NicoNYC 0 #1 August 9, 2004 I was in an RW group. The cloud cover was getting progressively lower so the pilot had us exit at 8,500 feet. I was one of the guys on a 4man base and the one of the other guys on the base funnelled the exit. There were a few other guys diving after us to join the formation. Sorry I have to be kind of vague cuz I don't want to name names or give anyone up. When we finally leveled out at 6,500ft. The rest of the bunch that dived out after us were either above or below the formation. I guess no one else tried to dock because we flattened out low. Then, at 4,500 feet we broke off, right turn 180 and track for 5 seconds, yada yada yada. One of the people that was above the formation, not with the base, complained that I tracked underneath him/her and could have killed him and that I was below the formation. I'm thinking, what the heck is he/she talking about, I had the right of way cuz I was with the formation and that person wasn't. Besides, my main opened up at 2,200 feet so I was tracking for a quite a bit so what the heck is he/she talking about? Anyway, to add to it, one of the people that didn't make the formation and opened up earlier eventually was getting down to my airspace but was far in distance. After kicking and yelling out to let him/her know that I was around. I he/she saw me and I also assumed he/she would sprial down or hold in brakes at least. As I turned downwind, within a few seconds, at 1,000 feet that person was right beside me. When he/she saw me he/she finally pulled their brakes. Then, when I finally touch ground, both people yell at me saying that I tried to kill them. I tried to fight my point but it's hard to argue with hard headed people. Am I losing my senses here people? Am I in the wrong? If I'm wrong or right I know what I could do to prevent this from happening going forward. Next time I track away from the group, I can check the airspace below and then barell roll over on my back to look up. And then when in canopy flight if I see canopies above me gliding down faster or catching up to me, I can check the airspace up, down, right and left of me and then hang in brakes to give them the right of way. Let me hear your take on this people. I'm getting bad vibes about this and it ruined my weekend because I started to believe that I was wrong. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 August 9, 2004 We weren't there, its hard to say. Is any of it on video, or did one of the experienced instructors or the S&TA see it? Have you brought it up with the S&TA?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #3 August 9, 2004 I know you weren't there to see it and no I don't have it on video. Basically, here's the situation. The person that thought I wasn't in the formation also thought I was below the formation and I tracked underneath him/her. When I told that person I was in the formation, he/she didn't believe me. That person was dead sure that I was below the formation. 2nd the person that said that I almost killed him/her under canopy said that I turned and lost altitude down to him/her and that he/she had the right of way. What really happened was that I was already travelling downwind at 1,000 feet and that he/she popped directly behind me and was about 30 feet to the left of me. I saw the person under canopy at 2,000 feet about a few hundred feet above me and about a few hundred feet out in front of me. Since I'm the guy below, doesn't that give me the right of way? I know that he/she was above me because I had to turn my head up to see that person. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #4 August 9, 2004 It seems like the better question to ask would be: "If an exit funnels what is the appropriate response if you notice some one above/below you at pull time (after tracking)." As far as the canopy thing goes, I don't understand what you are describing. I don't get how someone "pops" behind and a little to the left of you at 1000 feet.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #5 August 9, 2004 This is an unfortunate situation - 2 sides that believe they are in the right. My suggestion to you would be to take your dilemma to someone at your dz (an instructor, an s&ta, etc) and confide in them. Don't tattle or rat someone out - just simply put the situation out there and get advice from someone who knows you and possibly the others involved. Come at it from the perspective of wanting to know if you made an error. Just from your post, it's hard to tell what's really what. You and the other guy each have a perspective and you both believe you're right. The difference, I hope, is that you handled the interaction with a bit more class than someone who yells and accuses people of trying to kill him. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #6 August 9, 2004 Quote at 4,500 feet we broke off, right turn 180 and track for 5 seconds, yada yada yada. One of the people that was above the formation, not with the base, complained that I tracked underneath him/her and could have killed him and that I was below the formation. I'm thinking, what the heck is he/she talking about, I had the right of way cuz I was with the formation and that person wasn't. Besides, my main opened up at 2,200 feet so I was tracking for a quite a bit so QuoteYour breakoff altitude was okay. The rule is that the low person has right of way. Being in the base or not doesn't matter. This type of confusion is a common problem when RW loads go to Sh#%. The people up high should be watching for the breakoff and making sure they are tracking away with no one underneath them. The low guy does not have eyes in the back of his head. Did you give a good wave off and check the sky before you dumped? It's more important than ever to do that on these screwed up loads. How experienced was the jumper you "almost killed"? Could be they were doing the wrong thing and didn't know it or didn't want to admit it. Don't know about the canopy thing. I couldn't quite sort out what you were saying. Maybe there is a local instructor or S&TA that can help you sort this all out. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdfreefly 1 #7 August 9, 2004 First of all, we all make mistakes. Don't let a "bad" skydive ruin your day or your weekend. Second, it sounds to me like this skydive was the result of a poor plan or a case of too many people with a low experience level on one jump. You've got 3 people, maybe more, diving to a 4 person base. The base never built. And it sounds like everyone just hung around in the same area waiting for the base to build. If you are on jumps where what you have planned is likely to not work, think about and plan for what to do when it doesn't, or break it up into two smaller groups. What is the experience level of the people on the dive that are telling you that you messed up. If they have loads more experience than you, chances are that you did indeed make a mistake, hey your human, it happens. However, when you have lots of low experience in a situation like this, it is common that people mis-diagnose the problem. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #8 August 9, 2004 It's hard to know exactly what happened from your post, but let me offer some very quick thoughts. First, on the break-off: Track in a straight line away from the formation. People above you should be able to see the direction you are going, and should be able to pick a different vector. Fly straight, fly fast, fly far. Let the folks overhead figure out their own departure plan. On the canopy issue: It really doesn't matter who has the technical right of way. Two canopies were trying to occupy the same airspace and landing point, and we all know that can't work. Both pilots should be willing to figure out a solution and yield. Side by side landings aren't a terrible thing, and it's rare that a landing area is too congested for a small RW group. If you find somebody to close to your right side, slide a bit to your left and smile! Develop creative solutions in flight. You will find a few graphics that show how to yield in a feature I wrote on The Ranch web site at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article12.htm Blue Skies,Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #9 August 9, 2004 No one is right if they are dead. Any plan you may have had went out the door with the change of exit altitude and probably had something to do with the base funneling. If this is a group you jump with normally, sit down and discuss what happened and develop plan "B" if this happens or that happens. Sort all this out on the ground not at break off.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #10 August 9, 2004 QuoteAs far as the canopy thing goes, I don't understand what you are describing. I don't get how someone "pops" behind and a little to the left of you at 1000 feet.Excuse me, I had to be vague cuz I just wanted to make it short. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the canopy above me was way above me and in front of me. We were both holding in the same direction but Then, I did notice the canopy was behind me but still way above me. Then, when I turned to my d/w leg at about 1,100 feet there was no one in front of me or to the side of me. Then at about 1000-900 feet, there the canopy was behind me and to the left of me, about 20 feet higher than me. As soon as the person saw me, he/she went in full brakes. There was quite a shock like, "whoa, where did you come from?" Luckily, I like to look around during my pattern legs, I don't get fixated on a target. I would have performed some kind of evasive manuever if he/she didn't go in full brakes. Anyway, the point is, I honestly don't think the person saw me at all. Just before that jump this person flew under our formation and I caught his/her burble and I asked that person, why the heck he/she did that and that person didn't notice that we were above him/her. In my opinion that person has poor skills in keeping alert to his/her surroundings. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #11 August 9, 2004 QuoteThe difference, I hope, is that you handled the interaction with a bit more class than someone who yells and accuses people of trying to kill him.I had to say my peace and that person wanted to beat a dead horse so I just shut my mouth and walked away. No sense in arguing with someone that won't even listen to what you have to say. I just wanted an unbiased opinion of what outsiders have to say. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #12 August 10, 2004 QuoteThe people up high should be watching for the breakoff and making sure they are tracking away with no one underneath them. The low guy does not have eyes in the back of his head.My sentiments exactly. Which is the point I tried to emphasize. However, this person kept insisting I wasn't with the formation, I was below it. I even mentioned to speak to the other people I was in the formation with but this person called me a liar and didn't want to clear that up. I even told this person let's look at my pro track and you'll see that my main opened up a little bit above 2,000. This person was really upset because I could have opened up underneath him. His/her claim was that he/she waited for me to deploy first. If this was the case then he/she would have really been pissed off at me cuz that would have meant that he/she would have dumped after me and would have been pissed off that he/she had to dump lower than 2 grand. It's so f*ckin' confusing, I didn't want to get into it so I just kept quiet about it. QuoteHow experienced was the jumper you "almost killed"? Could be they were doing the wrong thing and didn't know it or didn't want to admit it.The jumper I almost killed when I was tracking away has twice the number of jumps than I have. He/she kept pointing out that I wasn't with the formation. The person under the canopy has half the number of jumps that I have. QuoteDon't know about the canopy thing. I couldn't quite sort out what you were saying. Maybe there is a local instructor or S&TA that can help you sort this all out. Good luck.Basically, the person under the canopy has a higher wing loading and smaller canopy than I have. I fly a 210 and I'm loading it at 0:9, that person is loading at 1:1. Therefore, his/her descent rate is a tad bit faster than mine. I'm a floater, I can float a long time. Therefore, eventhough I was below him/her, he/she eventually caught up to me. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #13 August 10, 2004 QuoteFirst of all, we all make mistakes. Don't let a "bad" skydive ruin your day or your weekend.I agree and thank you but basically this person said that I was dangerous and pretty much broadcasted it. Therefore, I may be jumping alone because of that. This person has been more of a regular at the DZ than I am. QuoteWhat is the experience level of the people on the dive that are telling you that you messed up. If they have loads more experience than you, chances are that you did indeed make a mistake, hey your human, it happens.It varied we had one person with 1,000, another with 700, another with 900 and another with 400, the rest were lower than mine. The others that were in the formation with me told me to ignore that person and not to worry about it. He also told me when tracking away from the group to not to try to get out of there in a hurry. Meanwhile, the person that I supposedly tracked underneath told me that at 6,500 feet if you're not in the formation to stay away and keep watch. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #14 August 10, 2004 QuoteFirst, on the break-off: Track in a straight line away from the formation. People above you should be able to see the direction you are going, and should be able to pick a different vector. Fly straight, fly fast, fly far. Let the folks overhead figure out their own departure plan.Which is exactly what I do. I track very straight. However, I tend to sink a tad bit faster while tracking. Which is why from 4,500ft break off, my main opens at about 2000 feet. I track straight, my arms are out to my side, like hugging a huge beach ball and my legs are straight and knees are locked and I'm not arched. QuoteSide by side landings aren't a terrible thing, and it's rare that a landing area is too congested for a small RW group. If you find somebody to close to your right side, slide a bit to your left and smile!You're right. However, for now at my experience level, it's a little bit over my comfort zone. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #15 August 10, 2004 The jumper I almost killed when I was tracking away has twice the number of jumps than I have. He/she kept pointing out that I wasn't with the formation. The person under the canopy has half the number of jumps that I have. QuoteSometimes 360 jumps isn't as experienced as it may sound to you right now. That's a period when some people do some of their dumbest stuff. Usually the people who yell about this kind of stuff are a little unsure of themselves to start with. That might be this guy's problem. My wife had a jumper dump right under her once on a 10 way that didn't work, no track, no wave, just nylon. She thinks she kicked the canopy as it went by. When she got down, she went and had a private, quiet talk with that person. I thought it was a good way to deal with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #16 August 10, 2004 QuoteSometimes 360 jumps isn't as experienced as it may sound to you right now. That's a period when some people do some of their dumbest stuff. Usually the people who yell about this kind of stuff are a little unsure of themselves to start with.What bothers me is that this person emphasized the point, if you're not within the group by 6,500 feet, get the hell away from them. I can take criticism. I've made plenty of mistakes in this sport and I'm not afraid to admit it. What I don't like is when people think their shit doesn't stink and that they're a critic for everyone else but when it comes to them, they're perfect. This person just doesn't wish to listen to reason. I feel bad that this person doesn't want me jumping with them any longer. I learned a lot from that person. I'm kind of happy in a way too because this person just has a nasty and bitter attitude about everything and anything. Maybe I should stop being so fuckin' nice too. I should stand up for what I believe in. The fuckin' values I grew up with were to respect your elders and respect those with more experience than you. That's why I keep my fuckin' mouth shut. Then, again we don't live in a fuckin' perfect world so let me just shut the fuck up. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 August 10, 2004 His/her claim was that he/she waited for me to deploy first. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get it. ... sounds like he wasted time and altitude and tried to blame you. If he was above you - and the highest person - the simplest way for him to create distance would be for him to deploy early (as soon as he was clear). Also, as high man, he is responsible for staying off your back. Another point that I do not grasp is the notion that "if you are not in the formation by 6,500' ..." Serious relative workers continue trying to dock until the planned break off altitude. If they go way low or way high, they just hang out BESIDE THE FORMATION until planned break off altitude, then track like banshees. Normally the low man has the right of way. It takes two people to collide, but only one person to avoid a collision, sounds like you were the person who avoided the canopy collision. In conclusion, it sounds like no one was perfect on this skydive, but you took the high road by walking away from arguments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #18 August 10, 2004 When more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. It's already been said, but it sounds like you had too many inexperienced people in that group, which is why things went bad in the first place. You are right about the freefall - low person has the right-of-way. If someone is above you in freefall, it's their responsibility to get out of your way. But you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. On the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #19 August 10, 2004 QuoteBut you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. QuoteOn the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead. I hear ya. Back to the basics. Basically, what it boils down to is that you're responsible for yourself. Don't rely on others to keep you safe and be more alert all around and be more defensive under canopy. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #20 August 11, 2004 Not the same situation at all, but nevertheless a learning experience that might be helpful: After an uneventful solo jump and freefall, did a quick barrel roll to take a peek prior to my planned and announced deployment altitude, and saw someone about 100 feet above me. This person was the solo after me, and was looking straight down at me, almost like they were trying to follow me down. I looked at my altimeter, and since I planned on pulling at about 3K, I wasn't too worried. Just tracked a bit, looked up again, then did not see 'em, pulled hackey. I looked up during deployment and I can see this person a couple of hundred feet, back in my field of view above, while my canopy is deploying! Thought I was going to feel a mass of flesh coming down through my deployed canopy - very spooky. The learning experience here is that even though you might have the right of way in terms of being lower, you simply cannot trust people not to kill you. In this case, the person clearly saw me (found that out later), and even though they were foreign and spoke little to no english, you would think they knew that following someone down past 3K who was waiving off is asking for trouble. Since that time, if I track off of a formation, I do a couple of quick barrel rolls while tracking. I've got these down very fast, but the head trails so that you can scan the sky. This gives me the look in the sky above me to see if there is anyone above - Rules are great, but I'm determined to not let anyone kill me if I can help it. I'd advise you do the same. The bottom line is not that you got bitched out - even if it was unreasonable - there are folks in every walk of life that want to shift blame if that is the case. Others have said it on here - in the end - it doesn't matter who was "right" if you don't make it back to the DZ alive. I think the more important lesson here is that YOU should do what you think you need to do to avoid such situations - check, then check again. MAJOR swivel head under canopy, up down, 360 degrees everywhere, and keep it going - no target fixation. If the area is clear around you, make a slight turn so that you can see the airspace that was previously obscured above you by your canopy. Make sure you have a cushion of clearance from other folks. I've seen someone come right towards me at about 200-300 feet while I was 90 degrees to landing approach (where final was to my left), and had to quickly get right. I did not see them move, and was convinced they never even saw me (under a big-assed, bright, slow canopy too!) as I was so close I could see them looking hard towards the right (towards the landing "X"). This was a very experienced jumper - but it did not mean squat in this instance. Remember, a lot of these canopy collision deaths seem to take place a pitiful <100 feet off the ground, but still high enough to kill. It's not over until you are on the ground, AND out of the landing area. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #21 August 11, 2004 You didn't say how big the group was. If you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center. For a small group that leaves plenty of room for everyone, including the guy up high with the grandstand view. If you and your buddies aren't getting enough separation during the track off, practice tracking like your life depends on it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Merkur 1 #22 August 11, 2004 QuoteWhen more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. I think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #23 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others. Very nicely put. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #24 August 12, 2004 QuoteYou didn't say how big the group was.I meant to be vague about that. I didn't want give out an exact number because then people would figure out who I'm talking about. Someone from my DZ already PM'd me asking who the nasty person was. QuoteIf you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center.Like I had mentioned before, we broke off at 4,500 feet and my main opened at about 2,200 feet according to my pro-track. Besides I always count 6 or 7 mississippis before I wave off and dump. And I track very straight with my arms out to the side, like hugging a beachball, no arch, legs straight out and knees locked. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #25 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.Does such a person exist? j/k. There are many jumpers at my DZ with that frame of mind. However, they're mostly free flyers. I noticed, not all belly flyers but a majority of them are all about completing formations and who screwed up. I personally don't care because I'm honored for anyone to ask me to join the load. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? 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jdfreefly 1 #7 August 9, 2004 First of all, we all make mistakes. Don't let a "bad" skydive ruin your day or your weekend. Second, it sounds to me like this skydive was the result of a poor plan or a case of too many people with a low experience level on one jump. You've got 3 people, maybe more, diving to a 4 person base. The base never built. And it sounds like everyone just hung around in the same area waiting for the base to build. If you are on jumps where what you have planned is likely to not work, think about and plan for what to do when it doesn't, or break it up into two smaller groups. What is the experience level of the people on the dive that are telling you that you messed up. If they have loads more experience than you, chances are that you did indeed make a mistake, hey your human, it happens. However, when you have lots of low experience in a situation like this, it is common that people mis-diagnose the problem. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #8 August 9, 2004 It's hard to know exactly what happened from your post, but let me offer some very quick thoughts. First, on the break-off: Track in a straight line away from the formation. People above you should be able to see the direction you are going, and should be able to pick a different vector. Fly straight, fly fast, fly far. Let the folks overhead figure out their own departure plan. On the canopy issue: It really doesn't matter who has the technical right of way. Two canopies were trying to occupy the same airspace and landing point, and we all know that can't work. Both pilots should be willing to figure out a solution and yield. Side by side landings aren't a terrible thing, and it's rare that a landing area is too congested for a small RW group. If you find somebody to close to your right side, slide a bit to your left and smile! Develop creative solutions in flight. You will find a few graphics that show how to yield in a feature I wrote on The Ranch web site at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article12.htm Blue Skies,Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 August 9, 2004 No one is right if they are dead. Any plan you may have had went out the door with the change of exit altitude and probably had something to do with the base funneling. If this is a group you jump with normally, sit down and discuss what happened and develop plan "B" if this happens or that happens. Sort all this out on the ground not at break off.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #10 August 9, 2004 QuoteAs far as the canopy thing goes, I don't understand what you are describing. I don't get how someone "pops" behind and a little to the left of you at 1000 feet.Excuse me, I had to be vague cuz I just wanted to make it short. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the canopy above me was way above me and in front of me. We were both holding in the same direction but Then, I did notice the canopy was behind me but still way above me. Then, when I turned to my d/w leg at about 1,100 feet there was no one in front of me or to the side of me. Then at about 1000-900 feet, there the canopy was behind me and to the left of me, about 20 feet higher than me. As soon as the person saw me, he/she went in full brakes. There was quite a shock like, "whoa, where did you come from?" Luckily, I like to look around during my pattern legs, I don't get fixated on a target. I would have performed some kind of evasive manuever if he/she didn't go in full brakes. Anyway, the point is, I honestly don't think the person saw me at all. Just before that jump this person flew under our formation and I caught his/her burble and I asked that person, why the heck he/she did that and that person didn't notice that we were above him/her. In my opinion that person has poor skills in keeping alert to his/her surroundings. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #11 August 9, 2004 QuoteThe difference, I hope, is that you handled the interaction with a bit more class than someone who yells and accuses people of trying to kill him.I had to say my peace and that person wanted to beat a dead horse so I just shut my mouth and walked away. No sense in arguing with someone that won't even listen to what you have to say. I just wanted an unbiased opinion of what outsiders have to say. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #12 August 10, 2004 QuoteThe people up high should be watching for the breakoff and making sure they are tracking away with no one underneath them. The low guy does not have eyes in the back of his head.My sentiments exactly. Which is the point I tried to emphasize. However, this person kept insisting I wasn't with the formation, I was below it. I even mentioned to speak to the other people I was in the formation with but this person called me a liar and didn't want to clear that up. I even told this person let's look at my pro track and you'll see that my main opened up a little bit above 2,000. This person was really upset because I could have opened up underneath him. His/her claim was that he/she waited for me to deploy first. If this was the case then he/she would have really been pissed off at me cuz that would have meant that he/she would have dumped after me and would have been pissed off that he/she had to dump lower than 2 grand. It's so f*ckin' confusing, I didn't want to get into it so I just kept quiet about it. QuoteHow experienced was the jumper you "almost killed"? Could be they were doing the wrong thing and didn't know it or didn't want to admit it.The jumper I almost killed when I was tracking away has twice the number of jumps than I have. He/she kept pointing out that I wasn't with the formation. The person under the canopy has half the number of jumps that I have. QuoteDon't know about the canopy thing. I couldn't quite sort out what you were saying. Maybe there is a local instructor or S&TA that can help you sort this all out. Good luck.Basically, the person under the canopy has a higher wing loading and smaller canopy than I have. I fly a 210 and I'm loading it at 0:9, that person is loading at 1:1. Therefore, his/her descent rate is a tad bit faster than mine. I'm a floater, I can float a long time. Therefore, eventhough I was below him/her, he/she eventually caught up to me. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #13 August 10, 2004 QuoteFirst of all, we all make mistakes. Don't let a "bad" skydive ruin your day or your weekend.I agree and thank you but basically this person said that I was dangerous and pretty much broadcasted it. Therefore, I may be jumping alone because of that. This person has been more of a regular at the DZ than I am. QuoteWhat is the experience level of the people on the dive that are telling you that you messed up. If they have loads more experience than you, chances are that you did indeed make a mistake, hey your human, it happens.It varied we had one person with 1,000, another with 700, another with 900 and another with 400, the rest were lower than mine. The others that were in the formation with me told me to ignore that person and not to worry about it. He also told me when tracking away from the group to not to try to get out of there in a hurry. Meanwhile, the person that I supposedly tracked underneath told me that at 6,500 feet if you're not in the formation to stay away and keep watch. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #14 August 10, 2004 QuoteFirst, on the break-off: Track in a straight line away from the formation. People above you should be able to see the direction you are going, and should be able to pick a different vector. Fly straight, fly fast, fly far. Let the folks overhead figure out their own departure plan.Which is exactly what I do. I track very straight. However, I tend to sink a tad bit faster while tracking. Which is why from 4,500ft break off, my main opens at about 2000 feet. I track straight, my arms are out to my side, like hugging a huge beach ball and my legs are straight and knees are locked and I'm not arched. QuoteSide by side landings aren't a terrible thing, and it's rare that a landing area is too congested for a small RW group. If you find somebody to close to your right side, slide a bit to your left and smile!You're right. However, for now at my experience level, it's a little bit over my comfort zone. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #15 August 10, 2004 The jumper I almost killed when I was tracking away has twice the number of jumps than I have. He/she kept pointing out that I wasn't with the formation. The person under the canopy has half the number of jumps that I have. QuoteSometimes 360 jumps isn't as experienced as it may sound to you right now. That's a period when some people do some of their dumbest stuff. Usually the people who yell about this kind of stuff are a little unsure of themselves to start with. That might be this guy's problem. My wife had a jumper dump right under her once on a 10 way that didn't work, no track, no wave, just nylon. She thinks she kicked the canopy as it went by. When she got down, she went and had a private, quiet talk with that person. I thought it was a good way to deal with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #16 August 10, 2004 QuoteSometimes 360 jumps isn't as experienced as it may sound to you right now. That's a period when some people do some of their dumbest stuff. Usually the people who yell about this kind of stuff are a little unsure of themselves to start with.What bothers me is that this person emphasized the point, if you're not within the group by 6,500 feet, get the hell away from them. I can take criticism. I've made plenty of mistakes in this sport and I'm not afraid to admit it. What I don't like is when people think their shit doesn't stink and that they're a critic for everyone else but when it comes to them, they're perfect. This person just doesn't wish to listen to reason. I feel bad that this person doesn't want me jumping with them any longer. I learned a lot from that person. I'm kind of happy in a way too because this person just has a nasty and bitter attitude about everything and anything. Maybe I should stop being so fuckin' nice too. I should stand up for what I believe in. The fuckin' values I grew up with were to respect your elders and respect those with more experience than you. That's why I keep my fuckin' mouth shut. Then, again we don't live in a fuckin' perfect world so let me just shut the fuck up. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 August 10, 2004 His/her claim was that he/she waited for me to deploy first. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get it. ... sounds like he wasted time and altitude and tried to blame you. If he was above you - and the highest person - the simplest way for him to create distance would be for him to deploy early (as soon as he was clear). Also, as high man, he is responsible for staying off your back. Another point that I do not grasp is the notion that "if you are not in the formation by 6,500' ..." Serious relative workers continue trying to dock until the planned break off altitude. If they go way low or way high, they just hang out BESIDE THE FORMATION until planned break off altitude, then track like banshees. Normally the low man has the right of way. It takes two people to collide, but only one person to avoid a collision, sounds like you were the person who avoided the canopy collision. In conclusion, it sounds like no one was perfect on this skydive, but you took the high road by walking away from arguments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #18 August 10, 2004 When more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. It's already been said, but it sounds like you had too many inexperienced people in that group, which is why things went bad in the first place. You are right about the freefall - low person has the right-of-way. If someone is above you in freefall, it's their responsibility to get out of your way. But you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. On the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #19 August 10, 2004 QuoteBut you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. QuoteOn the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead. I hear ya. Back to the basics. Basically, what it boils down to is that you're responsible for yourself. Don't rely on others to keep you safe and be more alert all around and be more defensive under canopy. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #20 August 11, 2004 Not the same situation at all, but nevertheless a learning experience that might be helpful: After an uneventful solo jump and freefall, did a quick barrel roll to take a peek prior to my planned and announced deployment altitude, and saw someone about 100 feet above me. This person was the solo after me, and was looking straight down at me, almost like they were trying to follow me down. I looked at my altimeter, and since I planned on pulling at about 3K, I wasn't too worried. Just tracked a bit, looked up again, then did not see 'em, pulled hackey. I looked up during deployment and I can see this person a couple of hundred feet, back in my field of view above, while my canopy is deploying! Thought I was going to feel a mass of flesh coming down through my deployed canopy - very spooky. The learning experience here is that even though you might have the right of way in terms of being lower, you simply cannot trust people not to kill you. In this case, the person clearly saw me (found that out later), and even though they were foreign and spoke little to no english, you would think they knew that following someone down past 3K who was waiving off is asking for trouble. Since that time, if I track off of a formation, I do a couple of quick barrel rolls while tracking. I've got these down very fast, but the head trails so that you can scan the sky. This gives me the look in the sky above me to see if there is anyone above - Rules are great, but I'm determined to not let anyone kill me if I can help it. I'd advise you do the same. The bottom line is not that you got bitched out - even if it was unreasonable - there are folks in every walk of life that want to shift blame if that is the case. Others have said it on here - in the end - it doesn't matter who was "right" if you don't make it back to the DZ alive. I think the more important lesson here is that YOU should do what you think you need to do to avoid such situations - check, then check again. MAJOR swivel head under canopy, up down, 360 degrees everywhere, and keep it going - no target fixation. If the area is clear around you, make a slight turn so that you can see the airspace that was previously obscured above you by your canopy. Make sure you have a cushion of clearance from other folks. I've seen someone come right towards me at about 200-300 feet while I was 90 degrees to landing approach (where final was to my left), and had to quickly get right. I did not see them move, and was convinced they never even saw me (under a big-assed, bright, slow canopy too!) as I was so close I could see them looking hard towards the right (towards the landing "X"). This was a very experienced jumper - but it did not mean squat in this instance. Remember, a lot of these canopy collision deaths seem to take place a pitiful <100 feet off the ground, but still high enough to kill. It's not over until you are on the ground, AND out of the landing area. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #21 August 11, 2004 You didn't say how big the group was. If you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center. For a small group that leaves plenty of room for everyone, including the guy up high with the grandstand view. If you and your buddies aren't getting enough separation during the track off, practice tracking like your life depends on it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Merkur 1 #22 August 11, 2004 QuoteWhen more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. I think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #23 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others. Very nicely put. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #24 August 12, 2004 QuoteYou didn't say how big the group was.I meant to be vague about that. I didn't want give out an exact number because then people would figure out who I'm talking about. Someone from my DZ already PM'd me asking who the nasty person was. QuoteIf you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center.Like I had mentioned before, we broke off at 4,500 feet and my main opened at about 2,200 feet according to my pro-track. Besides I always count 6 or 7 mississippis before I wave off and dump. And I track very straight with my arms out to the side, like hugging a beachball, no arch, legs straight out and knees locked. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NicoNYC 0 #25 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.Does such a person exist? j/k. There are many jumpers at my DZ with that frame of mind. However, they're mostly free flyers. I noticed, not all belly flyers but a majority of them are all about completing formations and who screwed up. I personally don't care because I'm honored for anyone to ask me to join the load. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? 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NicoNYC 0 #16 August 10, 2004 QuoteSometimes 360 jumps isn't as experienced as it may sound to you right now. That's a period when some people do some of their dumbest stuff. Usually the people who yell about this kind of stuff are a little unsure of themselves to start with.What bothers me is that this person emphasized the point, if you're not within the group by 6,500 feet, get the hell away from them. I can take criticism. I've made plenty of mistakes in this sport and I'm not afraid to admit it. What I don't like is when people think their shit doesn't stink and that they're a critic for everyone else but when it comes to them, they're perfect. This person just doesn't wish to listen to reason. I feel bad that this person doesn't want me jumping with them any longer. I learned a lot from that person. I'm kind of happy in a way too because this person just has a nasty and bitter attitude about everything and anything. Maybe I should stop being so fuckin' nice too. I should stand up for what I believe in. The fuckin' values I grew up with were to respect your elders and respect those with more experience than you. That's why I keep my fuckin' mouth shut. Then, again we don't live in a fuckin' perfect world so let me just shut the fuck up. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 August 10, 2004 His/her claim was that he/she waited for me to deploy first. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get it. ... sounds like he wasted time and altitude and tried to blame you. If he was above you - and the highest person - the simplest way for him to create distance would be for him to deploy early (as soon as he was clear). Also, as high man, he is responsible for staying off your back. Another point that I do not grasp is the notion that "if you are not in the formation by 6,500' ..." Serious relative workers continue trying to dock until the planned break off altitude. If they go way low or way high, they just hang out BESIDE THE FORMATION until planned break off altitude, then track like banshees. Normally the low man has the right of way. It takes two people to collide, but only one person to avoid a collision, sounds like you were the person who avoided the canopy collision. In conclusion, it sounds like no one was perfect on this skydive, but you took the high road by walking away from arguments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #18 August 10, 2004 When more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. It's already been said, but it sounds like you had too many inexperienced people in that group, which is why things went bad in the first place. You are right about the freefall - low person has the right-of-way. If someone is above you in freefall, it's their responsibility to get out of your way. But you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. On the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #19 August 10, 2004 QuoteBut you also need to look up (or barrel roll) before opening to make sure you have clear airspace. Just because you have the right away, it's won't make you feel better while you're laying in a hospital bed. QuoteOn the canopy part - don't waste time kicking and yelling because you think someone is in your way. I've had people do that to me before, and it's STUPID. Just get yourself out of the way. You may have every right to that space, but it won't matter if you are both dead. I hear ya. Back to the basics. Basically, what it boils down to is that you're responsible for yourself. Don't rely on others to keep you safe and be more alert all around and be more defensive under canopy. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuvToFly 0 #20 August 11, 2004 Not the same situation at all, but nevertheless a learning experience that might be helpful: After an uneventful solo jump and freefall, did a quick barrel roll to take a peek prior to my planned and announced deployment altitude, and saw someone about 100 feet above me. This person was the solo after me, and was looking straight down at me, almost like they were trying to follow me down. I looked at my altimeter, and since I planned on pulling at about 3K, I wasn't too worried. Just tracked a bit, looked up again, then did not see 'em, pulled hackey. I looked up during deployment and I can see this person a couple of hundred feet, back in my field of view above, while my canopy is deploying! Thought I was going to feel a mass of flesh coming down through my deployed canopy - very spooky. The learning experience here is that even though you might have the right of way in terms of being lower, you simply cannot trust people not to kill you. In this case, the person clearly saw me (found that out later), and even though they were foreign and spoke little to no english, you would think they knew that following someone down past 3K who was waiving off is asking for trouble. Since that time, if I track off of a formation, I do a couple of quick barrel rolls while tracking. I've got these down very fast, but the head trails so that you can scan the sky. This gives me the look in the sky above me to see if there is anyone above - Rules are great, but I'm determined to not let anyone kill me if I can help it. I'd advise you do the same. The bottom line is not that you got bitched out - even if it was unreasonable - there are folks in every walk of life that want to shift blame if that is the case. Others have said it on here - in the end - it doesn't matter who was "right" if you don't make it back to the DZ alive. I think the more important lesson here is that YOU should do what you think you need to do to avoid such situations - check, then check again. MAJOR swivel head under canopy, up down, 360 degrees everywhere, and keep it going - no target fixation. If the area is clear around you, make a slight turn so that you can see the airspace that was previously obscured above you by your canopy. Make sure you have a cushion of clearance from other folks. I've seen someone come right towards me at about 200-300 feet while I was 90 degrees to landing approach (where final was to my left), and had to quickly get right. I did not see them move, and was convinced they never even saw me (under a big-assed, bright, slow canopy too!) as I was so close I could see them looking hard towards the right (towards the landing "X"). This was a very experienced jumper - but it did not mean squat in this instance. Remember, a lot of these canopy collision deaths seem to take place a pitiful <100 feet off the ground, but still high enough to kill. It's not over until you are on the ground, AND out of the landing area. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #21 August 11, 2004 You didn't say how big the group was. If you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center. For a small group that leaves plenty of room for everyone, including the guy up high with the grandstand view. If you and your buddies aren't getting enough separation during the track off, practice tracking like your life depends on it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merkur 1 #22 August 11, 2004 QuoteWhen more experienced skydivers jump with less experienced skydivers, my observation is that it's far more common for the more experienced skydivers to yell and scream at the less experienced ones than it is for the more experienced skydivers to apologize and admit they are wrong. I think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuvToFly 0 #23 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others. Very nicely put. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #24 August 12, 2004 QuoteYou didn't say how big the group was.I meant to be vague about that. I didn't want give out an exact number because then people would figure out who I'm talking about. Someone from my DZ already PM'd me asking who the nasty person was. QuoteIf you broke off at 4,500 and tracked to, say, 3,000 you should be able to go AT LEAST 700' from the center.Like I had mentioned before, we broke off at 4,500 feet and my main opened at about 2,200 feet according to my pro-track. Besides I always count 6 or 7 mississippis before I wave off and dump. And I track very straight with my arms out to the side, like hugging a beachball, no arch, legs straight out and knees locked. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #25 August 12, 2004 QuoteI think this needs a little bit of clarification: Often people with a high number of jumps claim to be experienced and they are the people who, in the need to underline there "experience", yell at others. A real experienced skydiver in my opinion would: #1 take the people who he/she wants to talk to aside (see also JohnMitchells post) #2 talk about what he/she thinks went wrong #3 listens to the other ones response and how he/she saw the situation #4 tries to find/suggest a solution, so that the situation in discussion will not happen again #5 isn't ashamed to admit mistakes At least this is what I call an experienced skydiver. Unfortunately you find/hear more of the self-proclaimed experienced guys than of the others.Does such a person exist? j/k. There are many jumpers at my DZ with that frame of mind. However, they're mostly free flyers. I noticed, not all belly flyers but a majority of them are all about completing formations and who screwed up. I personally don't care because I'm honored for anyone to ask me to join the load. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
