The time has come; which one should I do?

[kris2extreme 0]

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[QUOTE]and what the different winds are doing between the ground and altitude[/QUOTE]

How can you determine ground wind from up at altitude though? Sure, you can look at conditions while you're on the ground before you take off, but what if ground conditions change by the time you're at altitude?

sometimes an aviation winds-aloft report is available... other times it may take the first load or two to figure them out
It is not uncommon for the wind to be blowing multiple directions and speeds at different altitudes. S @ 10knts on the ground, S @ 15knts at 3000 feet, E @ 20knts at 6000, N @ 20knts at 9000... etc, you get the point.

as for ground conditions changing between take-off and landing, it happens. When you get under canopy you need to take a look around and find your indicators of what the wind is doing, be it a windsock, grass, water, or watching how fast the ground is moving below you while you're under canopy pointing different directions.

Sometimes they change drastically enough that you land off the DZ. It happens. Thats what the student training is for, so you can land safely whether on the DZ landing area, or in somebody's back yard.

[billvon 2,400]

>but what if ground conditions change by the time you're at altitude?

That's where the art of spotting comes in!

Is there significant weather in the area? Any storms? Might mean a wind change is in the offing.

Is the plane moving slower along the ground? Winds aloft may have changed. Is there dust blowing on the surface? Surface winds may have changed. Might be time to ask the pilot to call down for a wind report!

Still unsure? You're never 100% sure; sometimes you just have to guess and do your best. Since canopies have pretty good glide ratios nowadays, even if you're off by 1/4 mile you're still mostly OK.

[Lastchance 0]

AFF.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[gravitywhore 0]

SHUT UP AND JUMP

[kelpdiver 2]

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Right. And most former AFF students with 100 jumps are more scared to exit low than former SL students with 10 jumps as well. It's all in what you're used to. Heck, nowadays an AFF grad will do one mandatory "hop and pop" from 6000 feet, and that will be it - he's never going to get out that low again! It was terrifying!

That's not an inherent problem with AFF, but it does highlight the need to do some 3000 foot exits at some point - which most AFF grads do not do.

Considering the A signoff sheet has a mandatory 3500 exit, why is the status quo with some places allowing a 6000 min acceptable?

The ISP's approach at suggesting a 5500 first was a great way to remove those 'low' altitude fears, and make the 3500 easy as pie.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If an AFF student goes unstable at pull time, do they not suffer the same consequence as a s/l going unstable while exiting?

I imagine they're worse, but the most 'unstable' I ever was at pull time was a slow spin or dropping a shoulder, whereas it took a while to get a tight clean exit. (which can probably be blamed in large part on not needing one at 15k)

But you, and everyone else, really, should answer for B_dog's actual situation. Money is a factor - which is why I suggested he consider it. $500 to get in 10 SL jumps - if successful he ends up cleared for self supervised freefall and can afford to do the remaining student jumps at a consistent clip at Taft. It's a concentrated 2 day event, so the long drive and cost issues with the distance as lessened. It also means he loses some of the touted benefits of a SL approach. At 5 jumps a day, I don't see time for packing lessons. It's more accelerated than most people's AFF experience.

[AFFI 0]

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Considering the A signoff sheet has a mandatory 3500 exit, why is the status quo with some places allowing a 6000 min acceptable?

Good point - but I wouldent sign it.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,400]

> why is the status quo with some places allowing a 6000 min acceptable?

Because for many DZ's, standard H+P altitude is 5000, and the plane keeps climbing on jump run.

[Squeak 17]

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> why is the status quo with some places allowing a 6000 min acceptable?

Because for many DZ's, standard H+P altitude is 5000, and the plane keeps climbing on jump run.

Which for many planes is a BAD idea

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Fast 0]

B_dog,

If there is one thing that you take away from this thread. Understand that you are more likely to stick with it if you stay closer to home. You wont have to drive as long to go to the DZ every weekend. You wont have to remake all new friends in a month when you get sick of driving to the DZ 4 hours away when there is one closer.

All of the arguments and talk about which program is better than the other doesn't matter. If both programs were readily available at the close DZ the last 3 pages would matter more. Just go to the closer DZ as was stated very early on. After you get your A licence check out some other places if you want. See what fits your personality best.

Like rigs, cars, laptops, bikes, canopies, planes, etc. people will come on here spouting about which method to learn is the best. Understand that in many cases what is best for you is what is most accesable.

One other thing to keep in mind. When you show up at your local DZ to learn to skydive, don't walk in there with preconcieved notions about how you should learn. If the DZ you are going to is a reputable one they will be able to teach you just fine. If you walk in there with a whole bunch of ideas of how stuff should be done or what you should be learning because of this website it is going to make it harder for your instructors to help you learn.


----------------------------------------------
On another note. My DZ still does static line training for first jump students because we can do it cheaper. It lets people experience flying thier own canopy w/o having to commit to a full AFF jump. We have a lot of people who make first static line jumps and never come back. If they do continue with the program though, eventually they just end up doing AFF.

I did AFF and to be honest the first few hop and pops were a bit scary but it is stupid to think that they wouldn't be. Doing anything different for the first time can put a person on edge. I have gotten to supervise (as a coach) a few students doing thier second hop and pop. Some people will let them do it from 4k. I make sure we don't go higher than 3500 because I think it is important.

All this arguing over which method is better and people are missing out on the real point of this thread. We have another person who wants to go skydiving. It isn't about which method is better, its about what is going to allow him to make it through student training. I know if I had to drive 4 hours there is no way that I would have finished. At least not as fast as I did. It had to be easy to get there for me because I am impulsive. Both methods are going to reach the same goal and in the end the pros and cons of each are easy things to overcome.

I can understand where wildfan is coming from because I know her DZ. I think that a lot of her mindset comes not from the fact that she did static line but more from the size and people at her DZ. I am not going to start or get into an argument regarding if smaller or larger DZs are better. I am going to say they are both better but for different reasons. The goal in all of this is to find a place that you feel comfortable jumping at. That is what we should be telling this new student about. Not showing the fact that skydivers can be pretty arogant about things at times.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kelpdiver 2]

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> why is the status quo with some places allowing a 6000 min acceptable?

Because for many DZ's, standard H+P altitude is 5000, and the plane keeps climbing on jump run.

I didn't ask if it were acceptable to the DZO. This isn't one of those waiverable elements. Any instructor who stamps that A card with a 5000ft jump did their student a great disservice.

It's like any other of the many first leaps of faith the student has to do. Afterwards you don't know why you worried so much.