

That is a really expensive lesson. Escrow accounts aren't known in the skydiving world, but they would protect both parties to a sizeable agreement such as this.

Ed

[Turbo 0]

I would like to hear more about that guy A.K.
He is trying to buy a plane from us...so this could be helpful to see if he is playing fair...

[Andy9o8 0]

You really want to do 2 things: (1) Get some recourse for yourself, and (2) prevent him from doing this to others. For numerous reasons (which I won’t get into here), getting your money back may prove to be very difficult, so you may have to satisfy yourself with revenge rather than reimbursement. But if what you describe is accurate, he’s more than just a cheat, he’s a criminal, and should be treated as one. (He isn’t stealing other DZs' websites, is he?.....never mind...wrong criminals...). You (and the people cheated in Austria, etc.) are the victims of crimes. This should be reported to law enforcement authorities in Spain and Austria, etc. Let’s see how easily he moves around Europe once an Interpol arrest warrant is issued for him.

[NickDG 23]

I've seen this same sort of thing happen before. One friend was working at a local drop zone in San Diego and he's taking his pay in jump tickets. He had a shoebox full of tickets and then one day, poof, the DZO pulls out and those tickets are good for nothing but wallpaper.

Another time at Lake Elsinore, and between floods, there was an interim DZO who told jumpers if they paid ahead for the year they'd get a substantial break on prices and a lot of the more affluent (this was during the Yuppie invasion of the sport) did just that. Jumpers are forking over five and six thousand dollars and all at once. A few weeks later the airplane and the DZO disappears. Persistent rumor has it he's somewhere in Alaska.

You and your team will probably never see that money again. When you're young and trusting these things are hard to understand, but, you learned a lesson . . . and be thankful as nowadays the sport is much more full of snakes . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Andy9o8 0]

I know that buying discounted season-long ticket blocks is pretty common at very many DZs. But it’s still a bit risky, even if it’s a well-established DZ and you know and trust the DZO to be honest and ethical. Face it, owning a DZ is a tough way to make a living, and just like any other small business, DZ’s sometimes go out of business, or need to file for bankruptcy, etc. If a DZ files for bankruptcy, holders of pre-paid ticket blocks will probably be well down the food chain in priority to get paid maybe pennies on the dollar, if even that. I’m not saying you shouldn’t buy blocks of tickets, I’m just saying be careful.