Islander Stall

[BaumsAway 0]

Anyone know the story behind this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egg8NIBV2HI

It didn't look like there was much weight on the tail (except for the camera guy). Are Islanders more stall-prone that other jump-planes out there? I also can't believe that the camera guy was able to hold on that long.

[Unstable 8]

Interesting Video - it looks like it started to spin quite a bit as it went into the stall, but it's hard to tell because the ground wasn't always in frame as a reference...

=========Shaun ==========

[boyd38off 0]

Could be wrong, but looks a helluva lot like bad piloting to me... Check out the rudder. It looks like it's in the wrong position to correct for the spin (left rudder)... until the pilot eventually moves the rudder the correct direction (right rudder) and the the spin stops. Anyone else notice this or am i drunk?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out and shouting,
".... holy crap....what a ride!"

[darkwing 4]

Interesting. Often such things are a combination of jumper and pilot errors, but I can't tell in this situation. I hope someone who know the specifics here can tell us.

I was in a Beech D-18 stall a long time ago, and 9 out of ten jumpers were bleeding afterwards. Do your part as a jumper to prevent it. Get a briefing from a seasoned jump pilot and your instructors.

Edit to add: One thing we don't know is what the pilot said, if anything. Did he say to get out? My theory is do what the Pilot says. Uf you are outside, then probably let go.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[tombuch 0]

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Could be wrong, but looks a helluva lot like bad piloting to me... Check out the rudder. It looks like it's in the wrong position to correct for the spin (left rudder)... until the pilot eventually moves the rudder the correct direction (right rudder) and the the spin stops. Anyone else notice this or am i drunk?

It also looks like a really bad response by the jumpers. Obviously there was plenty of altitude when the spin started, but for some reason the folks inside thought it would be appropriate to jump. Just 15 seconds into the event one jumper even yelled "GO GO WE'RE IN A SPIN!" They could easily have slammed into the tail as the pilot was working to save the airplane and killed everybody on board, and a few folks on the ground too. Four jumper got out while the airplane was in an uncontrolled unusual attitude.

I'll note that the pilot shouldn't have allowed that situation to develop, but there is still no excuse for jumping or moving about as the poor dumbasss pilot tries to save the airplane. The whole thing took just 23 seconds from initial spin to full recovery. Clearly that was too long, but folks shouldn't have been exiting.

I've been in that position in a Beaver, and I know the best thing to do is sit as tight as you can and trust the bastard upfront to make things right, and then never ever trust him again.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[bclark 0]

Funny how long that cameraman hung on to the airplane. You would think that upon recognition that the airplane was stalling, let alone SPINNING, he would let go!

Amazing to see them get flung away from the direction of spin. How about that guy who hit the gear?

And how about the guy trying to climb out and hang from the tire? The way he was scraping the back of his rig up against the forward edge of the door, HE was likely to take the tail off!

I bet the pilot was turned around trying to watch that guy hang from the tire instead of flying.

[airtwardo 6]

.... the best thing to do is sit as tight as you can and trust the bastard upfront to make things right, and then never ever trust him again.

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I hear ya Tom...and yes you're right...but it IS a hard thing to do.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bclark 0]

I agree to a point. But what if the aircraft has stalled and entered a spin with a CG that is too far aft for the pilot to recover? Then staying put is going to doom everyone on board because the aircraft cannot be recovered until the CG moves to a recoverable position. And once you are outside of the aircraft (such as that camera guy) depending on the direction of spin you are going to be flung away from the aircraft as he was, or pressed to the side of it.

[divnswoop 0]

An Islander has a far better CG than a Beech 18....You can't see the people in the plane, but this "looks" like VERY poor piloting. When it stalled it went nose down/right side up which means there wasn't a "whole" lot of people in the tail. Scary never-the-less. I have been in a couple stalls at altitude and seen video of several more. Scary place to be

[borgy 0]

If having a group of jumpers at the rear of the aircraft puts the plane outside its CG envelope then it should not be used for group exits. Its the pilots job to load the aircraft in a way that the CG of the aircraft stays within the specified limits from take off to touchdown. Unless the jumpers disobeyed instructiuons given by the pilot its 100% the pilots fault. And I agree getting out of a stalled aircraft is close to retarted.

I only trust two people in this world, one of them is me and the other one aint you.
Nicolas Cage as Cameron Poe in "Con Air"

[AggieDave 6]

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f having a group of jumpers at the rear of the aircraft puts the plane outside its CG envelope then it should not be used for group exits.

Then you shouldn't jump a CASA, Skyvan, King Air, Caravan...

Every plane has a CG that needs to be respected by the jumpers. I've seen and talked to people that were on a really bad Casa stall at a boogie a few years ago. I've had the tail of a King Air drop on me while I was a floater for a jump.

Its not just one person on the load, its an entire skydiving movement to respect our A/C. With out that universal understanding and respect its not going to get us anywhere but in trouble.

Knowing what to do in an A/C emergency is important too. Having an engine out in a 182 at 1200ft isn't going to necessarily kill you. If you're sitting by the door and you pop the door to get out, you might have just created a situation that kills the pilot and the two people in the back of the plane, for instance.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 6]

I've had the tail of a King Air drop on me while I was a floater for a jump.

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Go figure!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bclark 0]

Yes, I agree. In a perfect world all pilots do intensive W+B calculations to ensure that their CG's remain in limits during all phases of flight. And in a perfect world aircraft are never operated over max gross weight. But in the real world there are many circumstances (particularly in the skydiving world) where aircraft have been overloaded, and variations in loading and group exits cause aircraft to be operated outside the envelope. Have you ever seen a 16 way team plus cameraman stack a gripped exit in an Otter? I would be highly surprised if the airplane was within CG limits in this condition. (I might be wrong but I doubt it.) And when the airplane stalls and they all hang on / stay put what happens now?

[borgy 0]

Most aircraft that I have jumped from in Australia have placard stating the procedures for group exits from a aircraft and have procedures to allow these exits to be made in a way that will not stall the plane. For example the drop zone i jump from uses a pac 750 if we are doing an 6way exit or bigger we are required to tell the pilot. There is then a requirement for all other people in the aircraft to remain as far forward as possible and for there to be at least 2 people at the front of the plane, the pilot also increases run in speed. Now I haven't looked at a Pac 750's weight and balance chart either and I don't know if the plane is within its published limitations either but I do take comfort in the fact that the pilot and dzo are taking steps to at least reduce the chance of a stall.

I only trust two people in this world, one of them is me and the other one aint you.
Nicolas Cage as Cameron Poe in "Con Air"

[ryoder 1,412]

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Funny how long that cameraman hung on to the airplane. You would think that upon recognition that the airplane was stalling, let alone SPINNING, he would let go!

Going through cameraman's mind:

"Oh, shit, a spin! Oh,wait, this'll be some really cool video! Wonder how long I can hang on......"

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[bclark 0]

Borgy,
That is awesome! I was brought up the same way. My home DZ had a Beech 18 and Twin Bonanza. We did the same thing. When there was going to be alot of weight in the back we told the pilot. The rest of the load remained forward until that group left. We had signs in the airplane reminding people to think about CG. Now I jump at an Otter DZ. People who grow up jumping out of Otters don't seem to be taught this as much.

You can stall em all, but some airplanes are much more stable than others.

[LongWayToFall 0]

One guy hit the tire pretty hard, is that his chute open right after? Wonder if it was a premi?

[TheSecret 0]

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I'll note that the pilot shouldn't have allowed that situation to develop, but there is still no excuse for jumping or moving about as the poor dumbasss pilot tries to save the airplane. The whole thing took just 23 seconds from initial spin to full recovery. Clearly that was too long, but folks shouldn't have been exiting.

Yeah but they don't know if the pilot can stop the spin. We can see now it was just 23 seconds, but for all they knew at the time that plane could spin all the way to the ground.

I'm sure looking at an open door in a out of control aircraft looked very tempting to them.

Life is good

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[ryoder 1,412]

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Yeah but they don't know if the pilot can stop the spin. We can see now it was just 23 seconds, but for all they knew at the time that plane could spin all the way to the ground.

I'm sure looking at an open door in a out of control aircraft looked very tempting to them.

I agree.

A vidiot once told me the story of being in a Caravan in a spin. He was right beside the door, but the G-forces had him forced against the wall of the plane so hard he didn't have the strength to move. I can understand the point that exiting jumpers run the risk of damaging the tail. But on the other hand, if the plane went into the stall due to aft CG, and the jumpers are still in the tail, how do we know the pilot will even be able to recover it? It is probably easier to get out the door if you are in the tail, rather than try to work your way toward the front, especially if the spin is accelerating. I can't blame jumpers for saving their own lives. Yes, there is a risk of damaging the plane, but the weight leaving just might save it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[diablopilot 2]

Anyone see the jumper sitting unnecessarily in the tail while the others were climbing out?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tombuch 0]

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Yeah but they don't know if the pilot can stop the spin. We can see now it was just 23 seconds, but for all they knew at the time that plane could spin all the way to the ground.

It is the jumpers responsibility to follow the commands of the pilot, even if they think he is an idiot. It's his airplane, and his decision. If he wants the weight redistributed, then he can command an exit. If he thinks he can't recover, he can command an exit. If he's working like heck to save the airplane and everybody in it, he needs to know the jumpers will stay put and not contribute to the problem.

Getting word from the pilot isn't a big deal or a hardship. It just means somebody up near him needs to make eye contact, shout, or otherwise get an instant of his attention. Chances are the pilot is looking for a brief instant in the madness to communicate anyway. From there the jumpers simply communicate with each other. It takes leadership from the front of the airplane, and the back of the airplane. That's tough to deliver, but it is critical.

I've been on some loads that turned into real pig fucks because of individual jumpers who thought only about themselves, and I've been in other nasty situations where the load clung together and made it though without risking the flight.

Unless the guys in the video were told to get out by the pilot (and we don't know if that is or is not the case), then they were idiots. No amount of "oh shit there I was..." changes that.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[DougH 270]

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Anyone see the jumper sitting unnecessarily in the tail while the others were climbing out?

Yes.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[CSpenceFLY 1]

We have no way of knowing the pilot didn't call for them to exit.

[hackish 8]

At the 1:00 mark you hear someone faintly yell "go go everyone out". Perhaps the pilot? Then a jumper yells "go go we're in a spin" Would be interesting if someone were on that load and could comment. I figure a decent rule of thumb is if you're already out let go otherwise see what the pilot says.

-Michael

[CSpenceFLY 1]

If you watch the video you will see that when the spotter calls for 5 left the pilot uses the rudder to make the correction. I am betting that he was still holding the left rudder down somewhat when the stall happened. That would explain how quickly the spin developed.

If I were poised to exit when I felt a stall happening I would go. That would include being right inside the door. People leaving as a stall develops can do no harm.

IMO that stall lasted way too long. That is about the limit to the time I would give the pilot before I got the hell out.