the worst spot i have ever had.

[skydiverjerry 0]

we have a twin otter and two pilots fly it now this weekend we had a bum spot about 5km out! the uppers were at 60knts and ground wind 7knts.

the pilot admits that he made a mistake at the same time the co pilot says that he knew were we were but was scared of saying anything.

the pilot refuses to change his sops, i now see two choices fire the pilot or introduce / force them to follow the fars.

my question is, were does it say in FAR that the twin otter can be flown with one pilot? i have another pilot availible but he will not fly with the two that we use (personality clashes)

i once read a recomendation that co pilots fly the plane while the pilot supervises done a google search but cant find it, this is probably best answered by a pilot,

any help would be gratefull.

blue skies

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[Elisha 1]

If it was that bad, I wouldn't get out. Screw the pilots - you're the one jumping.

Btw, someone here posted a funny picture of how far out their landing was...like a few miles away and on the other side of a river.

[crazydiver 0]

Quote

If it was that bad, I wouldn't get out. Screw the pilots - you're the one jumping.

This isn't the issue at hand. Thats been discussed before. He's trying to find where in the FARs it states the otter can be flown with one pilot. I'm assuming he's a DZO or something.

To Jerry, I know it can be done. I've been to tons of otter DZs, including my own, that fly with one pilot on a regular basis.

Cheers,
Travis

[YISkyDive 0]

I dont know if this helps- but at lake wales durring the record all the otters that I flew in(fun jumper loads) where all single pilot flown. No one- other than a skydiver at one point, was in the right seat.

[peckerhead 0]

If you go to the history and trivia forum you might find your "worst spot" was a good spot in comparison.

Oh, the stories I could tell.....


But who would believe them?

[skydiverjerry 0]

yep thats about it, im lookin in the fars but can not find it

if some body could help i would be gratefull

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[IanHarrop 37]

You might want to check this site out for help with this. It has pilots forum.

http://www.diverdriver.com/

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[altichick 1]

No idea if this helps (I had nothing better to do!)

Found this from here (seach 'otter' or 'A9EA')

Says the otter's minimum crew is 1 (pilot)

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[kelpdiver 2]

true in the US, but England may be different. From other conversations, I gather at least a few countries require two pilots for twin engine craft. Look to the thread a week or two back on the Pac vs Otter.

[ps5601 0]

Yeah, but in the UK FARs don't mean anything. We have to follow the rules of the CAA (Civil aviation authority) and the BPA.

Some aircraft in the UK have a minimum crew of 2 - the LET410 being an example, although the one that has the surveillance gear in it has an exemption for a crew of 1 (possibly due to the fact that there is no co-pilot seat).

I know that the Skyvan, Beech99 and G-92 can be flown with only a pilot (all twin aircraft). There hasn't be an otter in the UK for about 5 years, and I didn't jump it when it was here either.

Blue skies

Paul

[The111 1]

Again, not a specific answer, but all the Otters @ Zhills only have one pilot. Hell, every Otter I've been on, anywhere, had only one pilot...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[diverdriver 5]

Jerry,

In the USA you won't have a FAR that says "Twin Otters can be flown by one pilot". It's a matter of their certification that says they can be flown by one pilot. They are not a jet. They aren't certified (most of the time) to have a max gross takeoff weight of more than 12,500 pounds. Now, if you use them for flying in an airline setting (Part 121) then yes, you will need two pilots in a Twin Otter to be legal. But for Part 91/105 skydiving ops the answer is no, you don't need two pilots.

And reading your post above you have several issues going on there. There is a total lack of CRM going on. "FO scared to speak up to the CA". So if they were about to run out of fuel he wouldn't speak up? That's weak. But maybe the company and CA set up the environment where he truly felt he couldn't speak up. Then he should have walked away.

And as for the skydivers... ever look down before exiting? I mean regulations aside, it IS YOUR LIFE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT? Why not look down before going? You do look down for other traffic that the pilots and controllers might have missed. Right?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[altichick 1]

It's not a UK DZ the he's talking about

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[skydiverjerry 0]

Quote

Jerry,

In the USA you won't have a FAR that says "Twin Otters can be flown by one pilot". It's a matter of their certification that says they can be flown by one pilot. They are not a jet. They aren't certified (most of the time) to have a max gross takeoff weight of more than 12,500 pounds. Now, if you use them for flying in an airline setting (Part 121) then yes, you will need two pilots in a Twin Otter to be legal. But for Part 91/105 skydiving ops the answer is no, you don't need two pilots.

And reading your post above you have several issues going on there. There is a total lack of CRM going on. "FO scared to speak up to the CA". So if they were about to run out of fuel he wouldn't speak up? That's weak. But maybe the company and CA set up the environment where he truly felt he couldn't speak up. Then he should have walked away.

And as for the skydivers... ever look down before exiting? I mean regulations aside, it IS YOUR LIFE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT? Why not look down before going? You do look down for other traffic that the pilots and controllers might have missed. Right?

thanks chris
i think you naoled some of the issues on the head again thank you.

clouds and gps make for a hell of a mix and now i am left to clean up the mess again.

the work enviroment as you point out needs cleaning up and thats something that i have just made my job.

some of this my sound strange to you guys but out there we encounter a lot.

again chris theanks for the help i will get to those sights asap.


topic to serieuse for signiture


na!!!!

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[kallend 1,672]

Quote

Jerry,

In the USA you won't have a FAR that says "Twin Otters can be flown by one pilot". It's a matter of their certification that says they can be flown by one pilot. They are not a jet. They aren't certified (most of the time) to have a max gross takeoff weight of more than 12,500 pounds. Now, if you use them for flying in an airline setting (Part 121) then yes, you will need two pilots in a Twin Otter to be legal. But for Part 91/105 skydiving ops the answer is no, you don't need two pilots.

And reading your post above you have several issues going on there. There is a total lack of CRM going on. "FO scared to speak up to the CA". So if they were about to run out of fuel he wouldn't speak up? That's weak. But maybe the company and CA set up the environment where he truly felt he couldn't speak up. Then he should have walked away.

And as for the skydivers... ever look down before exiting? I mean regulations aside, it IS YOUR LIFE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT? Why not look down before going? You do look down for other traffic that the pilots and controllers might have missed. Right?

Hi Chris:

Remember Roger's spotting? Our 2002 IL POPS record 44 way we landed so far from the DZ we couldn't even see the River. I guess you weren't the pilot

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillyVance 34]

Most DZs I've been to had one pilot flying them. The only times I've seen two pilots was when one of them was somewhat inexperienced.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[riggerrob 561]

I could quote you the Canadian Air Regulations or the American Federal Aviation Regulations, but it sounds like what your pilots really need is a lesson in "Cockpit Resource Management."
If a co-pilot is too scared to speak up, then he should not be on board.
If your third pilot has personality clashes with #1 and #2, you take a long, hard look at the personalities, habits, and work ethic of #1 and #2.

I may not be the most tactful skydiver, but the last time I told a pilot that his doing red-line in the airport landing pattern scared me, he slowed down.

Scary pilots scare off customers.

[BMFin 0]

Isnt it also a matter of insurance contract ?

2 pilots -> cheaper insurance
1 pilot -> More expensive

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Isnt it also a matter of insurance contract ?

2 pilots -> cheaper insurance
1 pilot -> More expensive

I doubt it. The cost offset of paying another pilot may not cover it.

I'm just wondering where the original poster's DZ is. We are talking FARs (USA) and it seems he's in another country but I could be completely wrong.


John, nope, I wasn't flying that one.

Funny story: I was cranking loads one Saturday and two jumper landed out to the north which, as you know is a big NO-NO at SDC back a few years (landowner issues). Anyway, manifest was giving me a rash of shit over the radio for bad spotting and I said they must have pulled low and there was some exchange back and forth again about how I needed to do better.

A couple of loads later I was landing and the two jumpers were walking in from the north. Casey was one of them and he saw me taxi by. I pointed at him... gesture like I was pulling a pilot chute... and then point at the ground as to say "you pulled low". He busted out laughing and started knodding his head in full agreement.

Bad spot my ass.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[BMFin 0]

Quote

Quote

Isnt it also a matter of insurance contract ?

2 pilots -> cheaper insurance
1 pilot -> More expensive

I doubt it. The cost offset of paying another pilot may not cover it.

That might be true ofcourse..

In Finland we fly with 2 pilots. It is becouse of the cheaper insurance. (I could be wrong though)

Here the pilots wont get paid at all so its worth it ..