Lindsey 0 #101 October 7, 2005 "Enough. If you can't discuss the issue, don't discuss it at all," he murmured as his subject gazed upon the phallus that he had constructed as a means of correction for his numerous improprieties.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #102 October 7, 2005 Quote"Enough. If you can't discuss the issue, don't discuss it at all," he murmured as his subject gazed upon the phallus that he had constructed as a means of correction for his numerous improprieties. QuoteToday a surgeon I've been working with told me about a woman who heard if she cut a potato and put it in her vagina she wouldn't get pregnant. She came to him when she had leaves growing out her "Virginia." Oh my.... I guess it takes all kinds. LMAO, and I'm pretty sure even I wouldn't be making salad with leaves out the V - as a bc device the vegetables would, in fact, succeed. On topic, pretty soon a dz cartoon will be ripped for not being authentic. I'm quite young in the sport and would not have considered (puhlease) changing my EPs. If someone is clueless enough to change their EPs based on a cartoon in an advertisement, someone in their skydiving career should have already had the serious TUG conversation with them. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #103 October 7, 2005 QuoteRemember the couple riggers in the North East that did SkyHook Breakaways below 400-500 ft agl, but had their reserves packed slider off? It wasn't long before I heard newer jumpers telling me (I was in gear sales at the time) that the SkyHook was great because you could cutaway lower. As RWS jumper Egon Susseman (BSBD) realized, it is NOT a good idea: "JC (RWS Production Manager) and I decided to both kit up with Skyhook Equipped Test Rigs and off we were in the heli for a 3grand hop and pop! Our intention was to both start spinning and break away together and bang what a nice show! Not quite - me being the clown I am at times do also make stupid mistakes and this is why we have AAD's, etc - for when we totally f@#k up!!! Well, upon gear inspection I did not check my RSL shackle and ensure it was connected - doo! Ok! Off we go and at 1000ft we decided to break away and shit - nothing has come off my back. I look back - nothing Looked at my silver and saw the swoop pond coming at me at a pace... pulled silver and in the saddle a little relieved and pissed at myself..." "...The guys that did the 100ft breakaways - yes I was there and these boys yes are experienced base jumpers, but they were also tickling the Lions balls..." Source: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1587986#1587986 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #104 October 7, 2005 Quote Dumb people will amaze you when you think you've seen everything. New sig line, thanks :)cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #105 October 7, 2005 QuoteIf running responsible advertisements in the official publication of USPA that do not advocate proper emergency procedures being changed add $500 per rig, RWS has a management problem. Really, so if they did the ads like the big corporations and did everything that was listed, what would the cost be per container? The point that I was trying to make is that you can document your self out of business. The only reason I took it to an extreme is because some of the responses did and I was showing the unreasonableness of it. And speaking of Parachutist the “official publication of the USPA”, how remiss of them for not catching this in editing and allowing it to be published. YES I’m kidding! I guess the thing that gets me the most about this is the thought that a skydiver would look at an ad and say wow, I guess I need to forget the rest of my emergency procedures that are in the SIM, instruction and owners manuals, data labels on all of the equipment and all of the instruction that I received. And since it conflicts with everything that I have ever read or been taught I am not even going to question it of discuss it with anyone. I think this goes back to the saying “skydiving is not for everyone”. So let's look at the reality of it. The ad only shows a snap shot of time of the whole EP sequence to show what a product would do. In neither case does it show any of the EP's before or after that time frame nor does it show every EP for every malfunction. So for the time period given, proper EP’s were given. The ad did not say stop all EP’s at this point. So in the end I guess all ads now will have the fine print disclaimers at bottom. Or maybe Parachutist will have to put a page before the advertisements that says"the following pages are advertisement and should not be substituted or used as instruction or EP's". The above is my personal opinion only.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #106 October 7, 2005 Quote The point that I was trying to make is that you can document your self out of business. The only reason I took it to an extreme is because some of the responses did and I was showing the unreasonableness of it. As I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your reasoning behind running that ad. QuoteAnd speaking of Parachutist the “official publication of the USPA”, how remiss of them for not catching this in editing and allowing it to be published. Yes, they should have said something about the ad. QuoteI guess the thing that gets me the most about this is the thought that a skydiver would look at an ad and say wow, I guess I need to forget the rest of my emergency procedures that are in the SIM, instruction and owners manuals, data labels on all of the equipment and all of the instruction that I received. And since it conflicts with everything that I have ever read or been taught I am not even going to question it of discuss it with anyone. I think this goes back to the saying “skydiving is not for everyone”. Even experienced jumpers can be misled by unrealistic claims in advertising, as Airtec has learned recently. Unfortunately, sometimes the advertisements and articles in Parachutist are the primary source of information for new skydivers off student status. DZ.com has helped in this area, but has not remedied the situation entirely. You are absolutely right, skydiving isn't for everyone. QuoteSo let's look at the reality of it. The ad only shows a snap shot of time of the whole EP sequence to show what a product would do. In neither case does it show any of the EP's before or after that time frame nor does it show every EP for every malfunction. So for the time period given, proper EP’s were given. The ad did not say stop all EP’s at this point. It did not say to stop EPs at that point, but it implied it with the smile bit. I've had my fair share of mals, and I can't remember ever smiling during the EPs. By your logic, we cannot know that it is even a skydive because the ad didn't specifically mention exiting an aircraft. QuoteSo in the end I guess all ads now will have the fine print disclaimers at bottom. An improvement over this month, but it would be better still to not be misleading with the large print. The Vector3/Micron is an outstanding rig, with many fine qualities worthy of mentioning in an advertisement. This moth's ad, however, missed the mark. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #107 October 7, 2005 I think this goes back to the saying “skydiving is not for everyone”. I agree, except I would've put the period inside the quotation marks. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #108 October 7, 2005 QuoteAs I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your reasoning behind running that ad.According to whom?QuoteYes, they should have said something about the ad.First, please stop quoting me out of context; second, clearly by your response you might check around about advertising in the real world.QuoteIt did not say to stop EPs at that point, but it implied it with the smile bit.You’re joking right? You may have perceived it that way but as previously stated it was never intended or implied to stop any emergency procedures.QuoteAn improvement over this month, but it would be better still to not be misleading with the large print.You’re kidding again, right? And yes it is a rhetorical question. My personal opinion only.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #109 October 7, 2005 QuoteAccording to whom? Let's see. You essentially said that you cannot run responsible advertising campaigns because they would add $500 to the price of each new rig. Yet you can afford to run irresponsible ads. That is absurd reasoning on your part. QuoteFirst, please stop quoting me out of context; second, clearly by your response you might check around about advertising in the real world USPA has a responsibility to its members, and the editors of Parachutist should be aware of that. ***You’re joking right? You may have perceived it that way but as previously stated it was never intended or implied to stop any emergency procedures.Quote As I previously stated that I was sure that RWS does not advocate not completing emergency procedures in the event of a malfunction. The ad, unfortunately, is not consistent with that philosophy. You’re kidding again, right? And yes it is a rhetorical question.Quote Did it sound like I was kidding? Did you see a or a or a ? I was quite serious, and you should take the comment as such. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #110 October 7, 2005 QuoteLet's see. You essentially said that you cannot run responsible advertising campaigns because they would add $500 to the price of each new rig. Yet you can afford to run irresponsible ads. That is absurd reasoning on your part. No, it is not absurd and no I did not "essentially" say that. It was a response to several comments, some of which were clearly unreasonable and it was used to show that. Clearly no company in this industry is going to do that for several reasons. And you still have not answered my question.QuoteUSPA has a responsibility to its members, and the editors of Parachutist should be aware of that.So now the USPA is not aware of what their responsibility to its members is?QuoteThe ad, unfortunately, is not consistent with that philosophy.NOT!QuoteDid it sound like I was kidding? Did you see a or a or a ? I was quite serious, and you should take the comment as such.Look up the meaning of what I wrote in its complete wording. And I always give all comments their due consideration. My personal opinion onlyTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #111 October 7, 2005 QuoteNo, it is not absurd and no I did not "essentially" say that. Yes, you essentially said just that. As to an answer to your question, I post for myself, but if you have read the rest of this thread, I am not alone in thinking RWS could have used better judgement with respect for the ad. QuoteSo now the USPA is not aware of what their responsibility to its members is? You are twisting my words a bit there. I don't think it would be difficult to find members that feel exactly that way, though. QuoteLook up the meaning of what I wrote in its complete wording. And I always give all comments their due consideration Apparently not. For the record, I quoted the paragraph "in its complete wording." For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #112 October 7, 2005 >Clearly no company in this industry is going to do that for several reasons. Airtec did for quite some time. They had a disclaimer along the lines of "cypres is a backup only and is no substitute blah blah blah." Last time I checked they weren't out of business, so it's doable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cloudi 0 #113 October 7, 2005 Sooo...anyways... Personally, I think the ad is fine the way it is, but respect your decision to add a disclaimer for those who are reading too much from the ad and what they feel it lacks. I didn't get that inference from the ad, but then again, I'm not so easily influenced by advertising anyway. Just so you know, the majority of your current/past/potential customers in the skydiving "gene pool" can easily discern between advertising and instruction. With the Skyhook, just like an AAD, parachute, reserve parachute, helmet, altimeter, harness/container system, etc., it is our responsibility to RTFM for every piece of equipment we leave the door of the airplane with. Anyone who views a piece of advertising as any sort of instruction or strict guideline for the use of the product is also likely waiting for their cat to sing because they fed it Meow Mix. The point is, you have a great product that will likely save many lives, not by replacing EP's, but by potentially beating us to them. Most of us "get" that. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #114 October 7, 2005 A few years ago, I posted a poll here on DZ.com. I asked, if your RSL/Skyhook/Whatever opens the canopy, would you bother pulling the reserve handle? Here are the results 17% of respondents answered no, they wouldn't bother pulling the reserve handle. Now, take what you will from the poll, but in my opinion if RWS thinks 100% of people should still pull the reserve handle, then they need to reinforce that with their literature, advertisements, public speeches and everything else they can think of. I'm really sorry if your marketing people want to charge you a gazillion dollars to do this - if you want, you can send me the proof, and I'll photoshop the asterisk and text in, and email it back to you. No charge Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #115 October 7, 2005 QuoteAirtec did for quite some time. They had a disclaimer along the lines of "cypres is a backup only and is no substitute blah blah blah." Last time I checked they weren't out of business, so it's doable.I was not talking about the disclaimer. I was talking about all the people that are used in large corporations.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #116 October 7, 2005 Quote17% of respondents answered no, they wouldn't bother pulling the reserve handle. I don't think this is significant. If I chop and have a hold of my reserve handle and "whump" I see a good canopy, I stop pulling handles (I don't care how fast that device works, but I do bet a case that my hand is on that handle by then). It eliminates threading them back in and stowing them. That said, if I was low, I'm definitely in a race to pull that silver before the RSL (type device at least as far as general conceptual function) does. And all my reserve rides (except the total) I had sufficient altitude such that I cut away, got stable, checked altitude and then pulled. So in each, I suspect that a skyhook or RSL would have resulted in my not pulling that handle. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #117 October 7, 2005 QuoteI don't think this is significant. If you don't think 1 in 6 skydivers not following through on EPs is significant, that's one thing. What I am saying is that if RWS thinks it's significant, then they should put more energy into getting the message through. Question is: do they think it's significant? Booth has already committed to making sure the ad changes, so I guess the answer is yes.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #118 October 7, 2005 QuoteYes, you essentially said just that.No, there is no ambiguity here, I did not say that. QuoteYou are twisting my words a bit there. I don't think it would be difficult to find members that feel exactly that way, though.Since I did not quote you I could not twist your words. I asked a question. And again you still have not answered my original question with all of your advertising wisdom. Please impress me!QuoteApparently not. For the record, I quoted the paragraph "in its complete wording."I was not talking about if you quoted the complete wording. Go read it again. What I was questioning was comprehension and an appropriate response. And now you are saying that you know what I considered or not? You know more about what I thought than I did? Damn that is impressive! My personal opinion onlyTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #119 October 7, 2005 >I'm really sorry if your marketing people want to charge you a gazillion dollars to do this . . . While I'm flattered you would confuse me with him, this is the cellphone designer Bill, not the rig designer Bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #120 October 7, 2005 Quote>do we REALLY have to encourage the use of insulting, >everybody-already-knows-that advice? Yes, because some skydivers really don't know that. Unfortunately, we need warnings on wingsuits not to land them, and warnings on cypreses that they are no substitute for emergency procedures. Because history has shown that if you don't tell people over and over that the cypres is fallible, they will start to believe it's infallible... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Interesting, but isn't the purpose of these disclaimers simply an attempt to deflect ridiculous lawsuits, rather than an effort to inform? Unfortunately, I believe you're correct when you say that someone, somewhere, would attempt to land a wingsuit... Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #121 October 7, 2005 I didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #122 October 7, 2005 QuoteWhile I'm flattered you would confuse me with him, this is the cellphone designer Bill, not the rig designer Bill. Yeah, I know who you are Bill I just thought your response was a good and thoughtful one (as usual), and I was backing you up. Then I started going off a bit on the end - but that was directed at RWS, not you. I guess discussion dynamics don't work as well over the internet.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #123 October 7, 2005 QuoteI didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 I have waited. This ad was released nearly 3 years after the Skyhook was introduced. Until now, we have done very little print advertising for it. Instead, we have taken it around to boogies, and let jumpers try it for themselves. About 300 have. And yes, there has been an "epidemic" of low pulls lately...two died at Rantoul alone. The "normal" number is about 3 a year in the US. If you think the "no-Skyhook" cartoon was a little long, watch the end of the Skyhook video. The jumper took nearly 5 seconds to locate and pull his reserve AFTER breaking away. At the speed he was going, that's at least 600 feet. In this case the ad was meant to be at least a bit instructive. It can, and probably will, take you a lot longer than you think to pull your reserve after riding a bad spinner on you back. Also notice that it took him a full 4 seconds to locate and pull his breakaway handle after he started reaching for it. That's 9 seconds total AFTER the decision to breakaway was made before the reserve was pulled...and this guy had a LOT of jumps. How well are YOU going to do the first time you breakaway from a 3 "G" spinner that can scrambled you brain in just a few seconds? The Skyhook is not for when things go right. Just like an AAD, it is for times when you have already forfeited your life because of poor planning or execution of your skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #124 October 7, 2005 QuoteThe point is, you have a great product that will likely save many lives, not by replacing EP's, but by potentially beating us to them. Most of us "get" that. Another point is, he doesn't jump one himself. Quote I would never have my hand on a reserve ripcord handle, or even be looking at it, when I cutaway. Two reasons: 1. I want to be sure that both risers leave before I pull the reserve ripcord. 2. I want to be "stable" enough to safely deploy my last canopy. -Bill Booth Hmmm. Nomatter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. The ad was funny, I "got it". I would not have made this type of stink about it but now that the point is raised, I don't think it's difficult for a brand new jumper to have been misled. New gear!!... newer then the SIM he/she read. What other references do they have to the skyhook? Oh, video of a couple people cutting away at 100ft! That's terrific footage for a new jumper to watch. Think people. You may think the concern is silly... you are not learning to skydive today, when just about anyone with a bit of $$$ can get in the air. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #125 October 7, 2005 QuoteHmmm. No matter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. Safety devices like the Skyhook don't allow retarded people to jump, any more than do reserve canopies. Even the best and smartest jumpers in the world have bad days, make mistakes and sometimes even do reckless things intentionally. That doesn't make them stupid. Safety devices give good jumpers a second chance to hopefully improve both who they are and how they jump. They give thoughtless jumpers a reason to think and also improve. They give people who have been reckless in the past a reason not to be reckless in the future. Every person on this planet that is the best at something was once a miserable failure at that same thing.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 5 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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MikeForsythe 0 #110 October 7, 2005 QuoteLet's see. You essentially said that you cannot run responsible advertising campaigns because they would add $500 to the price of each new rig. Yet you can afford to run irresponsible ads. That is absurd reasoning on your part. No, it is not absurd and no I did not "essentially" say that. It was a response to several comments, some of which were clearly unreasonable and it was used to show that. Clearly no company in this industry is going to do that for several reasons. And you still have not answered my question.QuoteUSPA has a responsibility to its members, and the editors of Parachutist should be aware of that.So now the USPA is not aware of what their responsibility to its members is?QuoteThe ad, unfortunately, is not consistent with that philosophy.NOT!QuoteDid it sound like I was kidding? Did you see a or a or a ? I was quite serious, and you should take the comment as such.Look up the meaning of what I wrote in its complete wording. And I always give all comments their due consideration. My personal opinion onlyTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #111 October 7, 2005 QuoteNo, it is not absurd and no I did not "essentially" say that. Yes, you essentially said just that. As to an answer to your question, I post for myself, but if you have read the rest of this thread, I am not alone in thinking RWS could have used better judgement with respect for the ad. QuoteSo now the USPA is not aware of what their responsibility to its members is? You are twisting my words a bit there. I don't think it would be difficult to find members that feel exactly that way, though. QuoteLook up the meaning of what I wrote in its complete wording. And I always give all comments their due consideration Apparently not. For the record, I quoted the paragraph "in its complete wording." For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #112 October 7, 2005 >Clearly no company in this industry is going to do that for several reasons. Airtec did for quite some time. They had a disclaimer along the lines of "cypres is a backup only and is no substitute blah blah blah." Last time I checked they weren't out of business, so it's doable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #113 October 7, 2005 Sooo...anyways... Personally, I think the ad is fine the way it is, but respect your decision to add a disclaimer for those who are reading too much from the ad and what they feel it lacks. I didn't get that inference from the ad, but then again, I'm not so easily influenced by advertising anyway. Just so you know, the majority of your current/past/potential customers in the skydiving "gene pool" can easily discern between advertising and instruction. With the Skyhook, just like an AAD, parachute, reserve parachute, helmet, altimeter, harness/container system, etc., it is our responsibility to RTFM for every piece of equipment we leave the door of the airplane with. Anyone who views a piece of advertising as any sort of instruction or strict guideline for the use of the product is also likely waiting for their cat to sing because they fed it Meow Mix. The point is, you have a great product that will likely save many lives, not by replacing EP's, but by potentially beating us to them. Most of us "get" that. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #114 October 7, 2005 A few years ago, I posted a poll here on DZ.com. I asked, if your RSL/Skyhook/Whatever opens the canopy, would you bother pulling the reserve handle? Here are the results 17% of respondents answered no, they wouldn't bother pulling the reserve handle. Now, take what you will from the poll, but in my opinion if RWS thinks 100% of people should still pull the reserve handle, then they need to reinforce that with their literature, advertisements, public speeches and everything else they can think of. I'm really sorry if your marketing people want to charge you a gazillion dollars to do this - if you want, you can send me the proof, and I'll photoshop the asterisk and text in, and email it back to you. No charge Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #115 October 7, 2005 QuoteAirtec did for quite some time. They had a disclaimer along the lines of "cypres is a backup only and is no substitute blah blah blah." Last time I checked they weren't out of business, so it's doable.I was not talking about the disclaimer. I was talking about all the people that are used in large corporations.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #116 October 7, 2005 Quote17% of respondents answered no, they wouldn't bother pulling the reserve handle. I don't think this is significant. If I chop and have a hold of my reserve handle and "whump" I see a good canopy, I stop pulling handles (I don't care how fast that device works, but I do bet a case that my hand is on that handle by then). It eliminates threading them back in and stowing them. That said, if I was low, I'm definitely in a race to pull that silver before the RSL (type device at least as far as general conceptual function) does. And all my reserve rides (except the total) I had sufficient altitude such that I cut away, got stable, checked altitude and then pulled. So in each, I suspect that a skyhook or RSL would have resulted in my not pulling that handle. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #117 October 7, 2005 QuoteI don't think this is significant. If you don't think 1 in 6 skydivers not following through on EPs is significant, that's one thing. What I am saying is that if RWS thinks it's significant, then they should put more energy into getting the message through. Question is: do they think it's significant? Booth has already committed to making sure the ad changes, so I guess the answer is yes.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #118 October 7, 2005 QuoteYes, you essentially said just that.No, there is no ambiguity here, I did not say that. QuoteYou are twisting my words a bit there. I don't think it would be difficult to find members that feel exactly that way, though.Since I did not quote you I could not twist your words. I asked a question. And again you still have not answered my original question with all of your advertising wisdom. Please impress me!QuoteApparently not. For the record, I quoted the paragraph "in its complete wording."I was not talking about if you quoted the complete wording. Go read it again. What I was questioning was comprehension and an appropriate response. And now you are saying that you know what I considered or not? You know more about what I thought than I did? Damn that is impressive! My personal opinion onlyTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #119 October 7, 2005 >I'm really sorry if your marketing people want to charge you a gazillion dollars to do this . . . While I'm flattered you would confuse me with him, this is the cellphone designer Bill, not the rig designer Bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #120 October 7, 2005 Quote>do we REALLY have to encourage the use of insulting, >everybody-already-knows-that advice? Yes, because some skydivers really don't know that. Unfortunately, we need warnings on wingsuits not to land them, and warnings on cypreses that they are no substitute for emergency procedures. Because history has shown that if you don't tell people over and over that the cypres is fallible, they will start to believe it's infallible... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Interesting, but isn't the purpose of these disclaimers simply an attempt to deflect ridiculous lawsuits, rather than an effort to inform? Unfortunately, I believe you're correct when you say that someone, somewhere, would attempt to land a wingsuit... Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #121 October 7, 2005 I didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #122 October 7, 2005 QuoteWhile I'm flattered you would confuse me with him, this is the cellphone designer Bill, not the rig designer Bill. Yeah, I know who you are Bill I just thought your response was a good and thoughtful one (as usual), and I was backing you up. Then I started going off a bit on the end - but that was directed at RWS, not you. I guess discussion dynamics don't work as well over the internet.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #123 October 7, 2005 QuoteI didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 I have waited. This ad was released nearly 3 years after the Skyhook was introduced. Until now, we have done very little print advertising for it. Instead, we have taken it around to boogies, and let jumpers try it for themselves. About 300 have. And yes, there has been an "epidemic" of low pulls lately...two died at Rantoul alone. The "normal" number is about 3 a year in the US. If you think the "no-Skyhook" cartoon was a little long, watch the end of the Skyhook video. The jumper took nearly 5 seconds to locate and pull his reserve AFTER breaking away. At the speed he was going, that's at least 600 feet. In this case the ad was meant to be at least a bit instructive. It can, and probably will, take you a lot longer than you think to pull your reserve after riding a bad spinner on you back. Also notice that it took him a full 4 seconds to locate and pull his breakaway handle after he started reaching for it. That's 9 seconds total AFTER the decision to breakaway was made before the reserve was pulled...and this guy had a LOT of jumps. How well are YOU going to do the first time you breakaway from a 3 "G" spinner that can scrambled you brain in just a few seconds? The Skyhook is not for when things go right. Just like an AAD, it is for times when you have already forfeited your life because of poor planning or execution of your skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #124 October 7, 2005 QuoteThe point is, you have a great product that will likely save many lives, not by replacing EP's, but by potentially beating us to them. Most of us "get" that. Another point is, he doesn't jump one himself. Quote I would never have my hand on a reserve ripcord handle, or even be looking at it, when I cutaway. Two reasons: 1. I want to be sure that both risers leave before I pull the reserve ripcord. 2. I want to be "stable" enough to safely deploy my last canopy. -Bill Booth Hmmm. Nomatter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. The ad was funny, I "got it". I would not have made this type of stink about it but now that the point is raised, I don't think it's difficult for a brand new jumper to have been misled. New gear!!... newer then the SIM he/she read. What other references do they have to the skyhook? Oh, video of a couple people cutting away at 100ft! That's terrific footage for a new jumper to watch. Think people. You may think the concern is silly... you are not learning to skydive today, when just about anyone with a bit of $$$ can get in the air. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #125 October 7, 2005 QuoteHmmm. No matter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. Safety devices like the Skyhook don't allow retarded people to jump, any more than do reserve canopies. Even the best and smartest jumpers in the world have bad days, make mistakes and sometimes even do reckless things intentionally. That doesn't make them stupid. Safety devices give good jumpers a second chance to hopefully improve both who they are and how they jump. They give thoughtless jumpers a reason to think and also improve. They give people who have been reckless in the past a reason not to be reckless in the future. Every person on this planet that is the best at something was once a miserable failure at that same thing.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 5 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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NickDG 23 #121 October 7, 2005 I didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #122 October 7, 2005 QuoteWhile I'm flattered you would confuse me with him, this is the cellphone designer Bill, not the rig designer Bill. Yeah, I know who you are Bill I just thought your response was a good and thoughtful one (as usual), and I was backing you up. Then I started going off a bit on the end - but that was directed at RWS, not you. I guess discussion dynamics don't work as well over the internet.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #123 October 7, 2005 QuoteI didn't notice the reserve ripcord thing as much as two other things in that advert. One is your reserve is still slider deployed and you can always have a pressure knot or some other kind of slider hang-up. If somehow we could guarantee you'd never have a terminal reserve deployment and you could remove the reserve slider then it would ring more true to me. The other thing is, and I don't have the advert right in front of me, but I glanced at it, is that with a sub-terminal cutaway coupled with half way decent EPs you aren't going to loose as much altitude as the advert suggests . . . If that was my advert I would have made the first one a little shorter and the second one a little longer. I love Bill Booth and applaud anything he does. But, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't say "the skyhook" is a very radical change in how things are done, and I'd sit back for awhile before I took it up. Besides, is there an epidemic of low cutaways and "went in at reserve line stretch," incidents? NickD BASE 194 I have waited. This ad was released nearly 3 years after the Skyhook was introduced. Until now, we have done very little print advertising for it. Instead, we have taken it around to boogies, and let jumpers try it for themselves. About 300 have. And yes, there has been an "epidemic" of low pulls lately...two died at Rantoul alone. The "normal" number is about 3 a year in the US. If you think the "no-Skyhook" cartoon was a little long, watch the end of the Skyhook video. The jumper took nearly 5 seconds to locate and pull his reserve AFTER breaking away. At the speed he was going, that's at least 600 feet. In this case the ad was meant to be at least a bit instructive. It can, and probably will, take you a lot longer than you think to pull your reserve after riding a bad spinner on you back. Also notice that it took him a full 4 seconds to locate and pull his breakaway handle after he started reaching for it. That's 9 seconds total AFTER the decision to breakaway was made before the reserve was pulled...and this guy had a LOT of jumps. How well are YOU going to do the first time you breakaway from a 3 "G" spinner that can scrambled you brain in just a few seconds? The Skyhook is not for when things go right. Just like an AAD, it is for times when you have already forfeited your life because of poor planning or execution of your skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #124 October 7, 2005 QuoteThe point is, you have a great product that will likely save many lives, not by replacing EP's, but by potentially beating us to them. Most of us "get" that. Another point is, he doesn't jump one himself. Quote I would never have my hand on a reserve ripcord handle, or even be looking at it, when I cutaway. Two reasons: 1. I want to be sure that both risers leave before I pull the reserve ripcord. 2. I want to be "stable" enough to safely deploy my last canopy. -Bill Booth Hmmm. Nomatter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. The ad was funny, I "got it". I would not have made this type of stink about it but now that the point is raised, I don't think it's difficult for a brand new jumper to have been misled. New gear!!... newer then the SIM he/she read. What other references do they have to the skyhook? Oh, video of a couple people cutting away at 100ft! That's terrific footage for a new jumper to watch. Think people. You may think the concern is silly... you are not learning to skydive today, when just about anyone with a bit of $$$ can get in the air. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #125 October 7, 2005 QuoteHmmm. No matter how many lives saved, I also advocate that a product such as this is designed and marketed to take a sport which is "not for everyone"... and open it's doors to the retarded. Safety devices like the Skyhook don't allow retarded people to jump, any more than do reserve canopies. Even the best and smartest jumpers in the world have bad days, make mistakes and sometimes even do reckless things intentionally. That doesn't make them stupid. Safety devices give good jumpers a second chance to hopefully improve both who they are and how they jump. They give thoughtless jumpers a reason to think and also improve. They give people who have been reckless in the past a reason not to be reckless in the future. Every person on this planet that is the best at something was once a miserable failure at that same thing.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
