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gemini 0
Wow!
Sounds like you need a break to recharge.
If it's not fun anymore, makes you angry at everyone, and apparently not profitable, why do you do it?
Blue skies,
Jim
Sounds like you need a break to recharge.
If it's not fun anymore, makes you angry at everyone, and apparently not profitable, why do you do it?
Blue skies,
Jim
***QuoteWow!
Sounds like you need a break to recharge.
If it's not fun anymore, makes you angry at everyone, and apparently not profitable, why do you do it?
Answer! "The bank demands it"
Question? You wanna buy a DZ and get rich? Give me a call!
10.5 months of the year 12 to 14 hours a day, earning a wage that is less than the current US minimum will make you "Need a brake to recharge" very quickly!
If I were the CEO of a large company and was putting in the same amount of time, effort, and assuming the same risk, I would be bankrolling millions a year!
"The unappreciated few! DZOs"
.
gemini 0
Made my last post while you were writing yours. Sorry.
Yes, but I get tired of hearing "I make no money off fun jumpers!" Would it not be prudent or an excercise in common sense for the DZO to minimize the problems by not antagonizing his customers?
Excellent question. I think many DZO's are to close to their customers which is reinforced by your comment "...it is US!"
The DZO is a businessman who should be trying to provide services at the best cost to his customers while maintaining a reasonable profit margin. In skydiving we also have to include "and maintaining recognized safety standards."
Without a profit you are done. Without customers you are done. Without safety and maintainance programs you are done.
Yep we are exactly the same on that point.
Where we differ is that you want to get rid of the problem as you see it, and I see it as an area that needs help and improvement. If I can help one DZO improve his business in some way, I am a happy camper.
Wrong attitude in business! Rule number 1 is you have to make a profit "on everything you do". No don't get me wrong. I like to do things and give some of them away too! But I have to know what I have made first, and what I'm giving away will cost me second, before I can make a decision to do it for free or at a discount. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE PLANS FOR REIMBURSEMENT. You can give it up later if that's what you want to do.
I would put them on hold, or look for alternatives, look for help, etc. I have to always remember that my plans are not the only plans and, believe it or not, I am not always right.
Sometimes the most profitable services are those that are the most difficult, or those that cause the most turmoil in the organization. You should determine what those "difficulties" cost you before you make a decision.
Of course! But do you know what that fair price is?
Do you fully understand your costs per jump and the amount you are loosing? If you do not, how are you going to explain it to the experienced jumper when asked?
You just can't say "I'm loosing money on each jump" anymore. How much? Why? What changed?
Sometimes, at a turbine dz, the solution is simple; like raising the minimum load by one more jumper.
Do you have established manifest rules that everyone understands? I bet not. A lot of complaints arise when jumpers can't manifest, the next open load is 70 minutes away, or a jumper gets bumped.
As I said earlier the best load is a mixed load of tandems, students and fun jumpers. The goal is to fly full. If you have one empty seat and the plane takes off, you make less. Concentrate on maximizing the loads, and the number of loads you fly during the day.
That may mean a max of 3-4 tandems on an Otter, and the rest students and fun jumpers. If you have no tandems that day, get the fun jumpers and students in the air. If you have only a few fun jumpers, add more tandems, but keep the fun jumpes you have flying. That's a few extra dollars and if it causes you to fly 20 loads one day instead of 18 (because they all got mad and left early) you come out ahead.
Amen! Unfortuantely we will always have complainers and those who want everything for free or at a discount. Most business problems are caused by 10% of the customers and employees, sometimes you just have to send them to your competitor! But don't cut-out an entire business segment because of the few rotten apples.
I don't know you and you don't know me. However, I am glad we get to air our differences because it benefits more than just you and me.
The things I say, I believe in and have put into practice at a large number of businesses including skydiving. If you are working by yourself, you cannot possibly do everything you want to do, or even needs to be done. Tackle one thing at a time and fix it.
At the end of the month, step back and reassess what has been done and what comes next.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck and much success.
Blue skies,
Jim
QuoteIf you as an experienced jumper "Know" that there is little or no profit in the service you require, would it not be prudent or an exercise of common sense to minimize the problems associated with your requirements
Yes, but I get tired of hearing "I make no money off fun jumpers!" Would it not be prudent or an excercise in common sense for the DZO to minimize the problems by not antagonizing his customers?
QuoteThan why if they are the the group whom needs for the sport to survive the most, do a few of them do everything possible to derail the process?
Excellent question. I think many DZO's are to close to their customers which is reinforced by your comment "...it is US!"
The DZO is a businessman who should be trying to provide services at the best cost to his customers while maintaining a reasonable profit margin. In skydiving we also have to include "and maintaining recognized safety standards."
Without a profit you are done. Without customers you are done. Without safety and maintainance programs you are done.
Quote...if there is something, or an activity that I hold near and dear I will do everything possible to nurture and protect it!
Yep we are exactly the same on that point.
Where we differ is that you want to get rid of the problem as you see it, and I see it as an area that needs help and improvement. If I can help one DZO improve his business in some way, I am a happy camper.
QuoteIf it costs more I pay, if it needs outside support, I go out of my way with no plans for reinbursement,
Wrong attitude in business! Rule number 1 is you have to make a profit "on everything you do". No don't get me wrong. I like to do things and give some of them away too! But I have to know what I have made first, and what I'm giving away will cost me second, before I can make a decision to do it for free or at a discount. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE PLANS FOR REIMBURSEMENT. You can give it up later if that's what you want to do.
Quote...if my demands are more than can be supported than I forget them,
I would put them on hold, or look for alternatives, look for help, etc. I have to always remember that my plans are not the only plans and, believe it or not, I am not always right.
QuoteI attempt to minimize any difficulity that may be associated with my pursuence of the activity!
Sometimes the most profitable services are those that are the most difficult, or those that cause the most turmoil in the organization. You should determine what those "difficulties" cost you before you make a decision.
QuoteExperienced jumpers would do themselves a great service if they were to pay a fair amount with a profit for jumps
Of course! But do you know what that fair price is?
Do you fully understand your costs per jump and the amount you are loosing? If you do not, how are you going to explain it to the experienced jumper when asked?
You just can't say "I'm loosing money on each jump" anymore. How much? Why? What changed?
Sometimes, at a turbine dz, the solution is simple; like raising the minimum load by one more jumper.
QuoteUnderstand that everyone is attempting to use the aircraft at exactly the same time, and understand thay they will return when many of the other person there that day will not!
Do you have established manifest rules that everyone understands? I bet not. A lot of complaints arise when jumpers can't manifest, the next open load is 70 minutes away, or a jumper gets bumped.
As I said earlier the best load is a mixed load of tandems, students and fun jumpers. The goal is to fly full. If you have one empty seat and the plane takes off, you make less. Concentrate on maximizing the loads, and the number of loads you fly during the day.
That may mean a max of 3-4 tandems on an Otter, and the rest students and fun jumpers. If you have no tandems that day, get the fun jumpers and students in the air. If you have only a few fun jumpers, add more tandems, but keep the fun jumpes you have flying. That's a few extra dollars and if it causes you to fly 20 loads one day instead of 18 (because they all got mad and left early) you come out ahead.
Quote...and become supports and providers for the sport and not the profitless burden that they can sometime be!
Amen! Unfortuantely we will always have complainers and those who want everything for free or at a discount. Most business problems are caused by 10% of the customers and employees, sometimes you just have to send them to your competitor! But don't cut-out an entire business segment because of the few rotten apples.
I don't know you and you don't know me. However, I am glad we get to air our differences because it benefits more than just you and me.
The things I say, I believe in and have put into practice at a large number of businesses including skydiving. If you are working by yourself, you cannot possibly do everything you want to do, or even needs to be done. Tackle one thing at a time and fix it.
At the end of the month, step back and reassess what has been done and what comes next.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck and much success.
Blue skies,
Jim
NickDG 23
Here's how I see the problem . . .
There's simply too many drop zones!
Besides the good things tandem jumping brought along it also allowed a period of every man a DZO. In the old days anyone could open a DZ, and right away you'd get all the grounded and disgruntled jumpers from other DZs, but you'd still have to struggle for ten years to become established and most start up DZ didn't make it at all.
Tandem changed all that and a bunch of people became DZOs to cash in. Now there are so many of you guys you're eating each other alive and operating on razor thin margins.
If you don't have deep regard for the sport, and I mean it's your life and you totally know there's nothing more you'd rather do, then do the sport a favor and go sell used cars. You'll make more money, have less headaches, and for most of you it was your passed over calling.
Most of us skydiving professionals, instructors, riggers, and pilots, never made a dime in skydiving, except for eating money once in a while. Why should you prima donnas be any different? And while its natural to look back once in a blue moon and wonder what if, most pros I know wouldn't trade away their lifetime of fun and great friendships for anything.
All we need is one good DZ in every major city. Then they'd all get enough business to run first class operations. Some of you parasites, especially the ones who begrudgingly allow up-jumpers, but are teetering on the edge of being tandem mills need to close the doors and go home. Money, money money, boo-hoo for you . . .
NickD 
QuoteHere's how I see the problem . . .
There's simply too many drop zones!Besides the good things tandem jumping brought along it also allowed a period of every man a DZO. In the old days anyone could open a DZ, and right away you'd get all the grounded and disgruntled jumpers from other DZs, but you'd still have to struggle for ten years to become established and most start up DZ didn't make it at all.Quote
I agree!Tandem changed all that and a bunch of people became DZOs to cash in. Now there are so many of you guys you're eating each other alive and operating on razor thin margins.Quote
I agree!If you don't have deep regard for the sport, and I mean it's your life and you totally know there's nothing more you'd rather do, then do the sport a favor and go sell used cars. You'll make more money, have less headaches, and for most of you it was your passed over calling.Quote
I agree!Most of us skydiving professionals, instructors, riggers, and pilots, never made a dime in skydiving, except for eating money once in a while. Why should you prima donnas be any different? And while its natural to look back once in a blue moon and wonder what if, most pros I know wouldn't trade away their lifetime of fun and great friendships for anything.Quote
I agree!All we need is one good DZ in every major city. Then they'd all get enough business to run first class operations. Some of you parasites, especially the ones who begrudgingly allow up-jumpers, but are teetering on the edge of being tandem mills need to close the doors and go home. Money, money money, boo-hoo for you . . .***Quote
But it should not be that way? How can you say "Skydiving Professional", and "never made a dime" in the same sentence,? I and many others have (Quote) giving back to the sport, many, many, times, we owe no debt! I have had a great time since 1977, made many friends and have memories that cannot be taken away, but it is unreasonable to ask to be paid a fair price for a fair service? Question? Do you work all week for free? If you do and you conplain, I understand!
Again I agree! But like it or not, a Drop Zone is a business, and all businesses must make a profit! If it were not to make a profit it would be called a Hobby! Know of anyone making a living from a Hobby?
.
billvon 2,416
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>I have had a great time since 1977, made many friends and
>have memories that cannot be taken away, but it is unreasonable to ask
>to be paid a fair price for a fair service?
It is not unreasonable at all to ask. It's also not unreasonable for skydivers to go where that "fair price" is lower.
> Question? Do you work all week for free? If you do and you conplain,
>I understand!
I often work all weekend, doing AFF one day, video the next. I get paid for that. I also jump for fun, buy stuff at Square 1 (replacement linesets, gloves, visors etc.) If I can "zero out" on the average I'm pretty happy.
There are other people who support themselves completely on skydiving, make house payments, eat occasionally etc and that's fine too. Just not important to me, since I have another job.
>But like it or not, a Drop Zone is a business, and all businesses must
>make a profit! If it were not to make a profit it would be called a Hobby!
>Know of anyone making a living from a Hobby?
Actually, I do. But there are plenty of businesses out there who lose money; the only requirement is, in the long run, to not lose much more money than you make.
>have memories that cannot be taken away, but it is unreasonable to ask
>to be paid a fair price for a fair service?
It is not unreasonable at all to ask. It's also not unreasonable for skydivers to go where that "fair price" is lower.
> Question? Do you work all week for free? If you do and you conplain,
>I understand!
I often work all weekend, doing AFF one day, video the next. I get paid for that. I also jump for fun, buy stuff at Square 1 (replacement linesets, gloves, visors etc.) If I can "zero out" on the average I'm pretty happy.
There are other people who support themselves completely on skydiving, make house payments, eat occasionally etc and that's fine too. Just not important to me, since I have another job.
>But like it or not, a Drop Zone is a business, and all businesses must
>make a profit! If it were not to make a profit it would be called a Hobby!
>Know of anyone making a living from a Hobby?
Actually, I do. But there are plenty of businesses out there who lose money; the only requirement is, in the long run, to not lose much more money than you make.
Fast 0
QuoteQuoteJump prices for experienced skydivers at my dropzone don't turn a profit. They cover the cost of putting the plane in the air.
At my dropzone the jumper pays $23 per jump. A full plane of 23 jumpers costs $11 per slot, fuel at $5 per gallon is around $5.43 per jumper per load, pilot get $0.65 per jumper per load.
This returns a gross margin to the DZ of $5.92 per jumper per jump or 25.7% from which the DZ pays overhead expenses. The breakeven load is $18 jumpers at $5 per gallon fuel.
A DZO has to have the discipline to not fly fewer than the breakeven humber of jumpers on any fun jump load, or to mix tandems, students and fun jumpers on each load.
It must be nice to have enough money to own your own planes. Those numbers are WAY off the mark in terms of what we have to pay to put a slot on the plane at my DZ. Things change when you have to lease a turbine. It's possible to operate that way when you have the capital up front to get started. The dz I am involved with has been in operation since the 60s and owns a cessna but has to lease a turbine. Were a club dz, so we aren't trying to turn a profit for anyone, but if we were to charge prices that got anywhere near what you do in profit, it would be high 20s for sure. The point in that is, when everyone else around you does own a plane, we have to opt to let the tandems pay for overhead so that all the experienced jumpers dont, uh.. jump ship.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
NickDG 23
>>Some of you parasites
You know what? That post was a bit stronger than I meant to make it. I really don't feel that way about the majority of DZOs I know.
Carry on . . .
NickD
QuoteIt is not unreasonable at all to ask. It's also not unreasonable for skydivers to go where that "fair price" is lower.
That has now and will always be the privilage of any and all jumpers!
QuoteI often work all weekend, doing AFF one day, video the next. I get paid for that. I also jump for fun, buy stuff at Square 1 (replacement linesets, gloves, visors etc.) If I can "zero out" on the average I'm pretty happy.
Most Staff jumpers I know feel the same as you, and to that I agree! It is a very different circumstance if you are the DZO with the investment and financial responsibility!
QuoteThere are other people who support themselves completely on skydiving, make house payments, eat occasionally etc and that's fine too. Just not important to me, since I have another job.
Again your situation and requirements to survive and pay bills are totally different than mine or many DZOs This IS our living!
QuoteActually, I do. But there are plenty of businesses out there who lose money; the only requirement is, in the long run, to not lose much more money than you make.
So you are saying that it is (in your opinion) the norm for experienced jumpers to not show a profit? and that DZOs should not expect to make money operating a Skydiving facility providing service for them? Again is it not a resonable expectation of a business owner to make a profit for a service that they provide? If the job you have now said to you tomorrow that they were going to cut your wages by 1/3 and that you will be expected to perform the same amount of work, Would you not be very unhappy? Would you stay at this position? I think not!
.
AndyMan 7
QuoteWere a club dz, so we aren't trying to turn a profit for anyone, but if we were to charge prices that got anywhere near what you do in profit, it would be high 20s for sure.
I don't know what it's like in the rest of Wisconsin, but in the Chicago area the big DZ's are charging exactly that - high 20's for a jump ticket.
I don't know the details of your aircraft arrangement, but you're flying the single most efficient jump-plane ever built. I have trouble imagining that you can't turn a profit on fun jumps. I suspect the club culture is such that you choose not to.
We can argue this over beer next time you're down.
_Am
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
billvon 2,416
>So you are saying that it is (in your opinion) the norm for experienced
>jumpers to not show a profit?
Yes. Most experienced jumpers spend far more than they make at dropzones.
>and that DZOs should not expect to make money operating a Skydiving
>facility providing service for them?
They can expect whatever they like. Nothing is "owed" to them. I know several DZ's that don't turn a profit on the whole; they just provide a living for a few people and skydiving for a lot of people.
>If the job you have now said to you tomorrow that they were going to cut
>your wages by 1/3 and that you will be expected to perform the same
>amount of work, Would you not be very unhappy?
It would depend on what I was doing. If they said "we're cutting your wages by 1/3, giving you free reign in the power lab and whatever CAD and engineering support services you request" then I'd be quite happy. If not, I might quit.
Likewise, if you find yourself making very little (or no) profit on a business (i.e. it is barely paying salaries, maintenance, depreciation etc) and you dislike it, then by all means, give it up and sell cars. If you like doing it, then by all means, continue.
>jumpers to not show a profit?
Yes. Most experienced jumpers spend far more than they make at dropzones.
>and that DZOs should not expect to make money operating a Skydiving
>facility providing service for them?
They can expect whatever they like. Nothing is "owed" to them. I know several DZ's that don't turn a profit on the whole; they just provide a living for a few people and skydiving for a lot of people.
>If the job you have now said to you tomorrow that they were going to cut
>your wages by 1/3 and that you will be expected to perform the same
>amount of work, Would you not be very unhappy?
It would depend on what I was doing. If they said "we're cutting your wages by 1/3, giving you free reign in the power lab and whatever CAD and engineering support services you request" then I'd be quite happy. If not, I might quit.
Likewise, if you find yourself making very little (or no) profit on a business (i.e. it is barely paying salaries, maintenance, depreciation etc) and you dislike it, then by all means, give it up and sell cars. If you like doing it, then by all means, continue.
QuoteYes. Most experienced jumpers spend far more than they make at dropzones.
Hummmnn? I guess my question is what is it that empowers experienced jumpers to a position, where they should expect service at a bare minimum cost which allows for minimal or no profit to the operation? The choice of spending far more than they earn at the DZ is a personal decision and in no way is to become the responsibility of the DZO, or create a cause for cheap or non profit service!
QuoteThey can expect whatever they like. Nothing is "owed" to them. I know several DZ's that don't turn a profit on the whole; they just provide a living for a few people and skydiving for a lot of people.
Well that water can run both ways! Jumpers can expect whatever they like. Nothing is "owed" them to offer them jumps at bare minimum cost!
If these persons whom provide this living and jumps have existing resources that allow for them to provide the service and live without relying on the business to profit, than more power to them! "But" that type of operation is the exception and not the norm in the rest of the real world.
QuoteIt would depend on what I was doing. If they said "we're cutting your wages by 1/3, giving you free reign in the power lab and whatever CAD and engineering support services you request" then I'd be quite happy. If not, I might quit.
I agree! If I was allowed some time to have a life, a minimal amout of cash, and some opportunities to enjoy things that are important in my life other than operating a DZ, I would be quite happy!
QuoteLikewise, if you find yourself making very little (or no) profit on a business (i.e. it is barely paying salaries, maintenance, depreciation etc) and you dislike it, then by all means, give it up and sell cars. If you like doing it, then by all means, continue.
So it is the general opinion that if you operate a DZ and are not happy to offer experienced jumpers service at cost with very little or no profit, than many jumpers feel you should sell cars to make a living?
If I recall I made the statement earlier, that "we have found the problem and it is US" your approach to this resonable request is exactly the mentality that creates the discord that exists between DZOs and experienced jumpers. This type of approach to the problem will always cause continuing problems and degradation of the sport.
.
gemini 0
QuoteThose numbers are WAY off the mark in terms of what we have to pay to put a slot on the plane at my DZ.
Maybe so, but what I said was "...At my dropzone the jumper pays $23 per jump." and are based on a Twin Otter operation.
QuoteThings change when you have to lease a turbine.
They can. Have you condsidered checking with other aircraft leasing companies to compare rates? There is a wide range of leasing agreements out there. Maybe you just don't have the right lease.
Quote
It's possible to operate that way when you have the capital up front to get started.
We only had a tiny bit of cash and I knew some bankers who were willing to take a chance on us. That's all, nothing else but hard work and perserverance.
QuoteThe dz I am involved with has been in operation since the 60s and owns a cessna but has to lease a turbine.
Ok so your numbers will be different. Does anyone know what they are so you can plan and make intelligent decisions, or do you just quess and hope everything comes out ok?
QuoteWere a club dz, so we aren't trying to turn a profit for anyone...
But I would think the club members would like to at least breakeven so they wouldn't have to keep funding other people's jumps. One of the dzo's posting in this thread asked if experienced jumpers should pay a fair price and I responded yes.
but if we were to charge prices that got anywhere near what you do in profit, it would be high 20s for sure. The point in that is, when everyone else around you does own a plane, we have to opt to let the tandems pay for overhead so that all the experienced jumpers dont, uh.. jump ship.
Blue skies,
Jim
Fast 0
I was in no means trying to be offensive if you took it that way, just get frustrated sometimes with the difficulties of trying to balance the cost of services at our DZ with the cost of doing business and the prices that all our close competition is charging.
None the less, yes someone, me, knows what all the numbers are and we do maintain break even pricing. It's the best we can do at this point.
None the less, yes someone, me, knows what all the numbers are and we do maintain break even pricing. It's the best we can do at this point.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
If you as an experienced jumper "Know" that there is little or no profit in the service you require, would it not be prudent or an exercise of common sense to minimize the problems associated with your requirements?
It is the old "we have identified the enemy and it is US! syndrome!" Tandem customers don't have to make a jump! They do it to fufill a goal or answer a question for themselves. Student jumpers don't have to make a jump they do so to possibly, or maybe in the future be allowed to jump with a friend or with out instruction. So if the sport were to die, or there were less DZ's than the effect on these type of jumpers would be minimal
Experienced jumpers are the exception, they spend the entire week, working for the opportunity to get to the DZ and make some jumps. Than why if they are the the group whom needs for the sport to survive the most, do a few of them do everything possible to derail the process? I don't know how you operate in your world but in mine if there is something, or an activity that I hold near and dear I will do everything possible to nurture and protect it!
If it costs more I pay, if it needs outside support, I go out of my way with no plans for reinbursement, if my demands are more than can be supported than I forget them, I attempt to minimize any difficulity that may be associated with my pursuence of the activity! It is very important to me for this to continue so I can enjoy it!
Experienced jumpers would do themselves a great service if they were to pay a fair amount with a profit for jumps, Complain to some one whom is causing their problems (this person is always found in the refection in the bathroom mirror) Understand that everyone is attempting to use the aircraft at exactly the same time, and understand thay they will return when many of the other person there that day will not! and become supports and providers for the sport and not the profitless burden that they can sometime be!
.
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