Lineover on big-way

[billvon 2,436]

On Saturday, at the Perris big-ways, I found myself having to open somewhat low (around 2000) to deal with some traffic issues. It felt like a normal opening. As my canopy opened I saw four people open about 100 yards in front of me. They all had off-heading openings, and two of them headed straight at me. As soon as my canopy was open I grabbed the rear risers and steered between them (there was plenty of room.) One of them circled to take a second pass at me, so I quickly killed my slider, released the brakes and turned away to enter the pattern (which was very crowded.)

During all this, I noticed my canopy was trying to turn left; I could counter it with rear riser or brake so I didn't worry too much (or, to be more accurate, I was more worried about other things.) Once I had established myself in the pattern, I looked up to see what was awry. I had a lineover! The second or third B-line in from the center was over the top of the canopy, and that whole leading edge was just flapping in the breeze. Most of the canopy was pressurized and flying, though.

I was at 1200 feet at this point, which is just enough altitude for a canopy transfer if I started immediately. But it seemed to be controllable, so I did a very fast controllability check (hard right, left and violent flare) to make sure it wouldn't fold up on me. It responded OK. I tried a few more flares to see if I could clear it, but it wouldn't clear. I could feel the canopy slow down as I flared, though, which meant that I could at least land it survivably. Winds were reasonable, and a flare combined with a PLF seemed like a better risk than a low cutaway.

At 1000 feet I made one more attempt to clear it - I grabbed all the B-lines on the left side of the canopy, pulled them down about a foot, and let them pop back up. That cleared the problem. I landed normally in the pack of jumpers.

Afterwards there was no damage to the canopy. I think the winds we were seeing during packing may have caused one of the B-lines to get loose and wander around, although I've never heard of a B-line lineover before. It was a Nitro 108 with non-cascaded black HMA lines - the non-cascaded lines may have given the B line more freedom to wander around during deployment and cause trouble, but that's only a theory on my part.

[AggieDave 6]

Do you think you might have attempted a cutaway at 1200ft if you had a Skyhook equiped rig?

EDIT: Good job on keeping your cool, although I'm sure you know that and don't need someone with less then 1/2 your jump numbers to know that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,436]

> Do you think you might have attempted a cutaway at 1200ft if you had
>a Skyhook equiped rig?

Had I wanted to cut away at that altitude, I would have done a canopy transfer even if I had a Skyhook.

[AggieDave 6]

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> Do you think you might have attempted a cutaway at 1200ft if you had
>a Skyhook equiped rig?

Had I wanted to cut away at that altitude, I would have done a canopy transfer even if I had a Skyhook.

Just curious, especially since one of Bill's selling points is the ability to get under a reserve after a fairly low canopy collision.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Reginald 0]

Nice Job! I like hearing about how the highly experienced handle issues like this. At my experience level, I would have just plane chopped it. I don’t have the skills you do and so have fewer options.

I won’t ask you what your hard deck is. ;-)

“Canopy transfer” that’s a good one! I’ll have to remember that!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[pilotdave 0]

Hmm... with a skyhook, wouldn't just cutting away be a lot safer than attempting a canopy transfer? Or would you just not trust the skyhook to work?

Dave

[cvfd1399 0]

How do you get a reserve out of the freebag and inflated while under a already normal canopy. With my low #s it seems to me that there is not enough speed to make it inflate. I know how to do a canopy transfer if I find a 2 out already inflated, and I can see how a streamer or a blown up canopy has enough speed to do it. Would you manually pull it out of the bag, then make quick turns(which would seem dangerous)to get it to inflate then transfer it?

[billvon 2,436]

> How do you get a reserve out of the freebag and inflated while under a
>already normal canopy.

The usual way. A lot depends on the loading of the main canopy. We've had AAD's fire on 100 lb women and the airspeed wasn't enough to cause the PC to pull the freebag off her back, but then again, I'm on a 1.9 to 1 canopy that's flying pretty quickly.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Nice Job! I like hearing about how the highly experienced handle issues like this. At my experience level, I would have just plane chopped it. I don’t have the skills you do and so have fewer options.

I won’t ask you what your hard deck is. ;-)

“Canopy transfer” that’s a good one! I’ll have to remember that!

You know, Bill von is a really heads up jumper. He is very safe to be in the air with. He obviously did things to land safely, but if things had gone contrary to what actually happened there might have been a tragic outcome.

In Bill's account of the jump, I have a few things that would lead me to not give the dive a 'Nice Job!' rating.

Bill says:

Quote

One of them circled to take a second pass at me, so I quickly killed my slider, released the brakes and turned away to enter the pattern (which was very crowded.)

Killing the slider or removing booties or anything on that order is definitely frowned upon on big-ways. Bill never mentions looking at his canopy at this time to see if it is good. Maybe it is just me, but I always look at my canopy after opening - even if it passes a controllability check.

Bill says:

Quote

Once I had established myself in the pattern, I looked up to see what was awry. I had a lineover!

This says to me that Bill's priority is landing close, not safely. He put himself into the pattern before he even realized that he had a less than perfect canopy.

What does that say about his awareness (on this particular jump?)?

What does that say about his concern for the safety of others?
[BTW - the pattern of people landing in the grass area on both the POPS loads, the weekend before and the K&T loads was much more congested than the 300-way or the 357-way loads and any other +100-way I have done at Perris or anywhere else. I was not on the K&T loads, but did observe landings from the ground on Saturday and the first two loads on Sunday.]

Bill says:

Quote

At 1000 feet I made one more attempt to clear it - I grabbed all the B-lines on the left side of the canopy, pulled them down about a foot, and let them pop back up. That cleared the problem. I landed normally in the pack of jumpers.

It is really nice that Bill's actions fixed this problem. But what if it did not??
Would we have seen Bill doing a canopy transfer in the middle of the pack or a really low cutaway??

What Bill did on this jump was a valid solution because he landed safely. I would not recommend the action to anyone else. I think Bill was very lucky that the canopy worked itself out and he was able to land safely.
.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,436]

>Bill never mentions looking at his canopy at this time to see if it is
>good. Maybe it is just me, but I always look at my canopy after
>opening - even if it passes a controllability check.

I know you to be a safe big-way jumper, and I suspect you would not look away from traffic in front of you (traffic that posed a collision threat) to look at your canopy if it were flying normally. Nor would you do a controllability check when presented with close traffic, at least until you were clear of them. Your first priority after deploying on a bigway, once open, is to clear your airspace and prepare to turn if a collision is imminent.

>This says to me that Bill's priority is landing close, not safely.

Actually, my priority at the time was avoiding a collision with 100 other jumpers. Flying against the pattern would have risked a collision.

>It is really nice that Bill's actions fixed this problem. But what if it did
> not??

I would have landed the canopy anyway. It was controllable, if not perfect.

>Would we have seen Bill doing a canopy transfer in the middle of the
> pack or a really low cutaway??

Possible but unlikely. It was landable as it was.

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

[BTW - the pattern of people landing in the grass area on both the POPS loads, the weekend before and the K&T loads was much more congested than the 300-way or the 357-way loads and any other +100-way I have done at Perris or anywhere else. I was not on the K&T loads, but did observe landings from the ground on Saturday and the first two loads on Sunday.].
.

I can't compare with the 300+ ways' congestion, but I thought that too many people were going for the grass on the K&T jumps. There was one canopy collision during the event (no one was hurt). I chose to get my gear dirty in the field to the northwest.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

John, I too landed out in the dirt. After the first two times landing out there, the truck drivers knew just were to park. I would just land by the truck, and get a ride back right to the fence. The only draw back was the amount of dust that gets kicked up. After a few times, I figured out that wearing my helmet with the visor down was the ticket.

I don't understand the attraction to everyone wanting to land on the grass. That is just way too much traffic for little ole me.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[JohnMitchell 14]

A heck of a skydive. Just curious, but don't you trust your gear enough to chop at 1200', if you need to? Sure, the ground would look really big, but what reserve takes more than 500 feet to open? (tandems not included) I don't think I'd like trusting a lineover at 1.9 to 1 to land well, if it didn't clear. Doesn't sound like a fun situation either way. Glad you made it work out.

[el_chester 4]

Glad it worked out ok. I was in the same plane as you and didn´t hear of this until now.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[billvon 2,436]

>Just curious, but don't you trust your gear enough to chop at 1200', if you need to?

Sure. If I had an unlandable canopy, I'd have chopped it (or done a canopy transfer.) 1200 feet is a bit low for cutting away anything other than an unlandable main, though. It's not just the altitude that the cutaway takes, it's altitude to deal with a hard reserve pull, altitude to deal with a line twist, altitude to turn into the wind etc. Also, I assumed I was at 1200 feet because that's what my altimeter said; I know it can be 200-300 feet off, so I may have been at 900 feet.

One thing I probably should have done differently is taken a second to check my canopy after I dealt with the traffic after opening, before I entered the landing pattern. That would have let me make that decision at something like 1500 feet, which is a better altitude to be making such decisions at.

[steve1 5]

Thanks for all the personal insight on this scenario.

I guess everyone knows you need to check your canopy on openning. Many times I've forgot to do just that. I was too busy watching for other canopies etc. I guess those could have been wasted seconds in dealing with a malfunction.....Steve1

[LannerFalcon 0]

Hi I 'm a bit of a newbie, but aren't canopy transfers frowned upon?Don't you risk entanglement of your reserve with the main?

I think as a newbie I'd of just cut away and seen if the silver handle or the rsl sorted me out first, is that wrong?

.............................................................

Break now Jester!

[billvon 2,436]

> Hi I 'm a bit of a newbie, but aren't canopy transfers frowned upon?

Yes. They should really only be considered if you are:

a. really low.
b. have an unlandable canopy
c. can make it fly straight.

It is rare to get B and C at the same time. The danger with the canopy transfer is that you pull the reserve, wait a second, then try to cut away but have a hard pull on your cutaway handle, thus risking an entanglement. An alternative, as someone mentioned, is to use a Skyhook, which will open your reserve in a similar amount of time without the risk of entanglement.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Hey, you have forgotten to tell something.
Canopy transfer in NFS.

NOT FOR STUDENTS.

1. They have their instructors.
2. They have a bit simpler emergency procedures.
3. They open high, so they can not have that situation...

[Jimbo 0]

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3. They open high, so they can not have that situation...

They absolutely can. Opening high and having a good canopy up high is hardly a guarantee that you'll have a good canopy down low.

Now, on the subject of canopy transfers - that's something for student and instructor. Absolutely.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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They absolutely can. Opening high and having a good canopy up high is hardly a guarantee that you'll have a good canopy down low.

If he or she flies a student flying profile. How could he/she had a trouble donw from a perfect canopy?

[Squeak 17]

Is a canopy transfer a CReW thing or a Yank thing?
I've never heard of it as an EP, the only thing we are taught here is cutaway/silver.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Jimbo 0]

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If he or she flies a student flying profile. How could he/she had a trouble donw from a perfect canopy?

1. Students, by their nature, are unpredictible.

2. There's more than one way to end up with a fouled canopy. The first thought that comes to mind is a collision.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[peterk 0]

I was wondering why you weren't thinking about slicing a line with a hook knife...

Do you jump with one, or do you just believe that it can't get bad enough as long as you are high enough to pull a reserve with a skyhook?

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[Jimbo 0]

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I was wondering why you weren't thinking about slicing a line with a hook knife...

Of course that's always an option. Consider though:

There are plenty of canopy messes that just can't be solved by a hook knife.

If a problem is able to be solved by a hook knife it's unlikely that you'll have the time to solve it if you're already low.

Additionally, I was responding to someone who said something about "students will never get that low with a bad canopy". The point was that any of us could start with a perfect canopy and end up with a ball of shit at any time. I don't know where you made the leap to "it can't get bad enough as long as you are high enough to pull a reserve with a skyhook".

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.