HELP! Army regulation for skydiving line of duty ?'s

[Ragnarok 0]

I have been looking for the reg covering line of duty for skydiving as a hobby (not airbornd operations).

My Chain of Command is ordering me to provide proof that I can skydive, or I will be ordered not to.

It is a huge ple of bullshit, forking whuffos too scared to try and too ignorant to leave me alone.

I have only found an article written by a a JAG legal clerk that line of duty covers skydiving because it is considered "Normal activity", not dangerous and stupid like running with the bulls.

Can anyone help me out? Anything will be greatly appreciated.

Steve

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[EvilEagle 0]

In the AF we just have to fill out "high-risk activity" paperwork with your commander. Just like riding a motorcycle...

Sorry.

[BIGUN 1,053]

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/milarticles/bllod.htm

You may need to go to the local JAG office for the infomration you need.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Ragnarok 0]

Quote

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/milarticles/bllod.htm

You may need to go to the local JAG office for the infomration you need.

I already found this and qouted it, but it was looked by my Seinor NCO as "a smart ass answer".

I found DOD Directive 1330.4, but I am still looking for more.

Thanks

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[slotperfect 7]

I have the MWR regulation at work. I'll send it to you when I get in today. What unit are you in?

Arrive Safely

John

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/milarticles/bllod.htm

You may need to go to the local JAG office for the infomration you need.[/reply

Agreed. Your JAG is there to do this work for you. They might even see it as a fun little challenge. Though they'd probably appreciate it if you can point them in the right direction with anything you can get off of this forum.

• Quote

[CDRINF 1]

This has been touched on before in the Forums. I am in the Army and fairly far up the ladder in terms of rank and command. AR 600-8-4 Line of Duty Policy generally states that the injury will generally always be in Line of Duty unless it involves unauthorized absence, intentional misconduct or willful negligence. Sport parachuting is never specifically mentioned. The applicable passages are in appendix B:

B–9. Rule 9
Injury or death because of erratic or reckless conduct, without regard for personal safety or the safety of others, is not in the line of duty. It is due to misconduct. This rule has its chief application in the operation of a vehicle but may be applied with any deliberate conduct that risks the safety of self or others. "Thrill" or "dare-devil" type activities are also examples of when this rule may be applied.

B–12. Rule 12
The line of duty and misconduct status of a soldier injured or incurring disease or death while taking part in outside activities, such as business ventures, hobbies, contests, or professional or amateur athletic activities, is determined under the same rules as other situations. To determine whether an injury or death is due to willful negligence, the nature of the outside activity should be considered, along with the training and experience of the soldier.

So, as a commander, my job would be to determine if you were skydiving in a manner that could be considered reckless and without due regard for safety. This might include considerations of: are you properly trained; are you following USPA BSRs; are you jumping an out of date reserve; are you violating FARs?

If you need further opinion or backing, talk to the SJA Legal Assistance Office, or the IG (not in terms of an IG complaint, but in terms of them being experts at finding out what the applicable regs are).

Now, bottom line from a common sense point of view (and yes, regs do allow for commander judgment and common sense): Skydiving is not illegal. Your commander cannot stop you from jumping any more than he could order you not to ski, scuba dive, or ride a motorcycle. There is a VERY prominent currently serving 4-star who I am told tried to put out an edict as a brigade commander that none of his officers would ride motorcycles. The IG told him the order would not fly and was in fact not enforceable. (Interestingly enough, this commander was also a skydiver).

That said, there are times when you are attending certain training courses that the military will tell you not to engage in certain high risk activities during the course so as to protect their investment. They can't put you in jail, but they could drop you from the course.

You can also site the example of tacit approval that the Army has actively sponsored sport parachuting for years. See AR 95-1 Flight Regulations: "Army aircraft my be used for the following purposes: ... Support of sport parachute clubs set up by installation commander under AR 215-1" and AR 215-1 MWR para 8-25n. You can also mention that USPAs single largest category of employment for current skydivers is the military (I think you can find it on their website.)

You can also tell them you are corresponding with an active duty, serving battalion commander who has been jumping for almost 20 years and in fact has been injured skydiving with no loss of LOD status

CDR

[nbblood 0]

I concur with all of that.

My unit has a "pass mileage radius". If a soldier travels outside of that radius he/she must be on pass or leave to do so. When I go to my DZ it is outside that radius. I submit a mileage pass every weekend so that I am authorized to be at the DZ. This is the only thing I need to do to make skydiving LOD.

Anyway, now can say you are corresponding with a battalion commander and a field grade staff officer. If necessary they'd be more than welcome to call me and I would be glad to discuss it.

MAJ Blood

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[millertime24 8]

Off topic, but i looked at your profile and saw Ogden as one of your DZ's. Do you know a Dawn Blood?

Blues,

SrA Miller

Muff #5048

[slotperfect 7]

Please use PMs for these types of communications.

Thanks,

Arrive Safely

John

[LouDiamond 1]

As has been mentioned, if you are in a student status, high risk activities can be placed off limits. Otherwise, there is nothing to prevent you from skydiving just like there is nothing to prevent a soldier from riding a motorcycle, scuba diving or bungee jumping. Incidently, motorcycles are high on the list for why soldiers are often hurt or killed.

Since you have been ordered to prove you can participate in these activities( I won't comment on that since I don't know all of the details of why you have been told to do this) there are some things you can use in your favor to put the onus back on them, where it lies in the first place by regulation and achieve your objective.

1. Line of Duty points have already been covered above as well as the manual number. Lets say you go skydiving and break your leg.Unless you can be found to be negligent in some way(drunk, out of date reserve,violation of FAA regs,etc), it will be considered "in line of duty-not due to own misconduct". That is straight from the JAG I spoke to.

2. The Army Safety Program AR 385-10 chapter 6, subsection 6-2, letter a.
This covers poilcy which says soldiers will conduct a CRM(Composite Risk Management) on all of their recreational activities. In simple terms, do a risk assesment matrix on skydiving and everything you do to mitigate the dangers. The manual is very vague in chapter 6 and the few activities it mentions have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish. If you go to your AKO account to the safety tab you can click on the leaders corner and select CRM and learn everything you never wanted to know about CRM. There is a CRM interactive worksheet tool that you can access from the CRM tools and Resources link. Using the CRM Interactive worksheet tool you can run through it and in the end have a filled out DA form 7566 to present to them.You can also go to the CRC link (Combat Readiness Center) and e-mail them.Ask them for information/stats on accidents related to recreational skydiving say for the past 5 years and also ask for stats on say motorcycle/POV/Swimming/Bicycle/BBQ related accidents. I'd bet a paycheck skydiving it is no where near as high as any of those. This will give you statistical proof to help establish your point.

3. You can tell your Command that they should already have a Commanders Motorcycle riders agreement letter and they should modify it to cover high risk activities in general OR you can draft one up yourself(probably get done quicker this way) using the motorcycle agreement as a template. Call it Commanders High risk activity agreement and present it with your findings. If you do the later make sure you include activities like Boating, swimming, scuba diving, skiing, badmiton, petting burning dogs, breathing,etc in the agreement as statistically speaking (see CRC stats) those activities are more likely to result in soldiers getting injured and are therefore high risk. This also means, pretty much everyone in the unit will have to sign one of the forms so you could be labeled a Blue Falcon by your peers.

There is a good deal of info available from your AKO safety page that should be able to help you out. If after all of that, they don't change their stance I would suggest you speak to the JAG. Of course this is all assuming there are no other facts or details that you have not mentioned that have lead them to this position to start with. If you have any questions, you have my number.


EDIT to add: If the command wants to order soldiers not to partake in social activities in their personal time, that a policy should be issued or an order to all Soldiers; unless there is something else going on. Sometimes commands may do this 60 days out from a deployment or other mission. If the command does give you an order you should follow it and then determine whether or not you can appeal it. In which case you should consult with legal assistance where you are.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[slotperfect 7]

Download AR 215-1 here: http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_1.pdf

Search the document for "Sport Parachuting," which is what is referred to in the Army.

The bottom line is that Sport Parachuting is a bona fide and regulated MWR activity. Granted, the Sport Parachute "Club" or "Activity" is a dying breed on Army bases worldwide - there were three clubs on Ft. Bragg when I arrived in 1984, and now they are all gone. Regardless, it is a regulated "High Adventure" MWR activity that is regulated by this AR and the USPA BSRs which are referred to within. I have known several generations of Post Parachute Safety Officers over the years, and each of them said it was important to follow the stipulations in this AR to ensure a line of duty "yes" in the event of an incident (e.g. wearing a helmet).

On top of that, there still exists a high profile sport parachuting organization in the Army - the Golden Knights. Their requirements for application to tryout are oriented toward sport jumps, not military jumps. They jump sport gear, use the USPA rating and licensing system, and follow USPA BSRs. The new team members brought on board every year have to come from somewhere . . . if the clubs are disappearing, and soldiers are ordered not to skydive, where is the Team going to get its jumpers from? The relatively small pool of MFF jumpers is not going to sustain the manning requirements of the Team, expecially with a war on.

Best of luck getting through this situation.

Arrive Safely

John

[matthewcline 0]

AR 360-1 may be are reference that can aide in the argument. It details the requirements for the Golden Knights and how MACOM Commanders can field smaller Demo Teams (Screaming Eagles, All Americans, Silver Wings, Black Daggers).

I worked under this reg for 9 years as a Demo Jumper, it even applies to those who are not on a Team but doing Demo's "as a representative of the Army". His commander may be using that phrase.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[NickDG 23]

>>My Chain of Command is ordering me to provide proof that I can skydive, or I will be ordered not to.
It makes it sound like there'd need to be standing orders that allows scuba and every other off duty activity that can be dangerous. And while I've seen COs that order their command not to engage in sport skydiving for whatever reason, this sounds strange.

This might be a CO wanting someone else to take the responsibility thereby making it easier for him/her to write the "Johnny Letter" home to the parents if anything should happen.

Dear Mr. & Mrs. Trooper,

I'm sorry to inform you that your son Johnny was killed while engaged in an off duty activity known as "skydiving." You son's participation in that activity was allowed by orders originating outside this command.

Sincerely,
LtCol. Covermyass
Commanding

I never realized until later how good we had in the 1970s. Almost every military base where I was stationed, or visited, that had access to helicopters, had a sport parachuting club. Look at any PARACHUTIST magazine from that era and half the news and blurbs were from military clubs.

The club I was with in Hawaii we paid only ten dollars a month in dues (and that went straight into the beer kitty) and we got a lift everyday after work and then all weekend long. The pilots liked us as they had to fly anyway to remain current and doing jump OPs was more fun and interesting than just boring holes in the sky.

Maybe this is an area where USPA could be useful. They could prepare a packet to be sent to COs like yours documenting the long history of military clubs and explaining the risk and reward of skydiving in realistic terms.

You know who really had there heads screwed on straight on this issue? The Russians. The government there subsidized civilian parachuting so any Russian citizen could take a first jump course and then continue to skydive for only a couple of rubles. I remember reading in the early 1980s there were over a million sport parachutists in Russia. But the Russians had an ulterior motive. They knew they could just hand Kolesnikov rifles and uniforms to those one million sport jumpers and they'd have an instant deployable airborne force. And what they lacked in military training could be made up for in sheer numbers. That all stopped when round parachutes went by the wayside. In that sense the worldwide switch to square parachutes struck a mighty blow against communism . . .

NickD BASE 194