Low Jump Numbers at the WFFC

[Scrumpot 1]

Nice sales pitch, Winsor! They're really paying you this year, aren't they?

Only kidding. And anyone that knows Winsor would know better too. (before the flames got too high )

Very well put out there, perspective.
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[LouDiamond 1]

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I'm trying to figure out what the point of your argument is

From the last sentence of my previous post:

my point to you was that your comparrison of the two seperate locations in relation to one another IMO is somewhat flawed.

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I think we both agree that there are potential dangers at both boogies and at both places people do stupid shit. That's pretty much a given anywhere, even Eloy. I guess we'll find out in a couple weeks how "safe" the Holiday Boogie will be this year...

I was never in contention with that nor was it what I was trying to address with you from the first sentence of my original post. As a load organizer for both events(WFFC;Eloy), and as Winsor has pointed out, I/we take a great interest in keeping everyone as safe as humanly possible. The coordination between all of the moving parts of WFFC and the energy spent by those involved would make ones head spin. Being intimately familiar with the behind the scenes planning of both events, my intial statement in reference to your statement still stands. If that is still unclear to you, refer back to the bold text in this post.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mattjw916 2]

Somewhat flawed according to _you_.

You are a winguit LO which means you exit at a different time, fly to a specific holding area, and land last generally. You will have a radically different experience with canopy traffic than a freeflier that only jumps in small groups of 2-4 people that exits nearly last on every load with a fall rate triple that of yours.

Even as crappy as the spot got towards the end of jumprun at Rantoul, where the few-and-far-between freefliers must exit, I made it back safely without any of the drama that I encountered during the last Holiday Boogie and never felt the need to land on the taxiway or any other hazard there. (DC-3 load notwithstanding).

Eloy does have more "outs", but people don't seem to use them effectively and rather pound in downwind on the grass against the pattern than get their jumpsuit dirty in the desert. Once again, that's my observation, you can disagree with it all you want.

If you want to discuss it further, introduce yourself during the boogie... I fly an obnoxiously bright orange Nitron... I'll buy you a free beer at the trailer.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[LouDiamond 1]

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You will have a radically different experience with canopy traffic than a freeflier that only jumps in small groups of 2-4 people that exits nearly last on every load with a fall rate triple that of yours

That made me laugh out loud as it shows just how little you are aware of what goes on at WFFC. Wingsuits get out first at WFFC and even though we get out first we are usually landing at the same time as those who were in the 2 trail aircraft behind ours, which subsequently puts us right in the mix with everyone from those aircraft . I won't even get into the dynamics behind the multiple jump runs and aircraft spacing issues. The type of skydiving discipline and fall rate has zero to do with what happens under canopy and during landing, which is what your intial comparrison was about. The spots and jump runs at WFFC are that way for a reason. If you really want to know the hows and whys PM me and I will explain them to you in detail.

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Eloy does have more "outs", but people don't seem to use them effectively...Once again, that's my observation, you can disagree with it all you want.

Which goes back to my previous statement that no one can control peoples propensity to do stupid things under canopy.I am not in disagreement with you on this,nor was it a topic, on whether or not people use the "outs" at one location more than another. I will say it again since you haven't grapsed what I have been trying to tell you from my first post.

You stated: One nice thing about WFFC versus for example the Eloy Holiday Boogie is that the landing area(s) are much larger.


I stated: I think that is a terrible example and a false statement. The main landing area in Eloy is approximately the same width and length as the one at WFFC with far fewer obstacles to hit on the ground while on final.


Please tell me you grasp this. If not, I will be located in the BirdMan tent at Eloy and I can draw you a picture while we drink the free beer at the end of the day.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mattjw916 2]

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That made me laugh out loud as it shows just how little you are aware of what goes on at WFFC.

Or perhaps, you fail to grasp that my perspective is simply different than yours because of different experience levels.

You don't have to tell me how the jump runs work, or sometimes don't, esp since I was on the Carvair load that had another plane dump a load nearly on top of us providing a nice view of people humming by us in freefall due to the chronic low-pulling that went on there. I did have a protracted conversation with one of Eloy's pilots regarding the patterns the pilots fly, time between loads, etc... which is one of the reasons I felt reasonably safe there.

If some moron hits a tent, a parked van, another canopy, or any other immovable object it's not because the landing area isn't sufficiently big. I jumped there nearly every day, all day during the convention and never saw any canopy collisions in the main drag between the tents... on the other hand your buddy Ash can fill you in on the guy that practically took him out on final last year in Eloy.

I'm done splitting hairs over this... you don't need to draw me a picture, if your clearance is still up-to-date, I'm sure I can provide some nice overhead imagery that you can analyze with your favorite mensuration program and calculate down to the square inch which landing area is scarier than the other.

edit: spelling...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[LouDiamond 1]

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Or perhaps, you fail to grasp that my perspective is simply different than yours because of different experience levels.

Not at all, in fact, I'm glad you mentioned it as it was one of my initial thoughts seeing how I make 1/3 of your total jumps in a 2 week period .I think it plays an overwhelming reason why you have struggled to grasp what I have been trying to explain to you.

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if your clearance is still up-to-date, I'm sure I can provide some nice overhead imagery

HAHA, now that is REALLY funny, you truely have no idea how funny that is to me. Come find me during the boogie, we definately have to drink a beer together

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[winsor 186]

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I was on the Carvair load that had another plane dump a load nearly on top of us providing a nice view of people humming by us in freefall due to the chronic low-pulling that went on there. I did have a protracted conversation with one of Eloy's pilots regarding the patterns the pilots fly, time between loads, etc... which is one of the reasons I felt reasonably safe there.

You bring up a very good point here.

The pilots of specialty aircraft may have all kinds of qualifications and no concept of how to fly jump operations.

With the likes of Mike Mullins, Fleahop, and Larry Hill's and Paul Fayard's crews around we can easily get spoiled (I sure as hell am). The regular crews that make the Convention happen are brilliant, and they are used to doing complex tasks all day long and making it look easy.

The performance of the DC-3 and Carvair crews during jump operations has made it quite clear who has the necessary skill to make it all come together smoothly.

It is my recommendation that the specialty aircraft should operate under the direct control of the pros, since they have a track record of working together smoothly and safely. Regardless of the personalities involved, in practice they cooperate marvelously and do not step on each other's toes. Specialty aircraft, on the other hand, tend to interfere with normal jump operations by virtue of the fact that they are not used to the flow of a complex jump operation.

Under the direction of the mainstay jump operations, the specialty jump operations can do less to interrupt the normal operations, and integrate with the flow that works so well.

We have a lot of people working hard to implement improvements at the Convention, so what you saw last year is not necessarily what you will encounter next time around.

We have a lot of talent available, and we are doing our best to use it to good advantage.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[kallend 1,625]

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People who show up on Day One and can't even funnel a formation properly by Day Ten are organizing their own skydives together, executing them safely and having a great time.

Yes, but can they funnel a formation properly by Day Ten?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 186]

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People who show up on Day One and can't even funnel a formation properly by Day Ten are organizing their own skydives together, executing them safely and having a great time.

Yes, but can they funnel a formation properly by Day Ten?

Indeed they can.

In addition to learning the Oppenheimer Breakoff and the Pulsating Sphincter Transition, people go home knowing the fine points of a Crack the Whip and other variants of your basic Fruit Loop.

Starting with a standard Horny Gorilla, we progress to the Saucer and Teacup. Similarly, a simple Tube can turn into a 20-way Steamroller if there is a C-130 on hand.

By golly, we put the "fun" back in "funnel!"


Blue skies,

Winsor