Any rumors on the Katana 135/150 release?

[SkydiveMO 0]

Anything out there in the rumor mill about the release of the Katana 135 and 150? Before I get the “ask the manufacturer” answer, I have done so on several occasions and was given the same “it’ll be ready when it’s ready” answer everyone else has gotten. I’ve jumped the 120 and am very impressed with the performance range but at my body weight would really like to see what a 135 or even 150 could do for me.

[billvon 2,400]

In a lot of ways I hope they don't. We have enough issues with people jumping ultra high performance canopies before they're ready as it is.

[SkydiveMO 0]

I most whole heartedly agree with your viewpoint regarding experience and canopies however you must agree that fatties like myself who have the experience to handle the canopy are often left out when manufactures shy away from the larger sizes. Next thing you know I’m jumping something smaller than I should simply because it’s the largest they make. Kind of a double edged argument I believe. The only strike against me is that there are far fewer jumpers above 200 lbs then below it.

[Remster 24]

Its one of the resons I went with the Sam 136. People who have flown both the Katanas and the Sams in similar sizes were reporting very similar flight characteristics.

Remster

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I have been bugging the shit out of them for a year and a half.They were supposed to have one at Rantoul for me to jump but nope.I,like you have jumped the 120 and loved it but at my weight I really don't need a 120.I'm jumping a 145 Alpha now and just don't want to make that big of a downsize.


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[Bigwind 0]

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In a lot of ways I hope they don't. We have enough issues with people jumping ultra high performance canopies before they're ready as it is.

what is the difference between what you call a HP canopy and a "normal" one? say a katana V a pilot, both 150 size?

would the Katane be considered high peformance and the pilot not, and why?

Is a Pilot 188 considered HP?

[billvon 2,400]

>what is the difference between what you call a HP canopy and
>a "normal" one? say a katana V a pilot, both 150 size?

First off, that definition changes all the time. When I was a student, no one was allowed within 15 feet of Ray's Monarch 190 cause it was so deadly.

But the performance level of a canopy is measured in many ways. Ultra high performance canopies often sacrifice many things - on heading opening performance, glide, stability in turbulence, ability to handle an in-brakes descent - to get good planeouts, which is the holy grail of the canopy swooper. The Katana is much closer to the "ultra high performance" end of the spectrum than the "good overall canopy" side. Which means that jumpers are sacrificing (for example) the ability to get back from a long spot for landing performance. In many cases, they'd be getting similar planeout performance out of a Pilot because they're not flying the wing very well yet anyway. I know I get better swoops out of a Pilot 117 than some other Perris jumpers get out of their (similarly sized) Crossfires.

That's not to say they shouldn't be jumping that Crossfire. But they certainly don't need to be; they're not using it fully as it is.

>Is a Pilot 188 considered HP?

Literally yes. Overall it's one of the best all-around canopies out there, though, because it _doesn't_ sacrifice on-heading performance, opening performance, glide or stability for planeout performance.

[Bigwind 0]

thanks for that, Billvon

[dharma1976 0]

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>what is the difference between what you call a HP canopy and
>a "normal" one? say a katana V a pilot, both 150 size?

First off, that definition changes all the time. When I was a student, no one was allowed within 15 feet of Ray's Monarch 190 cause it was so deadly.

But the performance level of a canopy is measured in many ways. Ultra high performance canopies often sacrifice many things - on heading opening performance, glide, stability in turbulence, ability to handle an in-brakes descent - to get good planeouts, which is the holy grail of the canopy swooper. The Katana is much closer to the "ultra high performance" end of the spectrum than the "good overall canopy" side. Which means that jumpers are sacrificing (for example) the ability to get back from a long spot for landing performance. In many cases, they'd be getting similar planeout performance out of a Pilot because they're not flying the wing very well yet anyway. I know I get better swoops out of a Pilot 117 than some other Perris jumpers get out of their (similarly sized) Crossfires.

That's not to say they shouldn't be jumping that Crossfire. But they certainly don't need to be; they're not using it fully as it is.

>Is a Pilot 188 considered HP?

Literally yes. Overall it's one of the best all-around canopies out there, though, because it _doesn't_ sacrifice on-heading performance, opening performance, glide or stability for planeout performance.

I wouldnt say that a Crossfire sacrifices the ability to get back from a long spot, quite the contrary...

as far as stability goes, great canopy, it can get a little touchy on openings, but I would say that 99% of mine have been stable and on heading (yes that one was quite a adreno-rush)

now the Katana I will agree does come out of the sky very quickly...perhaps the original poster woudl consider demoing a Crossfire2 from icarus...I have had nothign but joy in my life since I got mine by accident...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[billvon 2,400]

>I wouldnt say that a Crossfire sacrifices the ability to get back from a
>long spot, quite the contrary...

Right. IMO a Crossfire is more to the 'all around' end of the scale than the Katana is. But it's still more of a tradeoff than a Pilot is. (Not that the Pilot is the ultimate canopy; I use it because it's about the most forgiving elliptical out there, and most people don't consider non-ellipticals HP any more. Spectre and Silhouette are close to the Pilot.)

[ntacfreefly 0]

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now the Katana I will agree does come out of the sky very quickly...perhaps the original poster woudl consider demoing a Crossfire2 from icarus

If you cannot get your Katana to go just as far (if not further than a XF2 - I say that having flown both in comparable sizes) coming back from a bad spot then it's certainly not the canopies fault. Hell the KA out glides the Pilot (not a same category canopy I know) by a LONG way. Once again I say this having jumped a KA and Pilot in similar (104 and 107) sizes. Flatter glide isn't always better.

It baffles me why some people are convinced that because a canopy 'natural trim' is steeper that they think they can't get back as easily. If that's the case it's most likely the pilot and/or the technique they're using.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[billvon 2,400]

>Hell the KA out glides the Pilot (not a same category canopy I know)
>by a LONG way.

I disagree. From my experience, a Pilot 117 has a considerably better glide ratio than a Katana 120.

>It baffles me why some people are convinced that because a
>canopy 'natural trim' is steeper that they think they can't get back as
>easily.

Because it has a naturally steeper glide due to that trim angle. That doesn't mean you can't do tricks to make them glide farther. But you can do the same tricks on the Pilot and go farther still. At the end of the day a Pilot of the same loading will get you back to the DZ more often than a Katana.

[AggieDave 6]

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In a lot of ways I hope they don't. We have enough issues with people jumping ultra high performance canopies before they're ready as it is.

You know Bill, what you consider a "small" canopy isn't to a lot of people in the jumping world. I've been waiting very excitedly for the past while for the "real man" sizes of the Katana to come out. I'm hoping that the 135 will handle my wingloading better then the XF2 139 did, since I'm desperate for an inbetween canopy from my XF2 149 to a Velo 120.

Not everyone that will jump those sizes aren't ready for it! Watch your profiling and your stereotypes.

Actually, I'm a bit annoyed by your comment. You're basically saying that if someone doesn't fit in the body mold of an average skydiver that you're basically screwed in options in gear. I'm not even that big of a guy, especially compared to some others that are active jumpers and I find your comment relatively offensive.

(Atleast I've learned with my career that I can't be personally offended by someone's comments, so I guess we're ok.).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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In a lot of ways I hope they don't. We have enough issues with people jumping ultra high performance canopies before they're ready as it is.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are other alternatives for those that really NEED that level of performance at those sizes..... most who want the 135 or 150 are just "Label Hunters"......

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Hell the KA out glides the Pilot (not a same category canopy I know) by a LONG way.

err....you may want to go out and test that theory again..... I think you're wrong about that.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

And I think you need to cut Bill some slack for his opinion.

IMO there are other more viable options for bigger jumpers to consider.

Thought about a 135 FX, VX, Xaos 21 or Xaos 27?

I'd rather that canopy (135/150 Katana) never came out and you have to find another option, than to see another report of a jumper in a bodybag.

Why all this hype on the larger Katanas? Why is no one screaming for a larger Velo?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dharma1976 0]

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And I think you need to cut Bill some slack for his opinion.

IMO there are other more viable options for bigger jumpers to consider.

Thought about a 135 FX, VX, Xaos 21 or Xaos 27?

I'd rather that canopy (135/150 Katana) never came out and you have to find another option, than to see another report of a jumper in a bodybag.

Why all this hype on the larger Katanas? Why is no one screaming for a larger Velo?

and hey what about the crossfire2...its a great canopy for the transition...thats why I went to it instead of the stilletto :-P

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Canuck 0]

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Why all this hype on the larger Katanas? Why is no one screaming for a larger Velo?

Because PD never said they were releasing a 135 or 150 Velo. Same reason nobody is asking why the Spectre 79 hasn't been released...


Canuck

[Canuck 0]

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and hey what about the crossfire2...its a great canopy for the transition

Read AggieDave's whole post, and check his profile. He jumps a Crossfire2 149 already, and found that the Crossfire2 139 didn't handle the loading well (he's an ape), so he can't really go any smaller in a Crossfire, but doesn't want to make a 30 sq. ft. downsize to a Velo 120.

Canuck

[dharma1976 0]

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and hey what about the crossfire2...its a great canopy for the transition

Read AggieDave's whole post, and check his profile. He jumps a Crossfire2 149 already, and found that the Crossfire2 139 didn't handle the loading well (he's an ape), so he can't really go any smaller in a Crossfire, but doesn't want to make a 30 sq. ft. downsize to a Velo 120.

Canuck

oops ....
I stand corrected...

does icarus make larger VX's? or do they stop at 119?

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Canuck 0]

I've read on here somewhere that somebody has a VX 142 or something like that, so yes, they do make them larger.

Canuck

[AggieDave 6]

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Why all this hype on the larger Katanas? Why is no one screaming for a larger Velo?

I have been! I've been bugging PD for over a year for a Velo 135. They said they developed one and shelved it without getting a final design built since they didn't think there was a market.

As for the larger sized FXs, VXs, Xaoses (is that how you make that plurarl?), there are no demos. I'm not buying anything without a demo first, period. Sure I could go to the hassle of buying one then returning it for the supposed refund, but why bother. No demo, no deal, I don't buy blind to simply hope that I can get a refund without a hassle.

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I'd rather that canopy (135/150 Katana) never came out and you have to find another option, than to see another report of a jumper in a bodybag.

Well I wish instructors took extreme care in helping their students learn how to downsize properly so that jumpers could make more informed decisions later in their skydiving career. I wish S&TAs would take a much more active role in firmly suggesting and helping jumpers make their way in this sport. There's a lot of wishing in this sport, not much in the way of an answer that is a viable option for all parties involved. This could quickly degrade into a discussion on wingloading/canopy class BSRs, but that's not the point. The point is a company has said they're trying as hard as they can to answer jumpers needs and there are some of us out there that are excited about that possibility of the larger sizes.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>You know Bill, what you consider a "small" canopy isn't to a lot of people
>in the jumping world.

?? If they don't think the Katana 120 is small, they can always get a 107. But I don't think that's what you meant.

>You're basically saying that if someone doesn't fit in the body mold of
>an average skydiver that you're basically screwed in options in gear.

Yes, someone who weighs 300 pounds is sorta out of luck if they want a Katana. If they weigh 220, though, the 120 is always available, and from my (completely informal) survey of jumpers at my DZ that covers over 90% of the jumpers out there. If they don't want to jump at that loading, there are plenty of other canopies that would be a better choice.

Again, I have no problem with very experienced jumpers jumping a Katana. But many of the jumpers I have talked to have wanted the larger size because they are afraid of loading a Katana at 1.7 to 1, and want the larger size 'to be safe.' And there are MUCH better canopies to jump if they want to be safe, especially at 1.7 to 1. The Katana is not one of them.

[billvon 2,400]

>Well I wish instructors took extreme care in helping their students learn
> how to downsize properly so that jumpers could make more informed
>decisions later in their skydiving career. I wish S&TAs would take a much
> more active role in firmly suggesting and helping jumpers make their way
>in this sport.

Doesn't work. There were a few jumpers at Brown that we did everything we could, up to and including grounding them; they can jump anyway. There is no way to ground a jumper at all DZ's, and they just find one where you can't ground them.

[dharma1976 0]

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I've read on here somewhere that somebody has a VX 142 or something like that, so yes, they do make them larger.

Canuck

it woudl be an upsize but I think my next canopy is goingt o be a VX 134.5 :-P

actually I will be happy with my canopy for at least another 500 or so jumps for sure (really really dont want to be a stat)

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.