0
valcore

Hard Openings Suck

Recommended Posts

>Basically, you are maligning PD and accusing them of perpetuating
>a defective, inferior product for a long period of time.

How'd you get that from what he said? It was one of the first squares and was designed to open rapidly, because when it came out, snivelly canopies were associated with ragged-out F111 canopies that didn't flare. It wasn't an inferior product, it was designed for a different market than we have today.

Once jumpers started preferring softer openings, many people retrofitted Sabres with larger sliders or pockets. Indeed, even PD came out with larger sliders and brake line mods (on their larger Sabres) to slow down the openings. In that sense they were quite responsive to market conditions. Occasionally you'll see an original unmodified Sabre; they still open harder than your average canopy. Recognizing that isn't a slam on PD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And thank you for providing more context. Again, if you look at Matt's recent statement that I referenced, it is much better than his initial statements which seemed to be maligning and unqualified generalizations in nature.

The message I get from his initial statements are:
a) my canopy is "death/paralyation on a stick" (to quote livendive from another thread).
b) PD is/was irresponsible or deceitful for making a cheap and/or design flaw
c) I was a fool for buying a Sabre
d) My DZO is an idiot or wasn't looking out for my interests

This whole issue of a Sabre1 being "modded" is new (to me) and certainly makes a difference.

I asked earlier and will again - are there many unmodified Sabre1's out there? How would one know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't have anything against PD, like I said earlier, I have jumped more PD canopies than any other manufacturer's.

Think about it like this instead. You have a Talon 2, probably a good rig in its day, but not as suitable to the multi-orientation high-speed manuevers often associated with modern skydiving. As such, I would not freefly in a Talon 2, since there are better rigs (Talon FS or Voodoo) out there. Do I think that RI was out to hurt anyone or purposely released an inferior product? Absolutely not! The sport changed, the gear changed along with it. Some people are stuck in the mud when it comes to canopies and rigs and refuse to believe that some of the new designs will flat out smoke the old ones. As such I'm sure the Jalapeno was a fine canopy for its day, but I'd rather jump a Nitron.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

(mattjw916 Oct 3, 2005, 1:47 PM) yeah... don't jump a Sabre...

With these threads being repeated time and time again it is just baffling to me why anyone would continue to jump those canopies. Granted I know a few people that jump them with no problems, but the risk seems to outweigh the benefit.

Dump the canopy and buy something used that is not so packing-sensitive. The cost of a new(er) canopy is a hell of a discount compared to medical bills for back surgery. Silhouette, Safire, Fusion, Lotus, etc are all good replacements. I'd even jump a Sabre 2 over that and I'm not a big fan of that one either.



This doesn't sound like a paranoid ranting or malinging against PD? This supports my point about the # of hard openings simply due to the law of large numbers and the lengthy history of the Sabre.

Quote

(mattjw916 Oct 3, 2005, 4:08 PM)
Read the incidents, there have been an inordinate number of injuries related to this canopy and hard openings. Do a search, this has been covered over and over and over and over again. People have been killed, broke femurs, crushed vertebrae, etc during deployment by this canopy, this is indisputable. Just because some people escape injury with modded Sabres, or are just plain lucky, doesn't mean it's "good" choice.

If my canopy had a 1 in 100 or even 1 in 500 chance of slamming the ever-loving crap out of me to the point I need to post about it on the internet and seek advice for packing, I'd trash it or sell it to the next person that believes that everything PD makes is solid gold.

When my life is on the line, I like to know the gear that is supposed to save my life, won't kill me randomly (obscure mals aside). I have dumped my Safire out of an 80% track and ~140mph and still wasn't even bruised by the opening...

Every canopy will NOT brake your femur during deployment... but ANY Sabre can. Plenty of people make lots of jumps in "gutter-gear" and live, that is, until they don't.



Or how about this?

Now compare these first two posts against this:

Quote

(mattjw916 on Oct 6, 2005, 5:52 PM)
Chances are that if they are using it for student gear, it is one (of the many) that are okay or have been modified since the gear gets used frequently. The packers of the student gear also are probably very familiar with it and know how to pack it properly. You could always ask them if you have more concerns.

I'd move on to more modern gear once you start shopping for your own rig though. Just my opinion.



Wouldn't the above be much more charitable while conveying the intended message?

Quote

I don't have anything against PD, like I said earlier, I have jumped more PD canopies than any other manufacturer's.

Think about it like this instead. You have a Talon 2, probably a good rig in its day, but not as suitable to the multi-orientation high-speed manuevers often associated with modern skydiving. As such, I would not freefly in a Talon 2, since there are better rigs (Talon FS or Voodoo) out there. Do I think that RI was out to hurt anyone or purposely released an inferior product? Absolutely not! The sport changed, the gear changed along with it. Some people are stuck in the mud when it comes to canopies and rigs and refuse to believe that some of the new designs will flat out smoke the old ones. As such I'm sure the Jalapeno was a fine canopy for its day, but I'd rather jump a Nitron.



Well, your above replies seem to indicate you DO in fact have something against PD.

As to my container, it's actually a Talon 1 ;), but that's besides the point. The whole rig was a rental that I had jumped from my DZ that was the right price that was for sale. I'm sure there are many others that were in a similar situation, in fact mnkycndo here has the same container and main as me as well - his first rig too - and he jumps at a larger dz than my former home. But again, it is used, a first rig, and I will move on to something else newere when I can afford to.

By your profile, you jump at Eloy. Not all of us are as fortunate to have all the resources of Eloy at our disposable: tons of jump planes, instruction, wind tunnel, on site gear shop with all types of canopies, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hopefully moving on...since this is about Hard Openings....

Maybe I should start this in the BASE forum, but they look hard on every video I've watched. Are they? I realize they need to be fast, which is another discouragement to BASE jump IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Read mattt's posts.



yes, it starts by saying he has nothing against PD... As stated in other posts, people have a problem with the Sabre 1 which was designed to open fast, which results in hard openings, and feel that there are better canopies out there to jump..

I then interpet that he says the Sabre 1 was never a *bad* canopy, it's just that there is better and safer stuff out now, and he would prefer to use it.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Price difference between used sabre and spectre -$700

Cost of MRI-$800

Cost of dischechtomy with plating -$10000

Cost of lost time from work-$30000

Cost of not being able to participate
in the sport you love because you
insisted on jumping an outdated canopy
that was so cheap - Priceless

Quality Saves Money

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I am greatfull for all the feedback on Sabers. I spoke to my rigger and she will put a pocket on my slider to help slow the openings. Out of the 45 jumps that I have put on my saber this is the first one to slam me. Usually I have 800 to 1000ft openings on this canopy. I terms of "gutter trash" i think that your making these canopies sound worse then they really are.

Frankly I can't afford to buy another main, I just bought a new Vector 3 container. Being military I don't have that much money to spend on replacing a main that I purchased 2 months ago. Next time I down size I will try different brands but until then I will just deal with it.

Matt I appriciate all the feedback but it seems to me that you have a personal vendetta against Saber. Did a Saber sleep with your sister :o:P:P or something because I have never meet anyone who is so much against a canopy that they take every chance they have to bad mouth a "canopy"

If you want something to gripe about you should see my current container.

It is a Vector (yea a Vector 1) made in the early 80's with velcro out the ass on it. No RSL did not used to have a Cypress. I bought the rig from another Marine for 300$ and the main that was in it was a rainbow colored Pagasis (SP?) with blood stains all over it. :|:|

The reserve was one of the first square reserves (a PD), and had a leg mounted Pilot chute, with B11 snape on the leg straps. It also has AFF handles on the leg straps

Needless to say it is not the safes rig to be jumping with. Even after I replaced both the main and reserve and added a cypres.

Could someone explain what this funnel slider is. I would like to at least hear from someone who is happy with their Saber.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My advice, take that spiffy new AAD you have, sell it, and buy a better container. :P Esp since there is a greater chance that your gear will kill you, than a no-pull... /joking

I was a poor soldier once too, so I can relate... good luck with the mod and keep that velcro in good shape! ;)
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



get MEL to make a dome slider for it. call him and he will explain. they work great - I have seen this first hand. Here is his number...

FAA Master Rigger/Owner
Skyworks Parachute Service
2222 Buffalo-West Springs Hwy.
Buffalo, SC 29321
864-429-8428

rm



This is what I am talking about a dome slider

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

My advice, take that spiffy new AAD you have, sell it, and buy a better container. :P Esp since there is a greater chance that your gear will kill you, than a no-pull... /joking

I was a poor soldier once too, so I can relate... good luck with the mod and keep that velcro in good shape! ;)



For one I have already bought a new container "Vector3" and I think selling a brand new AAD would result in me losing money in the long run.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

give MEL a call. he will explain why not to use a pocket slider.

rm



Would you mind telling everyone why they shouldn't use a pocket slider? This is the first time I've heard it, and the only reason I can come up with is MEL would not sell as many domed slider (but as far as I know, MEL wouldn't do that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

give MEL a call. he will explain why not to use a pocket slider.

rm



Would you mind telling everyone why they shouldn't use a pocket slider? This is the first time I've heard it, and the only reason I can come up with is MEL would not sell as many domed slider (but as far as I know, MEL wouldn't do that).



a pocket slider may improve the brutal openings of some Sabre1s but I believe a dome slider is better. A pocket slider is not symetrical and under certain conditions can "stand on edge" and offer very little resistance - i.e. just like a regular slider can. a dome slider will tend NOT "stand on edge" because (if you can imagine) it will correct itself. It will work more consistantly under more conditions. I am not a rigger, just repeating what he told me when I was thinking about one for my VX - never did get one. My DZO did get one and his Sabre1 170 opens great now - before he would not take it to terminal. Another thing to remember is when a canopy slams you a bunch of times you need to check the trim at the same time as doing any slider mods. The lines may need to be replaced.

rm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For clarification for everyone else:

A regular slider is the slider that came with your canopy.

A larger slider can slow down openings; PD went to larger sliders around 1995 for some sizes of Sabres. You can order larger sliders from some riggers/some manufacturers.

A pocket or kangaroo slider is a slider with a fabric 'pocket' sewn onto the leading edge. It catches more air and slows down the slider's travel down the lines. They are popular because they are easy to add later.

A dome slider is a slider with the same outside dimensions but effectively a 'pocket' in the center that allows it to bulge up. Again, catches more air and slows the slider's descent.

A flag slider has a long piece of fabric attached to the front. Theory there is that it not only catches some more air, but it 'shields' the nose from catching air for a short time after opening.

You'll sometimes see sliders with pieces cut out of them, or sliders made of mesh. These do the opposite; they speed up the opening. Used for BASE and CRW primarily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a sabre 170 and have 30 jumps on it now, the
first jump on it after i had it back from my rigger when it was hooked up and my reserves six monthly was as hard as hell and i wondered if i had made a good decision buying a sabre.But after reading previous threads on here i pack mine with the nose
rolled 4+4 and the center cell exposed and the slider pulled all the way forward, i've had no probs with this and the openings have been fine.:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0