billvon 2,400 #176 October 11, 2005 >Why does everyone call RSL's back-up devices? On a rig with an >RSL (Skyhook or not, but especially on RWS rigs, where the reserve > ripcord pin is permanently attached to the RSL lanyard, NOT to the > ripcord cable) the RSL is the PRIMARY system . . . "Primary" sometimes means 'first' and sometimes means 'dominant' or 'normal.' Some aircraft have primary and secondary (or backup) hydraulic systems that are normally used together as if they were one. You can fly on either one. >Any ideas? How about "The Skyhook can help your reserve deploy more quickly after a cutaway, but is not a substitute for well-practiced emergency procedures" or something like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCARYPERRY 0 #177 October 11, 2005 lines are outside,toggles in place.Will chop my base main,thrown stowed with slider up on my main,about 3 sedond delay when main opens,will then set up for landing and while still over the water!!!! Chop and show ya'll how this works!! Remember this is a base jump so we dont get politics or aircraft rules involved.Have trained and with experiance as well as consulting with experts in this field, all is good, and about the tail gates, have reserve in the freebag lines stowed want a snappy opening as wont have much speed under the base canopyOnly he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #178 October 11, 2005 >and about the tail gates, have reserve in the freebag lines stowed >want a snappy opening as wont have much speed under the base > canopy . . . Tailgate doesn't affect opening speed. It just keeps the rearmost lines under control for slightly longer during deployment, which helps prevent lineovers. It's pretty easy to add. >lines are outside, toggles in place. What does that mean? Did you replace the normal toggles with zoo toggles or the like? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #179 October 11, 2005 A skyhook gets your reserve to line stretch (you feel your reserve deploying) in 1/2 a second, or before you breakaway cables completely clear their housings. It takes longer than that for you to make sure both risers have released correctly, and I would never suggest pulling your reserve until you know you have a clean breakaway. By the way, the Skyhook's Collins' Lanyard takes care of that little bit of housekeeping for you automatically in about 1/10 of a second. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #180 October 11, 2005 Quotejust took my slider off my reserve for bridge day!! No rigger involved and after choppen over the river, will let a rigger put it pack and sign card, lets see what happens at b day!!Flame on, but I bet my life on this deployment system and so far there is nothing in my mind that can shave those precious feet as effectivly Would you chop at 101ft slider up? Nice to see you back on DZ.com, Perry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCARYPERRY 0 #181 October 11, 2005 Only given NO other choice, just stacken odds my brother!!!! container open, tail gate,rubber band......Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #182 October 11, 2005 Quotelines are outside,toggles in place. Are the lines outside of the guide rings? That's how I'm reading this. You must have a "Line Release Mod" (which is standard on BASE risers) if the brake lines are outside of the guide rings. If you don't have the line release the lines must go through the guide rings. The tailgate or masking tape won't affect opening speed. It simply keeps the lines in place until the bottom skin inflates.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #183 October 11, 2005 QuoteJust to stir up the pot a little...Why does everyone call RSL's back-up devices? On a rig with an RSL (Skyhook or not, but especially on RWS rigs, where the reserve ripcord pin is permanently attached to the RSL lanyard, NOT to the ripcord cable) the RSL is the PRIMARY system, which pulls the pin after a breakaway from a partial malfunction. It is the reserve ripcord that is the back-up device, because you don't have to pull it unless the RSL fails. Some of the people involved in this thread aren't even aware that the Skyhook is an RSL...so I doubt they are aware of your RSL-direct reserve pin connection. QuoteActually, I have been trying to come up with a "disclaimer" for the Skyhook cartoon ad, but everything I write sounds stupid (No, you can't quote me on that.). Any ideas? Individual Emergency Procedures may vary. You should always discuss your Emergency Procedures with a currently rated Instructor or S&TA.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #184 October 11, 2005 Quote A skyhook gets your reserve to line stretch (you feel your reserve deploying) in 1/2 a second, or before you breakaway cables completely clear the end of the housing attached to the main lift webbing. It takes longer than that for you to make sure both risers have released correctly, and I would never suggest pulling your reserve until you know you have a clean breakaway or until you are really low where something is better than nothing. By the way, the Skyhook's Collins' Lanyard takes care of that little bit of housekeeping for you automatically in about 1/10 of a second provided the drag from the risers is sufficient to pull the reserve/RSL pin. The SkyHook seems to be faster than an rsl for many situations. I remember you telling me that your test jumpers did not test horseshoe mals because of their inherent danger. That is a good thing. The situation of a horseshoe (premature container opening with PC still in pouch) is worth looking at. I think the SkyHook may increase the probability of a main and reserve entanglement in this type of horseshoe mal. The SkyHook essentially shortens the reserve bridle line and uses the drag from the cutaway main to act as the drag of the reserve PC to deploy the reserve, unless the reserve pc catches air first and the SH disconnects from the reserve bridle line. I made two little pics to show the differences. Pic 1 shows a PC (without a SkyHook) trying to blow by the cutaway main that is still attached to a jumper via a stuck pc. Pic 2 shows the SkyHook trying to blow by the cutaway main that is still attached to a jumper via a stuck pc. If the reserve pc with the SH inflates, it is likely that the reserve will find clear air to inflate in, but not if the reserve pc goes through the lines of the main or something similar. If the reserve pc with the SH does not catch air immediately, and is still attached to the SH wraps the trailing main, then I think that a main-reserve entanglement is almost a certainty. The remaining length of the reserve bridle line may provide enough drag for the reserve canopy to come out of the reserve bag, but maybe not. You can also get more slack in the reserve deployment (from the SH point of attachment to the reserve risers) that will allow the reserve (bag and or lines) to flap around and become entangled with the trailing main. At best you could hope for the drag on the reserve lines to pull the reserve canopy out of the bag, even if the bag is attached someplace along the trailing main. I think this is a failure mode of the SkyHook that has not been tested, not been explained and kind of glossed over. (I certainly do not recommend asking test jumpers to test this either.) .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #185 October 11, 2005 Quote >Any ideas? How about "The Skyhook can help your reserve deploy more quickly after a cutaway, but is not a substitute for well-practiced emergency procedures" or something like that. I like it...especially the "something like that" part. How much are you going to charge me for your copy writing services? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #186 October 11, 2005 Horse shoe malfunctions were a very important consideration in designing the Skyhook. If the Skyhook lanyard "locked" onto the reserve bridle as soon as it was loaded, it couldn't handle a horse shoe. That's why it has an automatic quick release feature if the reserve pilot chute ever starts traveling away from the jumper faster than the broken away malfunction. Of course, I don't really know if a Skyhook will help, hurt, or do nothing to improve your odds of deploying your reserve past a still half-attached horse shoe malfunction...there are simply too many variables, and the test jumps would simply be too dangerous. And some, or even most horseshoes, won't even open the riser covers. However, if you watch the baglock portion of the Skyhook video, the very low drag bag lock not only helps the pilot chute out of the burble, it actually throws it to the side before releasing it to finish the deployment. The risers leaving in an attempted breakaway from a horse shoe might do the same...that is "throw" the pilot chute slightly to the side around the horseshoe, thus actually improving your odds. No guarantees though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #187 October 11, 2005 >How much are you going to charge me for your copy writing services? My standard fee is one beer. A pitcher if overtime is involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #188 October 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnother point is, he doesn't jump one himself. Sorry, I don't get your point. That could be because you're taking one sentence from a post comprising many others. Or it could be that there are two points in the post and you are confused by the simplicity of the first point. "Bill Booth does not jump a Skyhook". That's all. A point. It has nothing to do with whether or not the skyhook saves. Together, the collection of other sentences will detail my second point. It is my belief that although the Skyhook saves lives, it does so at the cost of the complacency, and the allowance of some would-be burnouts/bowlers to continue in this sport with the concept that they are making way. Furthermore, you may argue against this all you wish, but the bottom line is that the advert for the device in question states that their product will truncate their EPs and leave them smiling in their harness. Anyone disputing this, well they use as their primary argument that you'd have to be retarded to think a piece of safety gear will take precedence over you and your own personal abilities to keep you alive. I say this statement is absolutely correct, but that doesn't mean it don't happen. So, derived for you are my points. 1)Bill Booth has his reasons for not jumping a Skyhook. 2)Devices like the skyhook allow retarded people to "excel" in a sport which just isn't for them. That just about cole's-notes it for you don't it? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #189 October 12, 2005 Marc Procos - RWS Sales and Marketing Director - jumps a Skyhook. I believe he has over 13,000 jumps.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #190 October 12, 2005 >2)Devices like the skyhook allow retarded people to "excel" in a >sport which just isn't for them. A few points. 1) A skyhook (or cypres, or RSL, or whatever) does nothing to help you excel. It just helps prevent injury or death under certain situations. 2.) Such devices have saved both marginal skydivers and experts. 3.) The danger in such devices, in my opinion, is not that they will save marginal skydivers. Heck, that's a good thing! The danger is that they give the impression that they can make skydiving much safer than it really is. Thus someone who questions their ability to pull on time might not jump without a dytter and a cypres, and it could be argued that such a person is better off on the ground to begin with. They are expecting too much of these devices. Thus the dytter and cypres are acting as sort of a psychological 'crutch'; it is this crutch, caused by a misunderstanding of what the device can do, that can cause problems. And in my opinion, that's a problem with the skydiver, not the device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #191 October 12, 2005 1)It does do one thing for the retarded to help them "excel", and that's keep them feeling safe enough to continue jumping, when perhaps, they should be doing other things with their time. That was all I said; you yourself agreed at the time. Even with mention of a disclaimer, we have statements being made to the tune of "Then, they'll just find some other way to kill themselves." This sport is not for everyone... but it certainly is becoming (deceivingly) so. 2)I certainly haven't said otherwise 3)You are paraphrasing my post in this number 3 of yours. This is just what I'm saying! You won't hear me complain that someone was saved from death, that's just morbid. Just that gear like this, along with it's marketing, suggest that the things we do are childs play. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #192 October 12, 2005 >It does do one thing for the retarded to help them "excel", and > that's keep them feeling safe enough to continue jumping . . . I guess we just have different definitions of 'excel' and 'retarded' then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryno1972 0 #193 October 12, 2005 I see your point, Parachutist has published photos of skydivers jumping over what appears to be a completely overcast sky. So if an advertisement is omitting a step, then I would just write it off as that, an advertisement. I have not been jumping that long, but I practive EP at LEAST 3 or 4 times before exit. Even if I had a skyhook, I would be smiling, having saved my own life and stuffing both handles in my jumpsuit (or saying "dangit" if i dropped one) Rynoglad to be here!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #194 October 12, 2005 Quote2)Devices like the skyhook allow retarded people to "excel"survive in a sport which just isn't for them. Fixed it for you bro. Those devices DO have a genuinely positive influence on the sport as a whole, but idirectly have had what I consider to be a negative effect occasionaly.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #195 October 12, 2005 Bill Booth DOES jump a Skyhook. I also use a hand deploy pilot chute, a 3-ring release, and a Vigil AAD. I need all the help I can get! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #196 October 12, 2005 QuoteBill Booth does not jump a Skyhook. Where'd you see that? Seems kind of strange to me... NEVERMIND... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #197 October 12, 2005 Yes, but you left out all the important stuff! How cool does your freefly suit look? Do you have something cool embroidered on your reserve handle? What color is your hackey/monkeyfist? One day I'd like to make a jump with ya Bill.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites IanHarrop 37 #198 October 12, 2005 Us guys with beards don't need any of that other crap to be cool - we just are! "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #199 October 12, 2005 QuoteDo you have something cool embroidered on your reserve handle? What color is your hackey/monkeyfist? One day I'd like to make a jump with ya Bill..... I try to read all of Booth's posts. From them, I'd bet you ten minutes of tunnel time Bill jumps some form of D ring...Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #200 October 12, 2005 Not really, you've paraphrased what I was saying in your own post. Simply, I am refering to gear dependent and comfortably misinformed jumpers as "retarded", and I am using the word "excel" in reference to progression through whichever course they may have entered to obtain a licence to skydive on their own. I think I'm just less pollitically correct about it. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 8 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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HydroGuy 0 #189 October 12, 2005 Marc Procos - RWS Sales and Marketing Director - jumps a Skyhook. I believe he has over 13,000 jumps.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #190 October 12, 2005 >2)Devices like the skyhook allow retarded people to "excel" in a >sport which just isn't for them. A few points. 1) A skyhook (or cypres, or RSL, or whatever) does nothing to help you excel. It just helps prevent injury or death under certain situations. 2.) Such devices have saved both marginal skydivers and experts. 3.) The danger in such devices, in my opinion, is not that they will save marginal skydivers. Heck, that's a good thing! The danger is that they give the impression that they can make skydiving much safer than it really is. Thus someone who questions their ability to pull on time might not jump without a dytter and a cypres, and it could be argued that such a person is better off on the ground to begin with. They are expecting too much of these devices. Thus the dytter and cypres are acting as sort of a psychological 'crutch'; it is this crutch, caused by a misunderstanding of what the device can do, that can cause problems. And in my opinion, that's a problem with the skydiver, not the device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #191 October 12, 2005 1)It does do one thing for the retarded to help them "excel", and that's keep them feeling safe enough to continue jumping, when perhaps, they should be doing other things with their time. That was all I said; you yourself agreed at the time. Even with mention of a disclaimer, we have statements being made to the tune of "Then, they'll just find some other way to kill themselves." This sport is not for everyone... but it certainly is becoming (deceivingly) so. 2)I certainly haven't said otherwise 3)You are paraphrasing my post in this number 3 of yours. This is just what I'm saying! You won't hear me complain that someone was saved from death, that's just morbid. Just that gear like this, along with it's marketing, suggest that the things we do are childs play. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #192 October 12, 2005 >It does do one thing for the retarded to help them "excel", and > that's keep them feeling safe enough to continue jumping . . . I guess we just have different definitions of 'excel' and 'retarded' then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryno1972 0 #193 October 12, 2005 I see your point, Parachutist has published photos of skydivers jumping over what appears to be a completely overcast sky. So if an advertisement is omitting a step, then I would just write it off as that, an advertisement. I have not been jumping that long, but I practive EP at LEAST 3 or 4 times before exit. Even if I had a skyhook, I would be smiling, having saved my own life and stuffing both handles in my jumpsuit (or saying "dangit" if i dropped one) Rynoglad to be here!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #194 October 12, 2005 Quote2)Devices like the skyhook allow retarded people to "excel"survive in a sport which just isn't for them. Fixed it for you bro. Those devices DO have a genuinely positive influence on the sport as a whole, but idirectly have had what I consider to be a negative effect occasionaly.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #195 October 12, 2005 Bill Booth DOES jump a Skyhook. I also use a hand deploy pilot chute, a 3-ring release, and a Vigil AAD. I need all the help I can get! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #196 October 12, 2005 QuoteBill Booth does not jump a Skyhook. Where'd you see that? Seems kind of strange to me... NEVERMIND... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #197 October 12, 2005 Yes, but you left out all the important stuff! How cool does your freefly suit look? Do you have something cool embroidered on your reserve handle? What color is your hackey/monkeyfist? One day I'd like to make a jump with ya Bill.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #198 October 12, 2005 Us guys with beards don't need any of that other crap to be cool - we just are! "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #199 October 12, 2005 QuoteDo you have something cool embroidered on your reserve handle? What color is your hackey/monkeyfist? One day I'd like to make a jump with ya Bill..... I try to read all of Booth's posts. From them, I'd bet you ten minutes of tunnel time Bill jumps some form of D ring...Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #200 October 12, 2005 Not really, you've paraphrased what I was saying in your own post. Simply, I am refering to gear dependent and comfortably misinformed jumpers as "retarded", and I am using the word "excel" in reference to progression through whichever course they may have entered to obtain a licence to skydive on their own. I think I'm just less pollitically correct about it. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
