Skyball (or something close to it)

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks a lot! Your explanation was far better that I could find on their web site.

Video, please!

[DSE 3]

Quote

Thanks a lot! Your explanation was far better that I could find on their web site.

Video, please!

Here's your vid
Sorry it took a couple days to upload.
Since part of the thread is about safety, notice that everyone stays at similar altitude when passing the ball back and forth, and no one is flying for the ball; it's aimed at specific person.
Vladiball flies very smoothly, IMO.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks for the video!

Had FAA some words for that? I'd like to try it, but I was told that is not legal in Finland.... Some people tied to legalize, but they failed.

[DSE 3]

I'm sure the FAA has something to say about it, not sure, however. We do this quite regularly and have had FAA personnel around when we've done it. My understanding is that due to how the Vladiball works, it's legal. But that doesn't mean the FAA wouldn't say something about it, somewhere. The Vladiball is a *helluva* lot more safe than a tennis ball filled with BB's.

[packing_jarrett 0]

Whats the whole specifics in a vladi ball?

Na' Cho' Cheese

[winsor 186]

Quote

Whats the whole specifics in a vladi ball?

http://www.vladiball.org/

Though I do not particularly like the guy who makes these, and consider it to be a half-baked design from an engineering standpoint, I have bought many products made by people with whom I would not personally associate, and the market is small enough that it does not really justify the cost of developing a mature product.

Personally, I have stuck to "Sunkist dives," where one flies relative to a spherical navel orange over farm country (eccentric oranges track like a bastard).


Blue skies,

Winsor

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I'm too lazy to find the reg but it isn't illegal to use a space ball. The wording is something like "as long as care is taken not to harm persons or property on the ground."

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

Whats the whole specifics in a vladi ball?

http://www.vladiball.org/

Though I do not particularly like the guy who makes these, and consider it to be a half-baked design from an engineering standpoint, I have bought many products made by people with whom I would not personally associate, and the market is small enough that it does not really justify the cost of developing a mature product.

Personally, I have stuck to "Sunkist dives," where one flies relative to a spherical navel orange over farm country (eccentric oranges track like a bastard).


Blue skies,

Winsor

I completely missed your point.
~you don't like Vladimir Milosavljevic
(certainly your prerogative, I've never communicated with him, just bought a ball.

~You feel like it's poorly engineered
(design/build/sell your own?)

~"the cost of a 'mature' product? A "Mature" product doesn't have a "cost." the product becomes mature after it's been on the market for a while, flaws are identified, and the product has been redesigned to improve the product and/or repair the flaws. Vladiball hasn't been around long enough to be "mature." In my industry, mature means it's no longer needed due to greater/newer technology that replaces current tech. Maybe you could come up with a new technology.

~You'd rather dive with an orange that could EASILY cause significant damage on impact as opposed to purchasing a tested, functioning product for 50.00?

Vladiball might not be the best engineering at any price, yet from my perspective, I appreciate that someone has designed and offers a toy that we can safely play with in the air, that allows for easy adjustment of fall rate, that is safe for people on the ground in the event one of us screws up and drops it. Haven't seen it happen yet, but it surely can (and will).

At the end of the day, I don't care if Vladimir Milosavljevic is a prince or a prick, I just appreciate his toy design and the fun it affords me.

[Vectracide 0]

I couldn't agree with Freefli more.

The reason you are getting flamed is because you have no business doing what you are doing. Now I am stating the facts here:

You have no idea how to correctly build a deadly spaceball...but that doesn't concern you much.

Based on your video, you have no control of your body in flight, especially when you are trying to catch the ball.

You almost smashed your face into the ball while trying to "catch" it.

Why are you the "ball master" when your jumping with someone with 800 jumps?

You can't even realize how lucky you are to get the ball back at the end, then you throw it again and lose it. Absolutely fucking retarded.

And the worst part of all this is: Now pay attention Jarrett.... you refuse to honor anyone's opinion or advice of jumpers with thousands of jumps of experience, because you think you know it all.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[DSE 3]

Quote

I couldn't agree with Freefli more.

The reason you are getting flamed is because you have no business doing what you are doing. Now I am stating the facts here:

You have no idea how to correctly build a deadly spaceball...but that doesn't concern you much.

Based on your video, you have no control of your body in flight, especially when you are trying to catch the ball.

You almost smashed your face into the ball while trying to "catch" it.

Why are you the "ball master" when your jumping with someone with 800 jumps?

You can't even realize how lucky you are to get the ball back at the end, then you throw it again and lose it. Absolutely fucking retarded.

And the worst part of all this is: Now pay attention Jarrett.... you refuse to honor anyone's opinion or advice of jumpers with thousands of jumps of experience, because you think you know it all.

I agree with every point in your post except the ending comment.... Jarrett isn't the one arguing a point here. Why attack him?

[Vectracide 0]

First of all, it wasn't an attack. It was a call to Jarrett to pay attention. He stated that 2/3's of his post turn into grilling towards him, such as this person. There is a reason for that. I am hoping that he can see it for what it really is. This goes for anyone else that feels they are flamed on a regular basis.

When everyone is telling them here on this site that what they are doing is stupid, unsafe, irresponsible, dumb, aggressive, not safe, too early, ect, ect, ect......there is a reason for it.....and that reason is that they already heard it at their own dropzone. They are just looking for blessings here, and when they don't hear what they want, they can easily brush it off without the fallout of being "that guy" at their own DZ.

I apologize if it came across harsh, but I really dont have much patience with it anymore. i just tell it how it is, here and in person.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[DSE 3]

gotcha. Nope, I don't think you're harsh; words are far less harsh than the reality if things turn to crap in the jump. However, your wording had me thinking you were under the impression that Jarrett was the OP or defending the OP.

[tdog 0]

Quote

And the worst part of all this is: Now pay attention Jarrett.... you refuse to honor anyone's opinion or advice of jumpers with thousands of jumps of experience, because you think you know it all.

Congratulations... You have become "one of those". Specifically, instead of finding constructive criticism, you have a lengthy post bashing point by point a fellow skydiver, someone in our community - someone who should be a friend - by criticising their personal flying skills ('no control of your body in flight') and intelligence ('fucking retarded') - with the skygod attitude that you must pay attention to someone because of their jump numbers. And you pull out this old "Jarrett still has not learned his lesson" argument...

In the spirit of constructive criticism, so I don't become "one of those" too, how about re-posting with suggestions instead of criticisms?

(Note - I had no clue what a Vladiball was, so this thread had good educational dialog, so we should thank our friend for posting)

[Vectracide 0]

Hey bro, you can see things how you want to see them. Its all up to interpretation. I merely stated facts, which cannot be refuted, but I will no be baited into your twisting of my words. A normal person, with the right experience and judgement knows exactly what I am talking about in my post.

See you in August.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[DougH 270]

Quote

Congratulations... You have become "one of those". Specifically, instead of finding constructive criticism, you have a lengthy post bashing point by point a fellow skydiver, someone in our community - someone who should be a friend - by criticising their personal flying skills ('no control of your body in flight') and intelligence ('fucking retarded') -

I don't see the point in the need for sugar coating. We are all adult experinced skydivers, we aren't a 5 jump students that need our feelings protected. If you need information that could save your life, or keep you from killing some one else to be sugar coated then you need to put the big boy undies on and buck up!

Personally I don't want my "elders" in the sport to sugar coat stuff for me. I don't want to be coddled in situations where I should be getting some sense to be smacked into me.

I bet some of the sports originals got a lot of tough love.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[tdog 0]

Quote

I don't see the point in the need for sugar coating.

Did I say sugar coat it? No, I said, give constructive criticism. Instead of tearing apart; build. You could say, "I believe you are going to get seriously hurt, perhaps you should consider using..." That is to the point, expresses the concern, and gives SOLUTIONS.

[DougH 270]

Quote

Quote

I don't see the point in the need for sugar coating.

Did I say sugar coat it? No, I said, give constructive criticism. Instead of tearing apart; build. You could say, "I believe you are going to get seriously hurt, perhaps you should consider using..." That is to the point, expresses the concern, and gives SOLUTIONS.

Fair enough... after seeing the video what are your constructive suggestions?

Does the flying in the video look like what you would expect from some one with the minimum 200 recommended jumps?

Does the dive look like it is in control and properly planned?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Cashmanimal 0]

Quote

Quote

***
Does the dive look like it is in control and properly planned?

I would have to say the blatant answer is no, of course it does not LOOK planned. I think it was our prior planning that allowed us to instill some degree of safety into this.

I am sure had the ball been weighted correctly, or if we had a vladiball or whatever prior solution that could have been applied were present, it would have been a happy skydive with many passes of the ball, conservative flying and everything done by the book.

My personal opinion (in my now 168 jumps) is that there has to be some settling done in every situation. If I threw the ball and it went down and all 4 of us gave up and I posted the video I would have received 10 posts telling me that my/our decision to let a catchable ball go was idiotic and could have killed somebody and crashed 7 feet underground and killed a whole herd of cattle on the way down.

BUT, I chose to chase a catchable ball which played into one possible out discussed before the jump. And in doing so, I have now created a situation where I am being told I have no flying ability, I am retarded, and have no business in the sky. Thanks to whoever posted on youtube that I would have no business handling jell-o if I met you in person. (deleted, by the way).

Example: Do you deploy on your back? I would assume that most people around here would agree that no, that would not be considered a good idea. But lets say for some outrageous reason you have a cutaway and are spinning on your back at 1000 feet, or lower? (IT'S AN EXAMPLE). You are not supposed to deploy on your back. BUT, you are not supposed to hit the ground either. This would be an (extreme) case of what I mean by give and take.

Basically, no matter what we did on this jump, somebody would have had something to say. So I agree... there is constructive criticism, and then there is blatant flaming.

Yeah, I almost DID get hit with a skyball in a head down. Do i 'know' a headdown? I would happily look you in the face and say no. But with one other person in my airspace, one of which was in my field of vision, I made the decision to use it to the extent that I know to chase the ball. And hey, what do you know, I got there. Perhaps it wasn't pretty, correct, or what some would consider 'safe." But I was on a Cessna load with 4 jumpers, two of which had tracked away, and one in my field of vision. I was not in an otter load with the danger of back-tracking underneath or into the 6-way that exited before me.

So, people will say what they will say. I feel I am mature enough to see through the overwhelming loads of bullshit and find the learning experience in what people say. I don't have 1000 jumps. I don't have 500, or 200 jumps. But I would be willing to guess that anybody who isn't hard-headed and stubborn will tell you they learn something on every skydive, ESPECIALLY those with 10,000+ jumps. I just hope that flipping through these forums doesn't discourage any student who might, and most likely is browsing the forums because they think every time they do something someone will be crawling of their ass instead of teaching them what they can do better.

I don't know the people who do it personally. They don't know me. This is a forum on a website where people can hide behind an alias if they choose. I have never jumped with most of the people here, and probably won't. I have made no claims to being a sky god or anything close to it. I have been told in person by highly experienced people that I fly like somebody with many more jumps than I actually have. I don't let it go to my head, I take it as a compliment and continue on the learning curve I am on. Sure, I fly a camera and have been for a handful of jumps. I don't meet the suggested number of jumps. I don't doubt my ability to fly reasonably, otherwise I wouldn't do it. Of course I don't have the experience of others, and in understanding that I have assumed the risk of having to deal with a malfunction, snag, or whatever else may come along and plan to deal with it to the best of my knowledge, abilities, and experience.

I am used to hearing about it on the forums. The forums don't run my life. They provide some very useful information once you sift through it all. I just think some people could take a step back and look at their approach.

So I guess I will just take all the fun out of it for those and say that yes, this was a horrific skydive. It happens. All four people who left the plane landed in the landing area and had a good laugh about it. 'Tis part of the sport. Have you ever had a bad exit? Ever been a little unstable on an exit for no reason other than it happens?

So anyway. Vladiballs, huh? Been lookin into them. They look like a worthwhile investment! Thanks for the suggestion. And for those who provided PM's with specific weights for freeflying vs. belly flying, thank you very much, it was all very helpful.

And to those who have nothing better to say than horrific criticism, ruthless flaming and in general provide nothing positive or even remotely useful to this forum, people's advancement, or possibly even the sport in general:

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Thanks!

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

• Quote

[DougH 270]

Quote

So, people will say what they will say. I feel I am mature enough to see through the overwhelming loads of bullshit and find the learning experience in what people say.

I guess the SIM is full of bullshit, good thing you saw through some of the crap in there!

It is all in good fun, I will buy you a beer or a jump down the road.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Cashmanimal 0]

Well I guess I couldn't be completely clear in MY rambling response....

While I agree with some in that the SIM needs to be brought up to date, I in no way meant to put it down, in that case I was specifically referring to verbal pushers.

Now, don't let that lead you to think I have any better suggestions at the time... I don't feel I have anything to offer for the SIM that is much better than what has governed the skydiving community for plenty of years now. I mean along the lines of, you know, at least some pictures. If any sport is over-documented on film, it's this one. But that is for another topic.

I respect the guidelines and requirements the SIM puts forward. Stressing specifically the guidelines. 200 jumps is a GREAT number to suggest to start flying a camera. It gives way to experience, but allows younger people to the sport to have their shot too. But once again, a guideline, not a law. Students are required to have an AAD, licensed jumpers are not, by a law in the SIM at least, not referring to specific dropzone laws, of course. It's a bad idea, but not against any law. Students may not jump a camera, licensed jumpers are suggested to wait til 200 jumps. As stated before, I wanted to be sure of my flying ability before dawning a camera. Once I was sure of my abilities and spoke to as well as JUMPED with countless experienced people, made the decision to do so. There are a number of people on these forums who have openly admitted to not being able to stand up landings after hundreds of jumps, flare evenly, or have ever even touched their risers on Canopy flight. Hence guidline, not law. Maybe camera before 200 is a bad, or not-so-good idea. But not law. Personal choice.

There is no law saying we can't get permission from our DZO and S&TA to take a tennis ball filled with BB's and a pull-up chord out over the desert and throw it back and forth. Until there is, I assure you we are not the only people doing it.

The SIM is not full of bullshit, cocky inconsiderate posters are. For all I know, these people could be some 45 year old fat guy sitting at home that learned everything he knows from watching Real TV and browsing the DZ.com forums while flipping through this month's parachutist. OR, he/she could be an absolute badass that hasn't made a mistake since his/her first solo on jump 14. If so, I would love to see them jump... and would specifically avoid ever jumping with them for fear that my inferiority would be enough for them to reem me on the ground , no matter how successful and fun the jump was.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[jdatc 0]

Quote

I'm too lazy to find the reg but it isn't illegal to use a space ball. The wording is something like "as long as care is taken not to harm persons or property on the ground."

I am lazy too, but I love looking up shit like this-

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/AD2EBDA6370BB404852566CF0061287A?OpenDocument

Quote

Sec. 91.15

Dropping objects.

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

Reasonable precuations...

rea·son·a·ble
1. agreeable to reason or sound judgment
2. not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason
3. moderate,
4. endowed with reason.
5. capable of rational behavior, decision, etc.

pre·cau·tion
1. An action taken in advance to protect against possible danger, failure, or injury
2. Caution practiced in advance; forethought or circumspection

I searched the sim and there is no mention of "sky ball"... anyone find that?


Remember though, it's all in fun, but let the pilot know as you'd burn him bad if things went wrong....

[Cashmanimal 0]

yeah, as logical order would follow, I decided to scower (sp?) the SIM AFTER my previous post for some info on skyball and didn't find anything. I was using the downloadable PDF form, and didn't really have time to search for any other form (skydive ball, or something like that).

Quote

Sec. 91.15

Dropping objects.

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

I had brought that up lately when flipping through the FAR/AIM and applied it directly to skyball. AS a balloon pilot for three years, we were always sure to let passengers know that throwing anything out of the balloon was illegal, as it was quite tempting.

However, for all our ballooning competitions we use bags of sand with very long tails on them and throw them out of the balloon at targets. Or for those of you who have made it to the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta, this applies directly to the key drop. (You are given a house key and must take off at least 2 miles away, then try and fly over a house parked at the Fiesta field. Then, you drop the key, and if you make it in the chimney, you win the house). Every day the Balloon Fiesta attracts thousands upon THOUSANDS of onlookers, especially on competition day. (Pole grab, etc.). There i a small buffer zone, maybe a couple hundred feet for onlookers. But I always wondered about pilots making desperate throws (which always happens) from a few hundred feet + up in the air. Balloons are not the most precise flying machines, so when pilots get close, they know it is probably their only chance. To date, nobody has been hit by flying keys or sandbags (knock on wood).

I figured this applied directly to skyball, as the pilot was aware of what we were doing, and precautions being way out over the desert.

Now, I am assuming skydivers are considered an object being dropped out of an airplane, with proper precautions? (parachute). So, this would be why not much technical preparation is required past DZO, S&TA and the pilot for skyball? (Such as including it in a NOTAM?)

Edited to add some details.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[SurfFlite 0]

Having dealt with the developement, testing and marketing launch of the Vladiball here is what we found.

a) If by chance you don't catch the ball and it opens, the lead shot disipates over a very large area before it reaches the ground (~200 foot radius area from 1300ft up)

b) The individual pieces of lead shot has a terminal velocity of only 7-12 MPH, thus when it does hit the ground it is fairly harmless. (ever shot a 12 gage shotgun straight up in the air then let the shot rain down? Same affect.)

A group of us actually stood under a Vladiball in Eloy, precision dropped by Omar from under canopy several times. Nobody died or were injured. A good dust storms sand hurts more.:)

c) A Vladiball weighing 1 lb. 3.8 ounces, (560 grams) falls at ~155 MPH and has been proven to work well with most freeflyers.

Belly flying works best with a ball weighing ~0.9 lb. (400 grams).

d) Slight adjustments to the tail length affects stability of the ball. Start at 6" long and cut 1/8"- 1/4" off at a time

Kerry