Andy9o8 0 #126 November 5, 2006 QuoteThink I've pretty much decided on Aff. Best of luck to you! There will now be another 125 posts in this thread devoted to whether your decision was good or bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #127 November 5, 2006 lol Think most of the guys and gals on here realise it's down to what suits the individual, but am always keen on hearing their opinionsFear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #128 November 5, 2006 QuoteAFF- safer quicker, but more expensive. More fun- freefall!!!! Fuck SL. takes years How would you know, sonny? You haven't been around long enough to know what your talking about. There are benifits and drawbacks to both methods. Done properly, both methods will poop out a student at the other end with the same skills."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #129 November 6, 2006 How would you know, sonny? You haven't been around long enough to know what your talking about. There are benifits and drawbacks to both methods. Done properly, both methods will poop out a student at the other end with the same skills. ------------------------------------------------------- And chances are the student will be able to pack, and have spent many an hour on the ground preping with JM's through the S/L meathod. I think conventional AFF has about 7-8 jumps, and S/L has 12-15 jumps to reach the same position or level for the student. Thats twice the canopy flight, twice the ammount of exits, and is less money per jump. Granted that by the time you complete 15 S/L jumps ($) you have spent probably the same or more for just 7 AFF's ($). Students can not completely understand the differences between the two meathods, so this question is going to arise all the time. S/L from a C-182 DZ are good for training. AFF from a Twin Otter DZ are good for training._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #130 November 6, 2006 S/L works as long as everything goes according to the plan , However if a student goes into a flat spin after a 20, or 30 sec delay "they" are on their own where as if they went AFF there is someone else there to help them . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katherine 0 #131 November 6, 2006 Quote Think I've pretty much decided on Aff. If I feel my canopy skills are lacking on completion, I can always invest in a few s/l jumps also. It's all good experience! reply] You won't need to do sl jumps to improve your canopy skills after qualification, you can just do hop and pops. sl is compleatly different, you wouldn't do sl after aff.Leeds University Skydiving Club www.skydiveleeds.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #132 November 6, 2006 QuoteS/L works as long as everything goes according to the plan , However if a student goes into a flat spin after a 20, or 30 sec delay "they" are on their own where as if they went AFF there is someone else there to help them . Students on S/L progression don't go right to 20 or 30 second delays. They do 5 S/L's, followed by 2 or 3 h&p's, followed by 2 or 3 delays each at 5, 10, 15, 20 & 30 seconds. They don't get cleared to move up to the longer delays until they've shown consistent stability at the level they're at. If they're unstable at any level & can't restabilize, they're taught to pull (and then they have to repeat the level). My real point being: AFF is a fine method; but those who know nothing else seem to presume and perpetuate a growing myth that a student needs his hand held every moment of the way in freefall by an instructor or somehow it's "more dangerous". 'Tain't so. I'll say it again: IMHO, the best method for teaching most student is a hybrid program that combines the best of all methods. Here's an example of one such program: http://www.nepaskydiving.com/htm/skydivinglessons.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyflygirl1 0 #133 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuote reply] You won't need to do sl jumps to improve your canopy skills after qualification, you can just do hop and pops. sl is compleatly different, you wouldn't do sl after aff. Ahhh, ok thanks, see all advice helpsWould anyone reccomend a canopy course to follow Aff?Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #134 November 7, 2006 QuoteWould anyone reccomend a canopy course to follow Aff? Now you're just trying to start a fight I recommend the "UK AFF, no old people who've done static line EVER" course, available only in Britain on special "static line is poo (S.L.I.P)" branded dropzones. BPA magazine has a special voucher that entitles you to 'arrogant swagger' tuition and a free "15 jumps and I know EVERYTHING" t-shirt. Part of the pass requirement involves being rude to high jump number old skydivers and throwing rocks at them. I failed packing, and one or two times somehow ended up with a duvet on my back, but my aim improved no end. Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sparkie 0 #135 November 8, 2006 QuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #136 November 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case And after how many SL jumps are you able to freefall in Holland? Where I am it's 8, but I believe in some countries it's 5 so you can ff from jump 6. You are aware that static line progression is not a static line on every single jump, but just describes the progression where you start on SL? And where I am it is 25 parachute descents for an A, so SL jumps count (although 75 freefalls is required for a B). given what you said above, btw, I have to ask why you have 40 jumps and are still on student status...? I wouldn't normally ask as I know some people take longer than others, or like me do a number of solos before the required coach jumps etc, but in the context of your post, it seems a relevant question.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #137 November 8, 2006 QuoteI wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. ............ go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane You clearly have no idea how a S/L progression course of training works or you'd have never said these things. They're completely wrong. Please educate yourself before posting further on things about which you know so little, especially when what you say may be taken as advice by a fellow student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #138 November 8, 2006 QuoteGiven that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. You clearly don't understand the programs. SL is a means to an end, not an end. Quote-go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case I learned SL and just got a medal at the US Nationals for FREEFALL. So your theory does not hold water. QuoteWhat good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. Well for one it is more jumps. Also it is more experience under canopy (Which is the number one killer right now). It may not count towards your license, but they are jumps that do count for experience."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #139 November 8, 2006 Congrats on the medal Ron Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #140 November 8, 2006 Quote What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. So that's how it is in Holland. Let's look at a different perspective...my experience. My 5 s/l jumps were $240 and my 20 ff's were $500 total (Yes, that included gear, instructions, some jumps video'd and burned for me), and other jumped with me (I think the only solo I did after my 5, 10 and 20 sec delays was my check dive. It included I think three four ways, several three ways, and obviously a bunch of two ways) That got me to my class A license. $740 total. Now if I would have done AFF, it would have cost me $815 FOR JUST THE AFF JUMPS. I would still have another 17 jumps to pay for before I got to my class A. So assume that I could just pay $25/jump like the s/l deal, that's another $425, bringing the total to $1,240. That's nearly twice the cost of going s/l and ending up with the same results! Yes, you'd have more freefall time with AFF, but if you spend half the time trying to get stable, you're not learning ff skills, you're learning to get stable. So for my experience...hmm $740 or $1240??? Not a hard decision. Every country is going to be different. That's why I have said multiple times for her to go to the different dz in her area, look at both programs, both dzs and their instructors, and costs and make the decision which is right for her. And I guess I don't need to comment about your misconception about s/l being all about canopy work as I see others have educated you on the finer points of s/l. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #141 November 8, 2006 Are the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. I actually enjoyed my static line jumps, especially as they were out of a little wee cessna. We didn't strut hang, just hoevered our butts out the door and then GO!! Lots of fun, except the time I landed in a bush. Watching my buddy land on a car made up for it though Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #142 November 8, 2006 QuoteAre the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. You can see from my jump #s that I'm a complete newbie. I really don't have a problem with newbies posting what they think about SL as long as they know what they are talking about ... and I can't honestly see that someone who has never done it is qualified to comment on it. You did both, I did both, there are instructors who teach both.. fine. These are informed opinions one way or the other, people who have a reference for comparing the two, whatever their preference (or lack of preference). But someone who's just done AFF and has never done a single SL jump... other than regurgitating what someone else has told them (possibly as a marketing ploy to make more money judging by some of the comments about some DZs here), how the heck are they qualified to comment on SL?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #143 November 8, 2006 I know I know i was only teasing Aint I a stinker ... Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #144 November 8, 2006 Static-line is great for teaching canopy skills, but that is only part of the total list of skills that a student has to master. Static-line - or IAD - is also better during the rainy months. Between now and June, we count ourselves lucky if we can get 3,000 or 4,000 feet of altitude, which is fine for S/L, IAD and short freefalls, but not enough for AFF/PFF. Ergo, students can stay current - and maybe learn some new canopy skills - over the winter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #145 November 8, 2006 Here's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? When I made the decision to start learning to jump, I knew I was going to stick with it, so I didn't care how I learned, my decision was purely financial. I did look into both programs but figure in the long term, what difference would it make. I'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #146 November 8, 2006 QuoteI'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. It would be interesting to know how many members of the World Team did SL too Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #147 November 9, 2006 QuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #148 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. And many probably wouldn't have made it to jump #26 if they didn't do static line. I know I wouldn't have made it through AFF for the financial aspect of it. Goes both ways. Question was for instructors who have seen the long term effects of both, not which retains more students. I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #149 November 9, 2006 Quote I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. And that is probably the most sensible statement in this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites toolbox 0 #150 November 9, 2006 I'm both an S/L and AFF instructor and I would say AFF is the best way to learn how to fly. 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Andy9o8 0 #132 November 6, 2006 QuoteS/L works as long as everything goes according to the plan , However if a student goes into a flat spin after a 20, or 30 sec delay "they" are on their own where as if they went AFF there is someone else there to help them . Students on S/L progression don't go right to 20 or 30 second delays. They do 5 S/L's, followed by 2 or 3 h&p's, followed by 2 or 3 delays each at 5, 10, 15, 20 & 30 seconds. They don't get cleared to move up to the longer delays until they've shown consistent stability at the level they're at. If they're unstable at any level & can't restabilize, they're taught to pull (and then they have to repeat the level). My real point being: AFF is a fine method; but those who know nothing else seem to presume and perpetuate a growing myth that a student needs his hand held every moment of the way in freefall by an instructor or somehow it's "more dangerous". 'Tain't so. I'll say it again: IMHO, the best method for teaching most student is a hybrid program that combines the best of all methods. Here's an example of one such program: http://www.nepaskydiving.com/htm/skydivinglessons.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #133 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuote reply] You won't need to do sl jumps to improve your canopy skills after qualification, you can just do hop and pops. sl is compleatly different, you wouldn't do sl after aff. Ahhh, ok thanks, see all advice helpsWould anyone reccomend a canopy course to follow Aff?Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #134 November 7, 2006 QuoteWould anyone reccomend a canopy course to follow Aff? Now you're just trying to start a fight I recommend the "UK AFF, no old people who've done static line EVER" course, available only in Britain on special "static line is poo (S.L.I.P)" branded dropzones. BPA magazine has a special voucher that entitles you to 'arrogant swagger' tuition and a free "15 jumps and I know EVERYTHING" t-shirt. Part of the pass requirement involves being rude to high jump number old skydivers and throwing rocks at them. I failed packing, and one or two times somehow ended up with a duvet on my back, but my aim improved no end. Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sparkie 0 #135 November 8, 2006 QuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #136 November 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case And after how many SL jumps are you able to freefall in Holland? Where I am it's 8, but I believe in some countries it's 5 so you can ff from jump 6. You are aware that static line progression is not a static line on every single jump, but just describes the progression where you start on SL? And where I am it is 25 parachute descents for an A, so SL jumps count (although 75 freefalls is required for a B). given what you said above, btw, I have to ask why you have 40 jumps and are still on student status...? I wouldn't normally ask as I know some people take longer than others, or like me do a number of solos before the required coach jumps etc, but in the context of your post, it seems a relevant question.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #137 November 8, 2006 QuoteI wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. ............ go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane You clearly have no idea how a S/L progression course of training works or you'd have never said these things. They're completely wrong. Please educate yourself before posting further on things about which you know so little, especially when what you say may be taken as advice by a fellow student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #138 November 8, 2006 QuoteGiven that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. You clearly don't understand the programs. SL is a means to an end, not an end. Quote-go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case I learned SL and just got a medal at the US Nationals for FREEFALL. So your theory does not hold water. QuoteWhat good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. Well for one it is more jumps. Also it is more experience under canopy (Which is the number one killer right now). It may not count towards your license, but they are jumps that do count for experience."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #139 November 8, 2006 Congrats on the medal Ron Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #140 November 8, 2006 Quote What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. So that's how it is in Holland. Let's look at a different perspective...my experience. My 5 s/l jumps were $240 and my 20 ff's were $500 total (Yes, that included gear, instructions, some jumps video'd and burned for me), and other jumped with me (I think the only solo I did after my 5, 10 and 20 sec delays was my check dive. It included I think three four ways, several three ways, and obviously a bunch of two ways) That got me to my class A license. $740 total. Now if I would have done AFF, it would have cost me $815 FOR JUST THE AFF JUMPS. I would still have another 17 jumps to pay for before I got to my class A. So assume that I could just pay $25/jump like the s/l deal, that's another $425, bringing the total to $1,240. That's nearly twice the cost of going s/l and ending up with the same results! Yes, you'd have more freefall time with AFF, but if you spend half the time trying to get stable, you're not learning ff skills, you're learning to get stable. So for my experience...hmm $740 or $1240??? Not a hard decision. Every country is going to be different. That's why I have said multiple times for her to go to the different dz in her area, look at both programs, both dzs and their instructors, and costs and make the decision which is right for her. And I guess I don't need to comment about your misconception about s/l being all about canopy work as I see others have educated you on the finer points of s/l. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #141 November 8, 2006 Are the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. I actually enjoyed my static line jumps, especially as they were out of a little wee cessna. We didn't strut hang, just hoevered our butts out the door and then GO!! Lots of fun, except the time I landed in a bush. Watching my buddy land on a car made up for it though Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #142 November 8, 2006 QuoteAre the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. You can see from my jump #s that I'm a complete newbie. I really don't have a problem with newbies posting what they think about SL as long as they know what they are talking about ... and I can't honestly see that someone who has never done it is qualified to comment on it. You did both, I did both, there are instructors who teach both.. fine. These are informed opinions one way or the other, people who have a reference for comparing the two, whatever their preference (or lack of preference). But someone who's just done AFF and has never done a single SL jump... other than regurgitating what someone else has told them (possibly as a marketing ploy to make more money judging by some of the comments about some DZs here), how the heck are they qualified to comment on SL?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #143 November 8, 2006 I know I know i was only teasing Aint I a stinker ... Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #144 November 8, 2006 Static-line is great for teaching canopy skills, but that is only part of the total list of skills that a student has to master. Static-line - or IAD - is also better during the rainy months. Between now and June, we count ourselves lucky if we can get 3,000 or 4,000 feet of altitude, which is fine for S/L, IAD and short freefalls, but not enough for AFF/PFF. Ergo, students can stay current - and maybe learn some new canopy skills - over the winter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #145 November 8, 2006 Here's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? When I made the decision to start learning to jump, I knew I was going to stick with it, so I didn't care how I learned, my decision was purely financial. I did look into both programs but figure in the long term, what difference would it make. I'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #146 November 8, 2006 QuoteI'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. It would be interesting to know how many members of the World Team did SL too Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #147 November 9, 2006 QuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #148 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. And many probably wouldn't have made it to jump #26 if they didn't do static line. I know I wouldn't have made it through AFF for the financial aspect of it. Goes both ways. Question was for instructors who have seen the long term effects of both, not which retains more students. I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #149 November 9, 2006 Quote I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. And that is probably the most sensible statement in this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites toolbox 0 #150 November 9, 2006 I'm both an S/L and AFF instructor and I would say AFF is the best way to learn how to fly. 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pilatus_p 0 #134 November 7, 2006 QuoteWould anyone reccomend a canopy course to follow Aff? Now you're just trying to start a fight I recommend the "UK AFF, no old people who've done static line EVER" course, available only in Britain on special "static line is poo (S.L.I.P)" branded dropzones. BPA magazine has a special voucher that entitles you to 'arrogant swagger' tuition and a free "15 jumps and I know EVERYTHING" t-shirt. Part of the pass requirement involves being rude to high jump number old skydivers and throwing rocks at them. I failed packing, and one or two times somehow ended up with a duvet on my back, but my aim improved no end. Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #135 November 8, 2006 QuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #136 November 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's cheaper per jump, and it really sucks to have to re-do a AFF level (specially level 1-3) Assuming that the person will want to continue the sport after the course for arguments sake. Given that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. In holland you have to have 25 FF jumps for your a licence, so you need to still make them after your sl course. What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. I know, I'm just a newbie, but I'd say -go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case And after how many SL jumps are you able to freefall in Holland? Where I am it's 8, but I believe in some countries it's 5 so you can ff from jump 6. You are aware that static line progression is not a static line on every single jump, but just describes the progression where you start on SL? And where I am it is 25 parachute descents for an A, so SL jumps count (although 75 freefalls is required for a B). given what you said above, btw, I have to ask why you have 40 jumps and are still on student status...? I wouldn't normally ask as I know some people take longer than others, or like me do a number of solos before the required coach jumps etc, but in the context of your post, it seems a relevant question.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #137 November 8, 2006 QuoteI wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. ............ go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane You clearly have no idea how a S/L progression course of training works or you'd have never said these things. They're completely wrong. Please educate yourself before posting further on things about which you know so little, especially when what you say may be taken as advice by a fellow student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #138 November 8, 2006 QuoteGiven that, I wonder why anyone would want to do the S/L course at all, unless they dont want to ff and just stick with canopy work. You clearly don't understand the programs. SL is a means to an end, not an end. Quote-go SL if you never want to do FF and stick with canopy work str8 from the plane -do AFF if the above is not the case I learned SL and just got a medal at the US Nationals for FREEFALL. So your theory does not hold water. QuoteWhat good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. Well for one it is more jumps. Also it is more experience under canopy (Which is the number one killer right now). It may not count towards your license, but they are jumps that do count for experience."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #139 November 8, 2006 Congrats on the medal Ron Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #140 November 8, 2006 Quote What good is it that sl is cheaper per jump? Overall you pay way more to get to solo FF status. SL course incl 5 jumps is 420 euro over here, aff is 1250. Imo I paid 420 euro too much if i took the sl route. So that's how it is in Holland. Let's look at a different perspective...my experience. My 5 s/l jumps were $240 and my 20 ff's were $500 total (Yes, that included gear, instructions, some jumps video'd and burned for me), and other jumped with me (I think the only solo I did after my 5, 10 and 20 sec delays was my check dive. It included I think three four ways, several three ways, and obviously a bunch of two ways) That got me to my class A license. $740 total. Now if I would have done AFF, it would have cost me $815 FOR JUST THE AFF JUMPS. I would still have another 17 jumps to pay for before I got to my class A. So assume that I could just pay $25/jump like the s/l deal, that's another $425, bringing the total to $1,240. That's nearly twice the cost of going s/l and ending up with the same results! Yes, you'd have more freefall time with AFF, but if you spend half the time trying to get stable, you're not learning ff skills, you're learning to get stable. So for my experience...hmm $740 or $1240??? Not a hard decision. Every country is going to be different. That's why I have said multiple times for her to go to the different dz in her area, look at both programs, both dzs and their instructors, and costs and make the decision which is right for her. And I guess I don't need to comment about your misconception about s/l being all about canopy work as I see others have educated you on the finer points of s/l. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #141 November 8, 2006 Are the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. I actually enjoyed my static line jumps, especially as they were out of a little wee cessna. We didn't strut hang, just hoevered our butts out the door and then GO!! Lots of fun, except the time I landed in a bush. Watching my buddy land on a car made up for it though Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #142 November 8, 2006 QuoteAre the AFF'ers just baiting the static liners now? I mean its fun watching the fireworks, but come on - be nice. You can see from my jump #s that I'm a complete newbie. I really don't have a problem with newbies posting what they think about SL as long as they know what they are talking about ... and I can't honestly see that someone who has never done it is qualified to comment on it. You did both, I did both, there are instructors who teach both.. fine. These are informed opinions one way or the other, people who have a reference for comparing the two, whatever their preference (or lack of preference). But someone who's just done AFF and has never done a single SL jump... other than regurgitating what someone else has told them (possibly as a marketing ploy to make more money judging by some of the comments about some DZs here), how the heck are they qualified to comment on SL?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #143 November 8, 2006 I know I know i was only teasing Aint I a stinker ... Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #144 November 8, 2006 Static-line is great for teaching canopy skills, but that is only part of the total list of skills that a student has to master. Static-line - or IAD - is also better during the rainy months. Between now and June, we count ourselves lucky if we can get 3,000 or 4,000 feet of altitude, which is fine for S/L, IAD and short freefalls, but not enough for AFF/PFF. Ergo, students can stay current - and maybe learn some new canopy skills - over the winter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #145 November 8, 2006 Here's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? When I made the decision to start learning to jump, I knew I was going to stick with it, so I didn't care how I learned, my decision was purely financial. I did look into both programs but figure in the long term, what difference would it make. I'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #146 November 8, 2006 QuoteI'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate. It would be interesting to know how many members of the World Team did SL too Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #147 November 9, 2006 QuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #148 November 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteHere's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25? Many of us wouldn't have made it to jump 26 without AFF-1 at the front. It was the lure that got us to do one jump (in my case #3, but first without a TI attached) and then decide to get good enough to fall with purpose. Back then, the lure of a SL jump would have been minimal. In hindsight, might have been different. But you don't get that knowledge until after it's too late. And many probably wouldn't have made it to jump #26 if they didn't do static line. I know I wouldn't have made it through AFF for the financial aspect of it. Goes both ways. Question was for instructors who have seen the long term effects of both, not which retains more students. I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #149 November 9, 2006 Quote I figure if someone's going to stick with it, they're going to stick with it no matter how they learn, 'cause either you have the passion or you don't. And that is probably the most sensible statement in this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #150 November 9, 2006 I'm both an S/L and AFF instructor and I would say AFF is the best way to learn how to fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
